MLSnet rates KC as the "losers" of the SuperDraft.

And to answer his question: Conrad.

I think the Wizards, despite being boring, did great at the draft. Wolff and Conrad are starters that fill two holes we have (a scorer and a good D on set pieces) and we didn't have to give up too much to get them.

So what that we didn't get to see anyone hold up a Wizards jersey until after the second round in the "Draft HQ". When that person is Josh Wolff, that's a good trade.

 

Ive thought about it, and i realized that during this drafting period, we did NOTHING taht could possibly hurt this team.

All we did was add people that make it better.

I dont see how that could possibly be defined as "losing"

 

Re: Re: Re: MLSnet rates KC as the "losers" of the SuperDraft.

marc is an excellent columnist on espn. he has been writing about soccer for more than a year now, and has followed it his whole life...if you stray over to the us national team boards you will find he is one of the better liked writers...

 

I read this column today and disagreed as well. by boring he must mean that we didnt trade the 13th pick for the 16th and 24th picks, the 44th pick for the 52nd pick and a conditional pick in the 2004 Superdraft, as well as trade the 59th pick for a player to later be named. Instead we made two trades for two players who will start on opening day of this season, who have won championships and fullfil our needs.

Connolly often has some good things to say, but this time he is grading a draft and placing the team that filled thier two largest needs with proven starters in last place. Try again Marc.

 

We had a horrible draft.

Josh Wolff - he'll be out injured or with the Nats.

Conrad - garden variety back.

This draft was juiced with free talent for the future. More P40s (roster/salary protected) spots than you could shake a stick at.

It sickens me watching teams like LA scoop up Memo Gonzalez.

We're not a team built to win this season, and we picked up nothing to help us out two or three years down the line.

In three seasons Conrad will be gone. Wolff is a tougher call, at least we'll likely get trade/allocation/success value out of him.

The fact is, we blew an opportunity to stock up on potential.

 

Problem is after last season, we know the potential of this team. Had we had a better defense, it's very feasible we could have won the double. We were eliminated in the MLS Cup and USOC by overtime games in which we led going into the final 10 minutes. We don't need potential right now. Potential is for teams with no chance or who already have a solid lineup. We weren't either. While we don't really have any potential for the future, right now we do have a solid starting XI, definately one of the better ones in the league on paper.
- Meola is still one of the best keepers in the league.
- Garcia just had a good game for the nats vs. Canada and is one of the best young defenders in the league (when he's not suspended)
- Talley is a solid defender as we all saw last year. Been called into camp a few times as well as suited up for friendlies along with his national championship ring from college.
- Conrad fills a glaring hole that we had in or backline. A starter on most every MLS team.
- Gutierrez is a player we all know is capable of all-star status along with his caps.
- Zavagnin is also a player who has been one of the more important players for this team since 2000. Been capped at least once, twice?
- Quill is a Project-40 alum who we all know is capable of all-star status from his days in Tampa Bay and we just hope he can recreate those seasons up here.
- Klein is an obvious talent on this team and has the potential to be an occasional starter for the nats if he can just get a breakout year.
- Preki is a man who I don't even need to list accomplishments for, we all know what this guy is about.
- Wolff is in the same baot as Preki.
- Fabbro/Simu are two forwards who we've seen some flashes of greatness out of last season, but just not enough.


Well over half of our team is made up of americans who are starters on every MLS team with the exception of a couple. There's more caps there than I can count and more proven talent than most MLS teams have. While the bench may be a little suspect and there is clearly no youth movement going on, the focus right now is on winning, right now and that's the way it should be for this team.

Do you want to see a season of Fabbro and Simu up top for the knowledge that you have a guy who probably doesn't have the potential to be as good as Wolff. Or what about a rookie starting back there in defense? It worked well the first time with Garcia, but without Vermes around to teach and us needing instant upgrade to a backline that plauged us all of last season, we made the right choice in getting Conrad.

What are you people bitching about? This is a damn good team right now. I'd rather have that than a mediocre team with some potential 3 years from now.

 

All around great post by Derek. Said all the things I've been thinking. He mentioned a starting 11 of great players, but said we have no depth. In the mean time he left out Brown, Armstrong and Arnud (sp?). These three are all quality subs, Armstrong could even be argued as a starter. Jose is also coming along with his developement in the back.

Andy, I hope you were being sarcastic.

 

I'm not saying that I agree with Connelly's characterization, but his bottom line view is understandable 3 ways:

First, Wolff was locked down previous to the draft. So, it could be technically accurate to view Wolff's addition as separate from "the draft class" and therefore a bottom-line comparison of names gained only during the day. Me? I would consider JW as part of the draft.

Looking coldly, (again not necessisarily my view) you can consider Wolff on his own merits. Ideally, a number 3 pick overall will be a can't miss guy with unmatched historical production. Someone devoid of previous injury with ++ attributes (on a --, -, 0, +, ++ scale). Wolff clearly has ++ attributes, but also has injury. Serna, Klein, and Wolff all started MLS careers in '98. Serna has almost doubled Wolff's production (injuries and Nat duty, yes, but still). Klein only has 13 less points having played not only in midfield, but with MLS' runaway worst offense since '98. Reread that last sentence. Is Wolff worth a #3? The promise of him certainly is, assuming health, but opinions vary.

Second, SJ used the pick on Alvarez. who will turn out to be the bigger windfall long-term? Just the fact there is a question implies possibility of a mistake. This is true even given KC's more pressing need of a defender with size (a fact Marc Connelly may have simply overlooked - it wouldn't be the first time KC has been overlooked, nor will it be the last). Moreover, MC may be considering the past as an indicator of future results. Has KC had the best drafts since CJ came about? For a national collumnist to single out something KC does as stellar, it usually had to be off-the-crarts good. Similarly, coastal events are magnified.

Third, if you are going to bother being a GM, one of the main responsibitities is to consistently build a team capable of being competitive. I believe this requires an ability to do this over the long-term to be considered an effective GM. Without getting too deep into limited roster issues, it's easy to see where KC has developed a pattern of patching a hole in the off-season after it's exposed during the season. All teams do this to an extent, but teams that show consistent excellence are able to plan for holes previous to them getting exposed. They do this in part by drafting youth and promise rather than having to address gaping roster holes. A quick listing of the roster names drafted by other teams yields many youth nats, p-40's, All-Americans, etc. Certainly the majority of those guys will not start and you can see where dc has crept into a hole using this philosophy exclusively. That said, odds are the rosters of other teams will have quality young (and cap friendly) stars in them while KC will have to patch work veteran and salary cap guys into a team every year. What trade will have to be made to cover Preki's declining skills? Where is his replacement? Just a thought. To illustrate it further: The Royals had kids come through the minors to come together as the neucleus of the title teams of the late 70's and mid-80's. I'm saying that's a formula repeated commonly in sports and it's very probable MLS teams will experience this too.

At some point it's a philosophical difference. Do you take the gems in hand or the mine? KC has clearly forsaken the mine for the known gems. Which one is right? Could be both. It would be easier to take the kids if KC had a youth team roster to utilize as the Metros, for example, do. The difference might be that KC is two injuries away from getting the dc-cornered "You suck!" pick. Hopefully not.

 

I don't know if I can agree with the first statement because of the players listed. I agree they are good, but maybe not as great as you think. At the very least there are questions to ask of all of them. I want to see the right answers come forward, but...

Talley - had a tendency to get lost both on his runs forward where no/not enough cover was provided and on defensive set pieces. I do like him better with Conrad in tow.
Guti - an All-Star again? I hope so.
Zags - Must improve back to 2000 form. Meanwhile the league has moved on to 2002.
Quill - I would love to see playoff form over 7 months
Preki - It's a much nicer walk down from the apex of an entire mountain range, but his numbers are in consistent decline. I know I'm not the only one who saw him not be able to hit the goal after :60 last year.
Wolff - I'm all for anointing a king, but he still hasn't out produced Preki during a season. Preki's 40.
Fabbro/Simu - flashes?

 

I'm not.

How many games do you expect Josh Wolff to play in a Wizards uniform this season?

The fact is, I like charter's post. We refuse to bit the bullet (because Curt and Bob's jobs would be at stake) and start building for the future. When Preki goes away, or gets hurt, the jig will be up.

Who's to say that Jose isn't ready to step into an MLS backline?

The fact is, the team with Curt and Bob has consistently traded tomorrow for today. 2000 was great, but it's been a big decline since then (1st of 12 to 8th of 12 to 10th of 12). Remember Josh Wolff sat on the bench in Chicago as a rookie. Our own Chris Klein - drafted in the Ron Newman era - was a part time player as a rookie.

Gansler seems to be hung up on skipping the draft unless there's a read to play Nick Garcia available. MLS bumped teams to 6 developmental slots this year. They also signed a record crop of P40 U17/U18/U20 talent. We took a pass.

Would you rather have a college basketball program that recruits its own and brings in the odd Juco transfer to complete the puzzle - or would you prefer the program that lives off of transfers and Juco players, hoping to cobble together something in a limited time window?

Conrad is a "safe" choice. I think we could've done better.

 

Also, remember one thing. Everyone actually "helped" themselves this draft, so to say any team was a"loser" is false. Consider yourself as having the 10th BEST draft day, and you'll be better off.

 

As far as Wolff, again a solid pickup for a draft pick. A known starter versus a potential starter. Look hindsight will be 20/20 on this one but Josh just signed with the league for what another 7 years. We'll get just as much mileage out of him as any new young gun that gets any good and either heads overseas or gets U20 or Nat call ups + injuries. They'll miss the same depending on their skills. Injuries you can't predict, past does not dictate the future in this scenario. Besides they usually say knees are stronger after reconstruction than they were originally.

Given what was left at the time we picked, Conrad is a good choice. We needed size, experience and a starter on the backline period. The only player (based on reports I read from the combine) that had ALL these credentials and was judged to be a possible starter right away in the Draft was David Stokes. He was long gone by the time our pick came around. Not saying there wasn't anymore defenders worth picking up but none had both the size AND the nod to be a right away starter. We had to fill that need period.

We got burned excessively on set pieces and needed some fire in the back. With Vermes hurt and McKeon not in the mix no one became the enforcer/lets take it to them guy. If you remember the 2000 squad, the team was fired up and there was almost if not always a scuffle that broke out each game. The team had heart and butt kickers in the lineup. We need that again; someone who's gonna gets some cards and makes you cringe sometimes when they tackle or mark someone. Last year you can maybe say that about Armstrong and Garcia. Garcia's were professional fouls and Armstrongs were just due to his Olsen like but unorthodox aggressiveness.

At least we got skill right away. I couldn't sit through another season with the concept of a lethargic offense again. We have immediate potential now. There will be another hyped crop of draftees next year that we'll go after. I do agree that we will need to aggressively pursue youth next year. It's just we weren't that far off the mark from being a great team this year just look at all the ties. One more goal defended or put away in those 9 ties and we could've led the league and played with confidence. We didn't even have our strikers until mid season.

 

Conrad is 25, he still has good years left on him.

Remember, just because a guy was drafted high doesn't mean he is going to pan out. (Tahj Jankins #1 pick)

When Preki retires we get an allocation to replace him. (Sunderland is on the verge of relegation... again, and without premeirship money they may be looking to dump a certain US national team captain)

 

Ok... so we keep the #1, we draft a midfielder, he's ready to replace Preki after this season?

I'll call up Curt today and demand an apology from him for putting a solid team on the field.

The JUCO tranfer comparison isn't accurate because we aren't picking up talented A-league players, we're getting transfers from players who started for Duke, Kansas, Arizona, etc... Not Middle-of-nowhere Community College.

It's all opinion. If we were going to have a "youth movement" and rebuild, we should have done it two seasons ago and Bob and Curt shouldn't even be a part of this one. They had their chance to rebuild and we've done it. This is the season where it's gotta happen for us and you don't do it by starting rookies. You can, the Wizards did it in 2000 with Garcia, but we could have easily drafted Steve Shak and we would have never won the cup. It's too big of a gamble when you have the peices in place right now. We weren't expecting 2000, it just fell into our lap.

It's not like this is the Kansas City Raiders and we're one old ass team, we have young guys, no 15 year olds, but enough talent to get us through the next 5 years. Here's the age's of our starting XI


40 (Preki)
33 (Meola)
30 (Gutierrez)
29 (Zavagnin)
------------
26 (Fabbro)
26 (Klein)
26 (Talley)
25 (Conrad)
25 (Wolff)
24 (Quill)
23 (Garcia)

Ok... so in the next 5 years we'll have to find replace ments for those top 4. We're gonna get an allocation for Preki so we don't need to worry about grooming a replacement. Meola will probably play for another 3/4 years so that gives us plenty of time to think about what we're gonna do in terms of replacing him. And Gut and Z-man are good players, but nothing that I'm freaking out about worried about how we'll replace them.

This team is peaking starting now for the next two years. We'll do some damage and hopefully get another Cup. We almost got two cups last year with a starting XI clearly worse, slower, older than this one.

Don't throw in the towell and say... "Scrap it and let's go with a youth movement." This was a good team last year except we just let too many games slip away because of a bad defense. We needed a couple peices and we found them. Be happy. Be excited. Be thrilled that we have a team that's pretty damn talented. Don't bitch about trading away our first round pick for Wolff. I'll gaurantee you no more than one of those players drafted will have the impact Wolff does. He's gonna (should be at least) starting in '06 for the nats, and we just gave up a first rounder for him? That's a bargain. The next few picks went towards Talley and Conrad, something to solidify our backline. You think Meola wants those two or a 2nd year starter and a rookie both picked in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. That defense would be s**ty!

So we don't have the 15 year olds? So what? We have time for them. We need to win NOW and that's what Bob and Curt are doing. Don't bitch about picking up a player who the other 9 teams would love to have, not to mention plenty of European teams. I'll start a thread in the MLS forum "Andy Mead is upset we traded for Josh Wolff" and it will be full of posts saying "Well Andy's a moron!" Do we really need more posts like that on BigSoccer? Isn't enough enough?

Like I said, it's all opinion, build for later through draft or build for now through trades? It just depends on how close you think we are to winning. Personally I think we're at 49-33 going into the all-star break and we're just trading for those one or two peices to solidify our lineup and we got an ace pitcher and decent reliever.

It's just the right thing to do right now.

 

Andy and who ever else have no feet to stand on after Dereks post. If I werent at work I'd have taken the time to say the same. Well said Derek! A mid 20s roster that is quality is a lot better than a low 20s roster with question marks all over the field. Sometimes CJ has given us reason to complain, for once he goes out and gets exactly what we need and people still rip him.

Andy, I understand what you are saying, but it makes no sense. Our team is old compared to DC, but a lot better than DC. Who knows what five years will bring, in an era of free agency and salary caps there is no time to build dynasties. You put the best team together each and every year.

 

agreed. a youth movement, and the ensuing losses/decrease in attendance, is not consistent with Lamar's tix plan, steady growth, etc. lamar has a plan, and he's sticking to it. attendance will increase again this year because of the increased # of saturday night games. with a .500 team and increased attendance, lamar will tout the year as another success and he'll be "looking to build on that next year" - ie, we're doing just fine with our plan. there is no way lamar's going to change course right now. his investment in the chiefs did nothing for him until the "steady growth" model was implemented. the wiz are now mid-cycle in that model, with a championship and growing attendance.

let's also remember that lamar is VERY loyal, and whether fans agree or not, bob has proven to lamar that he is the guy. cj and bob will ride this baby out for quite awhile.

 

Yeah, no crap Lamar is loyal. Just as long as CJ doesn't turn Jack Steadman on us I'm happy. Sometimes Lamar has proven he's too loyal.

 

I just don't get how people can say we had a bad draft. "BAD DRAFT DAY", yes... but not a bad draft at all.

Round 1: Josh Wolff
Round 2: Jimmy Conrad
Round 3: Carey Talley

Wolff would start for every team in the league. Talley and Conrad would start for at least 8 out of 10.

So we got 3 starters for our first 3 picks in the draft. That's good by any standard.

And when you look at our roster, our first XI is extremely solid. And we've got at least one guy at every position (D/M/F) that could be starting in this league.

Defense: Burciaga was penciled in as a starter last year before the injury, and Brunt even started a few games out of necessity.

Mid: Armstrong is quality both as a starter and super-sub. And Brown is a capable starter when needed on the wing.

Forward: Whichever SI doesn't start (Fabbro/Simutenkov) is a good forward sub off the bench... along with Brown and Armstrong.

 

At the end of the season let us compare minutes played by Nate Jaqua and Josh Wolff. Wolff will start the season injured, and if he manages to get healthy he'll be playing in France and the Gold Cup - not, mind you, in Kansas City.

 

good point, but he should be available for the playoffs. granted, with little chemistry.

 

I've spoken with Curt about it many times, and the answer is always the same:

We draft starters before all else.

Whether or not you agree with it, it's a consistent philosophy, and they got three starters with the first three picks in this year's draft. The odds that three young players would be as good for the next three years as Josh Wolff, Jimmy Conrad and Carey Talley? Not very good.

The teams taking Magee, Memo, Gaven...yeah, it's sexy, but there's a very real chance that those guys will leave the league right when they're ready to be dominant players.

Do I wish the front office weren't a bunch of killjoys? Sure. Does that mean I disagree with how the draft went? No.