OK, I'll try this again without the inflammatory remarks that got the last thread shut down, and try to express myself in a more civil manner. After reading through no less than 5 game day threads and struggling to find information about the game being supposedly being discussed and instead finding the same old anti-MLS, anti-US-anything rhetoric, I was pissed. And I have people like SideFootSitter and Zoidberg, two of the worst in this vein of posting, on my ignore list. I imagine it is even more frustrating for those who don't, and there are many of us who feel like the Ignore List should be a last resort to be able to enjoy decent soccer conversation. I am sick of YA threads being over-run with posters who use any YA accomplishment as a chance to take a shot at US Soccer. In my last thread, someone shot back that this isn't the US Team or one of its sub forums. Take a look at the sidebar on your screen. This is a forum under the "USA" section. Its primary audience is US Soccer fans. Many of us here were fans of guys like Clint Dempsey, Brian McBride, Freddy Adu, Michael Bradley, etc before they crossed the pond. Many of us are fans of the teams and the league they played for in MLS. Many of us watched these players in various US Soccer competitions. Many of us watched them even in, gasp, college soccer. We use this forum to check in on how players we've watched at home are doing abroad. You'll forgive us if we get frustrated when so many threads that should be informational and a discussion among US fans instead devolve when people take constant - constant - shots at the system that got those players abroad in the first place. Another poster in the original thread posted something likening my attitude to the, "if you're not with us, you're against us." What an idiotic, asinine argument (mods please note - that's directed at the argument, not the douchebag poster. I kid, I kid.) Here's the thing: I am with you. Anyone who has read my posts in US development threads on other areas of Big Soccer knows that I am and have been - long before people like SFS and Zoidberg got here - proponents of improving the US System, including its coaches, tactics, etc. It should be a wakeup call that somebody who agrees with their overall agenda is calling them out in such a public way. Why am I calling them out? Because I firmly believe that they are making these statements on this forum because they know it will piss people off. They are inflaming the primary audience of these forums, and yes, that includes US forums as well. They could even start a thread on bettering US Coaches and keep the discussion there, and posters like me could opt to simply ignore it. But people like SFS and Zoidberg know that they will be ignored if they do that. Their ideas aren't original nor constructive. They keep doing this because they want the conversation to be about them. Mods, that's trolling. And as a US Soccer fan who tries to visit a site when other US Soccer fans to get information on how US Soccer players are doing, I'm asking you to come down hard on people who troll these forums and make inflammatory remarks designed to piss off their primary audience. SFS and Zoidberg, there are a multitude of European forums for you to go talk about how much better Europe is than anything US Soccer. Please, do us all a favor and fade into obscurity on one of those.
Okay Nutmeg. I appreciate the effort at civility and I'm going to let the this go for a while anyway, because it's clear there's some unrest at the garden party. However, I am but one mod for this forum and I will state here and now that if older (in terms of BS service, at least) and wiser heads feel the thread should be closed, then that's fine with me. I'm going to withhold a final opinion for now. But here are some preliminary opinions and at least one ground rule: 1. If a post even comes close to a personal attack, I'm going to bin it and infract the poster. You talk about the issue, folks, and not about the poster. 2. In my opinion, YA ought to be a place where the difference between the US approach to soccer and that taken in other places can be discussed. It's a natural fit, as US players get exported to other places, we have at least indirect evidence to inform our opinion about this. It would be an extraordinary and unfortunate thing if this persistent argument forced the mods in this forum to arbitrarily exclude or even limit discussion around this issue. 3. The fact that YA is essentially a border state and the issue under discussion presents itself naturally, thereby, does not automatically obviate the need for posters to exercise restraint about bringing it up. A goal scored by Michael Bradley does not automatically require battle to be engaged in the in-game thread. Neither does a comment by a 19 year old player about the training sessions in MLS vs. Denmark, Outer Mongolia, or Market Snodsbury. The fact that posters are choosing to seize any pretext for stating an opinion that's been clearly stated elsewhere has begun to be a problem, in and of itself.
If you look closely, most people on here seem to have an axe to grind or a personal party line to stick to. Sure, SFS and Zoidberg are pro-Euro. Taking a look at your posts one could make the case that you seem to be anti-Euro midfielders. Which means someone a lot like you could easily create this same thread from the opposite side and replace SFS and Z-berg with Nutmeg and IndividualEleven. I think we all know how #1FA feels about the youth. I'm sure if you looked through my posts you could probably find some bias in there somewhere. The truth is anyone who spends anytime on these boards probably develops some generalized theories that will be applicable to and repeated in many different threads. Personally, while predicable and a bit redundant, I have yet to see SFS or Zoidberg hoist their agendas upon any forum in a way that is completely incongruous or inappropriate within the context of the current conversation. If you feel like their comments are out of place with the spirit of the thread title, well then all I have to say is that even I have been here long enough (and you've been here far longer than I have) to understand that after the first X posts you can no longer count on the original thread title to be a completely accurate description of the conversation contained therein. Every thread takes on the twist, turns, and tangents that are natural in all conversations/debates. Let's be honest, by the time any thread gets to 50 posts they've pretty much all devolved into one of the 6-10 stock discussions that haunt the USA forum at any given time (Bradley. Rossi. Adu vs DCU. MLS vs. Euro. Etc.). Finally and unfortunately you're right. The original post does actually sound a lot like you're saying that you're simply labeling opposing points of view with the TROLL tag. While I agree that the "all things Euro are superior to all things US/MLS" line is ridiculous I don't believe that they can be considered trolling. I agree that making statements solely in order to piss people off is trolling. But if, as I believe is the case here, those people actually believe in what they are saying and the statement is relevant to the conversation it can not be called trolling. (Unless of course it includes statements, accusations, or attacks that are clearly socially inappropriate.) Personally, I think as a forum for conversation and discussion we need to be just as diligent in preserving the diversity of opinion and each poster's comfort in conveying that opinion, no matter how divergent it may be, as we are in weeding out Trolls.
A gameday thread shouldn't encompass overall development issues. It should be about the game in question. Michael Bradley's training in MLS a few years back doesn't need to be discussed in next weeks game thread of #1 vs. #2 in the Eredivise. It seems to me that's why the forum split was made in the first place.
If that's the case then each gameday thread should be closed at the end of each game or at least transitioned into a "Post-game discussion" thread within the broader YA forum. By the way, I'm not being argumentative. I actually think that might be a good solution. Let the game day thread be all about pbp and info. Let the 'discussion' thread go where it will.
I like Yanks abroad, and think it's going fine. And I welcome the input of SFS, even if I don't always agree with him. He is more knowledgeable about the game than just about everyone on here, myself included. He may not be right, but there is often something to learn from him. I personally think this board is way over-moderated, and TOS are applied against those with opinions that don't blindly support the yank abroad. SFS is routinely pilloried on these boards, this thread included, but nothing is done about it. It's the folks who don't think freddy adu, for example, is not the greatest teenage soccer player in the world that have to be careful. Bungadiri, if you really want to strictly moderate this forum, and cut down the personal attacks, why aren't you banning nutmeg from the board right now for his very personal attacks on zoidberg and SFS? They want "the conversation to be about them"? Unnecessary personal attack. Why not start right now?
I actually agree with Nutmeg, although I thought his original post was a bit out of line. The gameday forums should be about the games the players are in. Its just really really easy for any gameday forum to digress into broader subjects. That happens in every forum on these boards. Check out the USA v Mexico gameday thread (which has already started) and tell me its just about the game itself. We all love the sport and we see things we want to comment on. Sometimes it gets a little bit out of control. Let's take the Arguez gameday thread for Hertha Berlin this weekend. I'm sure the first thing people thought of when they saw that thread was: Whoa! He's just played for Hertha Berlin when he couldn't get a game for DC! That then got everybody down a completely different path of MLS development, MLS tactics, blah, blah, blah to the point where the thread wasn't really about Arguez at all. I agree with Nutmeg that it can get out of control, but I just don't know what you can do about it. The policing of that would just be impossible. So I've come to accept that one of the drawbacks of these boards is that I'll sometimes have to read the inane ramblings of an 11 year old in his basement with an agenda.
I think that the redundant "game day" thread creates unneeded problems that overzealous moderators just add to. And I agree with deleted Seagroves' post which I haven't even read.
1. In my opinion, this forum is not "over-moderated", it's just volatile. Apparently the intersection of yanks and other leagues combustible. And the idea that there is a party line with respect to the "eurosnob" argument is frankly laughable. 2. As a neutral, one of the things I've noticed is that both sides complain a lot about how one-sided the treatment is. Not much to be done about that. My concern now is that I'm seeing complaints from "innocent bystanders" about how pervasive the fight is. Specifically, the running battle is showing up in too many threads and interfering with people's ability to enjoy the forum.
A) Personally, I don't really care about people "attacking" me. Even if someone's petty about things, everyone on the board sees that. So, I say my two cents worth and usually don't do over 3 replies on the same topic. B) I do think that MLS coaching is pathetic, along with the rest of the CONCACAF, including Mexico, Honduras, Costa Rica, Jamaica, T&T, Canada, etc. This doesn't mean that there aren't good coaches or good players or that the league hasn't gotten better over time. But when I see crappy soccer on the field, I am not going to couch it in excitement. C) All threads drift and have drifted on every forum ever created in the Internet universe. One can stop it by closing old threads and opening new ones but, if you want a discussion, you need to let threads run on. Otherwise, you're doing chopping for the sake of chopping. D) About a decade ago I was vilified by an old Green Bay Packers forum posters for criticizing the administration then in charge. For the diehard loyalists, saying anything negative was considered a traitorous act. Naturally, I was right. That group of the GBP coaches was proved to be incompetent and quickly let go. The team regrouped and returned to its winning ways. And that's the way I look at MLS. E) I don't mind mods deleting or keeping posts when someone is attacked but I do mind inconsistency when some are let go and some are allowed to stay on. Those addressed to a poster such as "You're an idiot", "You're a fool" or "I am beating you" should be modified to remove these bits, if the rest of the post holds up. F) People get upset too easily. Just because someone says "Adu sucks" or "Adu's 30" doesn't mean that you have to pound the keyboard with venom. This isn't a deposition. G) Have a sense of humor occasionally. It ain't gonna hoit.
I think everything is fine. The issue is simply that there are always going to be people on the far left and the far right. I cannot find a reason why either side shouldn't be allowed to bring up their ideas. They are relevant, they cause debate. And when the sparks fly, that can be fun too. It's your choice as to whether you agree, disagree, like some of it, dislike some of it, or think purple is a smell (I know I do).
This does go both ways. I have seen many posters go to the other extreme and slam anything Euro. We all need to realize we have different opinions on strength of leagues. Believe it or not several countries second leagues are stronger than some first leagues. All of these discussions, however, need to be kept out of the game day threads which are informational only. I had someone do the same thing to the Lancos and Robles game threads and it can be very annoying.
It's a valid topic - and one that has come up in the past - should we strictly keep game day threads on track? I personally think it would require way too much overmoderating and be disruptive to natural discussion. Arguez is a relatively new case and it's naturally interesting how things worked out for him. We could also separate that discussion out from the thread, but it would require some heavy handed confusing moderating, In my opinion. We don't have referendum's on posters we don't like and I'm not sure how this thread can continue with that beginning. I haven't seen anything from posters mentioned that warrants our action, but posters are welcome to use report a post if something is over the line.
We mods reserve the right to be unfair, arbitrary, inconsistent, lazy, and with poor hygiene. We don't always see everything, but that's what report a post is for. If you don't want your quality bit removed, don't include a personal attack.
this forum and sub-forum are already on the verge of being over moderated no need to do more just let it go simply remind people to be civil... it's like politics, there's massively different view points to how things should be... doesn't really mean either side is right or wrong, but they are entitled to their opinion... they should just be civil about it
Well, you said that if a post even comes close to a personal attack, you would bin it and infract the poster. Have you infracted nutmeg for his first post here? How about monday morning?
UH Oh No seriously guys you have to relax. Even though sometimes I get mad with SFS's posts or Nutmeg's for being overly critical, you cannot just delete posts because we need to hear both sides of the argument but, withou getting to personal about it.
Wasn't it you who said something about having a sense of humor? --------------------------------- By and large, I am a proponent of the "let civility be the arbiter" position. However, I'd argue that civility extends to more than just the absence of abusive language. It might also include not inflicting the same argument on everybody in the room at the least provocation. I mean, the folks in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf were fascinating once. Imagine if they showed up at every little soire and aired it out.
I know I use this forum far less because I do not like having to wade through the incessant bashing of US players/coaches/league. The views of those oversea are of course very welcome, when they provide info about the teams our guys play for and about the leagues they are in (I can think of Hamerette and various Hannover posters, off the top of my head. Oh, and those great clips from Holland). But when people come in just to take potshots at US players (and there can be no denying there has been a history of posters doing this) and US leagues (again as before), it doesn't add to what is the essence of this particular part of BigSoccer. There are already other places for those topics, whether it be Rivalries or coaching forums or player development forums. So I can feel Nutmeg's frustration on how difficult it can be when all you want is info on our guys and the games they play, yet instead of discussions of whether Dempsey played well, or if Cherundolo left his mark a couple of times, I find nonsense about how crappy the US youth coaches are. And nearly every time threads are viciously derailed we find a handful of posters leading the charge.