More PK stuff...

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Rufusabc, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I was at a tournament this weekend (as a parent, not a referee), and the weather was good and the games were good. I tend to watch games the whole time I'm there (lot's of down time between my daughter's games). And I sit in my chair and referee or coach the match to myself. Passes the time, and I like watching the kids play.

    Here's the play...solid crew who I happened to see 4 times on the weekend, and AR2 has the best view of handling in the area, and he makes the wave and the CR makes the call. Penalty. U17G's.

    Shooter identified, all players in their respective positions, and the 'keeper is on the line repeatedly smacking her gloves together before the whistle as the shooter is lining it up. The smacking sounds like rifle shots, and I'm a hundred yards away sitting way beyond the opposite goal. Whistle. They continue for a total of about 15 smacks. I have never seen that before. The referee did not do anything and the kick was saved, but the rebound was put in.

    So, is it USB? (I'm really not sure.)
    If it is USB, would you pause the kick to admonish the 'keeper, freezing the shooter, and now changing the mindset of the 'keeper.
    And if you think USB, would you go yellow BEFORE the kick, therefore really changing the mindset of the keeper.

    It was loud and repeated and I think it was meant to distract the shooter.

    R
     
  2. Elizondo

    Elizondo Member

    Jul 6, 2009
    USA
    I had a GK do that - once - just as the kicker was approaching the ball for the first kick in KFTM. Big, wide, open armed stance and then SLAPPED his hands together. Very loud, just as you describe.

    The kick was made, but I spoke with the GK in a public manner, even pantomiming the glove slap so that everyone would understand that it would not be tolerated.

    Kicks got to 4-4 and he did it again, and this time the kicker missed. GK was cautioned and the kick retaken and made, to win the match.

    GK offered no complaints.
     
  3. david58

    david58 New Member

    Aug 29, 2003
    Oregon
    Why would that be unsporting? Just asking.....:confused:
     
  4. RichM

    RichM Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 18, 2009
    Meridian, ID
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If, per the ATR, the kicker can't make "any motion of the
    hand or arm which (in the opinion of the referee) is clearly intended to confuse or misdirect the attention of the ‘keeper", then it would seem that the goalkeeper shouldn't be able to "confuse or misdirect the attention of the " kicker, either..
     
  5. glutenfreebaker

    Oct 3, 2009
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't see how you could make that assumption. If there was any intent to include the goalkeeper in this they would have said that the goalkeeper can't distract the kicker.

    Now I don't think the keeper distracting the kicker is fair by any means, but there is no specific guidance on it. The best I can come up with for stopping this would be Unsporting Behavior.

    ATR 12.28.1 line 4: Commits an act which, in the opinion of the referee, shows a lack of respect for the game.

    In the most simplistic terms I would consider the situation described above as "cheating" which I could see a referee deciding that it shows a lack of respect for the game.
     
  6. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Same reason yelling at a player to distract them is USB.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would people here call this unsporting in a stadium of 60,000 people? I didn't know we were supposed to regulate the sound-level during a penalty.

    I'm seeing over-officious refereeing here. You've got a penalty--either through a penal foul during dynamic play or during KFTM. A clap by the goalkeeper is worth a re-take if there's a save? I don't buy it. Sure, clear unsporting behavior like yelling at or verbally taunting the kicker must be stopped/prevented at penalties, like they need to be throughout the match. But clapping? I don't buy it. It's too ambiguous or doubtful. It shouldn't be the sort of thing that we order re-takes for. This is a game-altering decision made over a dubious infringement. I think it should be avoided.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    15 claps?
     
  9. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Is there an issue here? As a kicker, if the keeper is too busy clapping his hands, my advantage. I have more problem with the kicker waiting to take the kick.
     
  10. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    We're drawing a fine line here. We know that shouting at a player to distract them is USB, so would a loud clap be USB? I say depends on what "loud clap" means. If its done to distract the guy and noise level is way out of place for what is normal, then maybe
     
  11. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A similar, but different situation I encountered 25+ years ago and haven't heard about since. I had a player who let out a blood-curdling scream whenever he did throw-ins. He always took the throw-ins for his team, so this occurred several times. This was even before tennis players screamed when hitting the ball. I decided it was USB, and warned him after the 2nd or 3rd occurence. The next occurence produced a Yellow card. After that, his grunts were much more subdued. He acted like no one had ever complained before.

    THOUGHTS?
     
  12. RichM

    RichM Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 18, 2009
    Meridian, ID
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In a U10 tournament over the summer, my daughter, who has a pretty long throw, audibly passed wind twice while taking throw-ins on our sideline. The first time was funny - the second time we were all trying our best not to roll on the grass laughing. She came over to take a third one and she was visibly embarassed and blushing. We tried to encourage her and tell her not to worry - it happens. And then it happened again. I had to go hide behind a tree for a few minutes to compose myself.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could make an argument that 15 claps is far less distracting than one. A pattern is established and the kicker may get used to it before his approach.

    My point is that we are--quite obviously--talking about a dubious infringement because we can't even agree there is one here. And the sanction (a re-taken PK, if the kick is saved or missed) is quite the draconian punishment when we're talking about clapping. Sure, like with everything we discuss there's an element of "you had to be there" to this scenario--there could be an extreme situation where I'd admit we have to step in. But, on the whole, I'd err very strongly on the side of not punishing something like this.
     
  14. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I am trying to figure out who is more deserving of a red card for this one, daughter or father? No more chili for pre-game meals. :D
     
  15. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    I have no problem with this either. Hang 'em all I say!
     
  16. Elizondo

    Elizondo Member

    Jul 6, 2009
    USA
    Interesting discussion. I shall clarify and expand:

    This was a youth match. There was virtually no background noise; it was pretty much as quiet as a library as the opponent stepped up to kick the ball. The glove slap was LOUD. It really sounded like a rifle shot. It was done to distract his opponent.

    And I left this part out on purpose to see if anyone would question it: He also shouted "HA!" simultaneously. His shout was essentially drowned out by the glove slap. AR2 reported that he did not hear the shout, but was startled by the glove slap, and that was from 50 yards. He asked about the caution because he didn't hear the verbal component.

    This is football, not "hey batter batter" or "I've got it!" baseball. We are expected to play the game in a sporting manner and to attempt to win by superior skill and tactics, not trickery and distraction.

    It is accepted that we may feint in the taking of free kicks and other physical maneuvers (when we have the ball) but we are not to shout or otherwise attempt to distract our opponents in an attempt to have them misplay the ball when they are in possession.

    If you are the sort of referee who allows players to shout at opponents just as they are attempting to play the ball without acting to quash that behavior (and if the distraction was successful, without a caution), then you need to go back to the spirit of the game and have a think.

    ATR 12,28.1 UNSPORTING BEHAVIOR
    Verbally distracts an opponent during the restart of play

    I would argue, and every National assessor I've asked this of has agreed, that the scenario described doesn't require the verbal component in order to rise to the level of misconduct. It's the distraction that counts.

    Now, is this misconduct in a 30k stadium full of noise? No. The opponent wouldn't notice it. But with a young kid who flinches at the sound? You betcha.
     
  17. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    It is a penalty kick. Where in the Laws does it say one has to be silent during a PK? This is not tennis. As long as the GK has his feet on the line and is not doing cartwheels, tell the kicker to take his kick.
     
  18. david58

    david58 New Member

    Aug 29, 2003
    Oregon
    So you can read the keeper's mind as to why she is clapping? C'mon, what if he's doing jumping jacks and sticking out his tongue. Silly, but what's the rub?

    If the gk can distract the kicker, the kicker needs to learn to concentrate, or to watch the silly ball...
     
  19. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Ill remember this next time a player, when challenging for the ball, yells "Bwaaaaa!!!" at the attacking player. "Sorry buddy, but you need to learn to concentrate more and not be distracted so easily"

    This isn't pick-up soccer, it's an organized sport. Players that pull this crap are simply being a-holes. And yes, we can read into their actions to determine why they are doing something, as it is our JOB. We do it all the time on the field.
     
  20. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Where does it say a player has to wear his shorts around his waist? Does this mean we let him wear them on his head?
     
  21. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Falc has to be (or was) a keeper? Yes?
     
  22. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    No, a defender although I have played in goal on occassions and was tested on a PK once. For me, if a keeper is busy trying to play mind games, my advantage as a kicker. If the kicker is too busy worrying about the GK, then that person has no business taking the kick in the first place.
     
  23. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I would agree on a higher plane, but we were talking u17G's here, and although the answers were all over the place, I thought it was very distracting, and I might have had a word with the 'keeper after the match. I don't think it would have benefited anyone to hold the kick any longer. But, it certainly was loud and repetitive.
     
  24. glutenfreebaker

    Oct 3, 2009
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I personally agree with this line of thinking, and if that's how USSF wants it done then maybe it needs to be changed to 'audibly distracts'.
     
  25. NJPAref

    NJPAref New Member

    Aug 9, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's against the spirit of the game, and as such it's unsporting. For me, it's beyond the acceptable "gamesmanship" of the arm waving. I think a warning to the keeper and then the yellow if he/she persists. Wasn't the point of showing up to play soccer?
     

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