Moral Philosophy Question

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by H, Dec 16, 2005.

  1. H

    H Member

    Feb 27, 1999
    If after the first two games, the US has 6 points, Ghana 2 and the other two teams 1 each, would it be ethically acceptable for the US to let Ghana win?
     
  2. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Letting" them win as a strategy? No.

    Resting your starters so they're ready for the knockout rounds? Absolutely.

    This goes for ANY team in the competition, not just the US.
     
  3. The Bergamister

    The Bergamister New Member

    Jan 14, 2004
    Bergamo and Brussels
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    true... unlikely but true.. be prepared for the conspiracy theory to be in the GdS though
     
  4. SccrDon

    SccrDon Member+

    Dec 4, 2001
    Colorado Springs
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Completely agree.

    If we are guaranteed a place after 2 games (as Berg said, very unlikely), I would look for Bruce to rest anybody that needs it (from either knocks or cards) and/or make lineup changes to test something he may want to use later.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a matter of ethics, of course not. Resting key or slightly injured players is one thing, and any team would do that. But not playing to win clearly crosses a line. And, if you can't see that line, there are two other reasons why not to:

    1) After the 1982 Algerian debacle, FIFA would not be hesitant to take severe action if it was patently obvious that the USA (or any other team) intentionally laid down it it's final game.

    2) What is the benefit to the US? If the US were through as group winners, and have already proven they can beat both European teams, wouldn't you want the runners-up to be the best possible team, in order to give Brazil the toughest test in the 2nd round? Laying down to eliminate the Europeans would only (theoretically, since the premise is that Ghana would need us to intentionally lose) clear an easy path for the Brazilians.
     
  6. christopher d

    christopher d New Member

    Jun 11, 2002
    Weehawken, NJ
    Certainly, but it would be fun as all get out to see both Euro sides go home early (again).
     
  7. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I wouldn't assume that Ghana was less likely to beat Brazil than one of the European teams.
     
  8. BEASLEYMYBOY11

    BEASLEYMYBOY11 New Member

    Jul 21, 2005
    INDIANA
    I honestly doubt that would be the situation. Lets go for a tie vs the czechs and try to build off of that with a win vs a weaker italy. That would place us in good position for 1st place which would help us in that we'd be able to avoid brazil in the knockout 1st stage.

    what a double FU to the US by FIFA:2 very solid opponents in the group and should they survive it and take 2nd place, you get good ole brazil in the knockout stage
     
  9. Sion

    Sion New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Out of respect for Ghana, the sport and the event no. Such an approach fails to understand what it means to compete.
     
  10. Wessoman

    Wessoman Member+

    Sep 26, 2005
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Heck no. Unless you like the US playing Brazil in the second round. No thanks. I'd take Croatia/Japan/Australia any day. I'd rather make the round of 8 again. :D

    Even if by some bizarre reason that Brazil is eliminated at that time, the USA can rest some players (Some that may have taken knocks, which will undoubtebly happen when playing the Czechs and Italy) but above all the US should play to WIN. It defeats the purpose of the World Cup and the honor of competition. Portugal did not understand that in 2002.
     
  11. wcharriscpa

    wcharriscpa Member

    Dec 26, 2000
    Austin
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    In the scenario originally put forward, the US would have been guaranteed the E1 position going into the second round -- a loss against Ghana would have no effect whatsoever on their opponent in the second round.

    Or am I not understanding your comment? :confused:

    On the ethics question, as long as the players on the field play to win, all is well (imho).

    One of the benefits of securing the top spot early in the group stage is that the manager is then at liberty to sit certain players for the third match. Whether it is done to allow players to rest and/or recover, or merely to protect them against yellow cards, it is perfectly reasonable for the manager -- once the second round is assured -- to field a "weaker-than-full-strength" squad if he perceives that it will allow him the greatest chance of success in their second round match, even when there is a group stage match yet to go.

    Of course the original question had to do with another matter altogether: "letting" Ghana win -- which I take to mean that the US somehow or another seeks to influence the outcome of the game in the favor of the Ghana squad. This would most certainly be unethical.
     
  12. bear1001

    bear1001 New Member

    Dec 17, 2005
    Birmingham, Alabama
    I guess the idea here is that Italy and the Czech Republic would be eliminated and Ghana would than finish second in the group right? Well, the second team in the group will probably have to play Brazil. So I guess my point is that it doesn't really matter who finishes second in the group because they will probably lose to Brazil, even if it is the United States.
     
  13. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    WHY
     
  14. happii20

    happii20 New Member

    Dec 10, 2005
    It is a good assumption. Nevertheless, I believe Brazil will love to play any other team but Ghana. Both Brazil and Ghana have been playing at the youth level since 1991, and the results have been mixed. While Ghana have been in the final 4 times(won 2), Brazil have been in the final 5 times(won 3).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_U-17_World_Championship

    In the under 20 the exchange has been beautiful. Ghana has been in the final twice(did not win). However, they beat Brazil in the quarter finals 2001. They had lost to Brazil in 1993 in the final.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Youth_Championship

    Ghana seem not to have the fear most teams accord Brazil, and this make their meetings very interesting. Let us hope this translate into the senior world cup. For once we have all the palyers who played through 1991 to 2001 winning team palying against each other. It is going to be interesting.
     
  15. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Italy and the Czech Republic on one point each? :confused:

    How much marijuana have you been smoking?
     
  16. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    They both have a chance of getting a point off Ghana.
     
  17. bltleo

    bltleo Member+

    Jan 5, 2003
    GERMANY
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    as I know both czech and italian soccer and a bit american soccer, I would say that Czech and Italy would be not so hard game for Czechs as the game against USA. First it is their first game and they don´t know USA team so much. But as I know Karel Bruckner he is studying USA games very properly now. Anyway I think it will be hard game for Czechs and USA. I think USA might win or maybe it will be draw. I think Czechs will win against Ghana and Italy will win against Ghana as well. I think USA will end as second in the group. First will be Czechs or maybe Italy. Of course we can see big surprise and Ghana can advance. But from that I have read and games I wached I would say more that USA and Czechs will andvance in the group.


    Bltleo
    GERMANY
     
  18. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Yeah, don't sell them short.
     
  19. chilistrider

    chilistrider Together We Rise

    May 9, 2002
    Thornton, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sort of like how many underestimated Senegal in 02.
     
  20. bltleo

    bltleo Member+

    Jan 5, 2003
    GERMANY
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    the biggest surprise would be if Italy and Czechs would not advance in the group and go home. This would be probably the biggest surprise. I don´t think it happens. Just I´m thinking what will happen and what will write newspapers if it happens. On the paper are favorites ITALY and CZECHS. But real I would say USA and one of Italy or Czechs. I would say Czechs more.
    If they play as they played in the last European Cup. Czech coach Bruckner is mostly afriad of Ghana and USA - both "unknown" for him. About Italy-Czech games czech press don´t write so much, they mostly mention USA and Ghana.

    and the best news is if USA advance, they will not meet us Germany until
    semi-finale ....will we miss famous Germany-USA game?:)...maybe not..
    it depends how advance both Germany and USA.. but it will happens, maybe we should send Frings to this game again:)

    Bltleo
    GERMANY
     
  21. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Those two teams could draw against Ghana but a scenario after two rounds of the USA getting six points, followed by Ghana on two, then Italy and the Czech Republic one point each can only occur in someone's fantasy.
     
  22. bltleo

    bltleo Member+

    Jan 5, 2003
    GERMANY
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Rudi Völler, the former national coach of german team and current sport director or Bayer Leverkusen told after WC draw that in the group E he sees two favorites Italy and Czechs. He has given analysis for every group. Reported asked him about USA. He told that USA improved significantly but his favorites were czechs and Italy. Well I think he is not right. I think USA can make it and advance in the group.



    bltleo
    GERMANY
     
  23. cristoforo7

    cristoforo7 New Member

    May 14, 2003
    A better question would be, if two teams (USA and Ghana, for example) have 4 points and the others have 1 point, then do they play a boring 0-0 draw to guarantee advancement at 5 points apiece.

    For example, after 2 games, it is USA 4 pts, Ghana 4 points, Italy 1 point, Czechs 1 point.

    The problem is that the 2nd place team meets Brazil.
     
  24. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If a draw assures advancement and your opponent isn't interested in attacking, why would you possibly want to take unnecessary risks by attacking them and opening yourself up for the counter and possible elimination?
     
  25. cristoforo7

    cristoforo7 New Member

    May 14, 2003
    To win the group and avoid Brazil.

    Nobody would advocate throwing everyone forward just so Brazil can be avoided.

    But many would say there must be an "in between" strategy that gives you an honest chance at scoring but that also emphasizes the value of a draw and not taking unnecessary risks.
     

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