MLS success on a limited budget, could FC Dallas U25s beat the Quakes, and hiring a new coach

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by xbhaskarx, Oct 4, 2014.

  1. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1 xbhaskarx, Oct 4, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
    MLS Success on a Limited Budget

    There seems to be a belief among many Earthquakes fans that the team doesn't spend enough money on players, possibly because they don't have their own stadium. But how much can we expect the team payroll to change after the team moves into the new stadium next season?

    Here are the latest MLS salary figures:

    [​IMG]

    There seem to be two tiers in terms of spending: teams that splash millions on DP signings and those that don't. There doesn't seem to be a clear connection between signing million dollar DPs and on-field success, only LA and Seattle are consistently successful from the former group, whereas teams like Kansas City and Real Salt Lake manage to be consistently successful despite not spending that same kind of money. Looking at the other teams in the Earthquakes neighborhood (red box), there's no reason to expect them to spend significantly more once they have their own stadium: Every other team in that group already has their own stadium aside from DC United.

    If the Earthquakes are not going to throw around Seattle money, they need to look at how teams in their own spending range manage to be successful, and emulate some of their practices. The two teams that stand out from that group are RSL and SKC, they are consistently successful and widely considered to be well run franchises on every level. Obviously San Jose and every other team should strive to copy their success. But beyond those obvious examples, I decided to look at one that's more of a mixed bag: FC Dallas. Their owners, the Hunt family, have been criticized for years. Kansas City and even Columbus fans are glad to have had their teams sold to new ownership groups. Their stadium is out in the suburbs and the stands are hardly ever full. Grant Wahl ranked the Hunts 16th (Columbus) and 17th (Dallas) out of 19 teams in his 2013 MLS Ambition Rankings (San Jose was 12th). This season, with the Hunts down to just one team, Dallas rose to 15th out of 19 (San Jose was 10th).

    Obviously winning now is the top priority in professional sports, but beyond that, certain teams set themselves up to have a good change of success in the future. While Dallas are having success this season and are currently fifth in points per game, what's more impressive is that despite their constraints (less than ideal stadium situation, payroll comparable to the Earthquakes) their front office has set the team up for long term success, based on youth.

    1) Development Academy: 7 homegrown players have already appeared in games for the first team and there are currently 8 homegrowns on the roster.
    2) Coaching: poaching Oscar Pareja from Colorado, who had previously run Dallas' youth academy while also managing their reserve side.
    3) Signing and developing young star players: the club has filled its three DP slots, but all are young DPs (Mauro Díaz, Andrés Escobar, David Texeira). Fabian Castillo was a young DP last year, due to his transfer fee.
    4) Drafting well: 7 of their draft picks are on the roster, including a current Rookie of the Year candidate.
    5) Development pipeline: plans to field their own USL Pro team in the next few years.

    Dallas has talented and competent coaching and front office personnel in place, and therefore has the confidence to both evaluate talent and develop talent. Instead of relying on established MLS veterans who are known quantities, they bring players into the team from outside MLS, whether it's through the draft, signing academy players to homegrown deals, or signing (often young and relatively unproven) players from other leagues.

    FC Dallas is the third-highest scoring team in the league with 52 goals and 27 have been scored by players age 24 or younger (the Earthquakes have scored 34 goals this season).

    Could FC Dallas field a U-25 team capable of beating the Earthquakes?

    U-25 starting 11:
    [​IMG]
    (Castillo and Escobar should be switched)
    Homegrowns: 4
    Signings: 4
    Drafted: 3

    U-25 bench:
    [​IMG]
    Homegrowns: 5
    Drafted: 2
    Signings: 1
    Lottery: 1

    That's 20 players aged 24 and below, 2/3 of an MLS roster.

    Their roster is filled out with 6 players aged 25-29, and 6 players over 30:

    Age 25-29
    GK: Raul Fernandez - 28
    GK: Chris Seitz - 27
    D: George John - 27 (Drafted by FCD)
    D: Zach Loyd - 27 (Drafted by FCD)
    M: Hendry Thomas - 29
    M: Adam Moffat - 28

    Players over 30: Blas Perez, Michel, Jair Benitez, Peter Luccin, Stephen Keel, Je-Vaughn Watson

    Aside from at the goalkeeper position, they could probably replace all the production they're getting from their dozen age 25+ players in a year or two.


    For comparison, the Earthquakes currently have 12 players between 25-29: Barklage, Cronin, Djalo, Francis, Fucito, Harris, Lenhart, Meredith, Perez Garcia, Pierazzi, Pintos, Salinas

    And 9 players over 30: Bernardez, Busch, Goodson, Gorlitz, Harden, Hernandez, Stephenson, Stewart, Wondolowski

    And here are the 8 U-25 players on the Earthquakes roster:

    [​IMG]
    Drafted: 4
    Lottery: 2
    Homegrowns: 1

    How many of them will be able to replace the production lost from aging players over the next few years?

    MLS minutes in 2014:
    SJE U-25s: 2,869 minutes / 5 players = 574 average
    FCD U-25s: 13,575 minutes / 13 players = 1,044 average

    SJE: Cato 1444, Koval 774, Thompson 522, Schuler 123, Jahn 6

    FCD: Hedges 2430, Castillo 2023, Ulloa 2014, Akindele 1561, Escobar 1231, Hernandez 937, Diaz 891, Acosta 725, Zimmerman 680, Texeira 566, Garcia 282, Hollingshead 232, Walker 3

    That's 10 of the 11 players (all but the goalkeeper) from the Dallas U-25 lineup, all with more MLS minutes this season than Tommy Thompson...

    Hiring a new Earthquakes coach


    San Jose should follow a similar path. They can start by hiring a coach who is can properly evaluate young prospects and develop them into quality MLS players. That is something the current Earthquakes coaching staff has not done particularly well. And the man rumored to be taking over as the next Earthquakes coach, Dom Kinnear, has not done much better:

    Hugo Perez was inexplicably relieved from the U-15 team, and has stated that "it’s no secret that I have aspirations to someday coach at the pro level."
    Given his track record with the U-14-15s that two and a half years later comprised most of the U-17 team that just beat Costa Rica 5-2 (plus Joe Gallardo who is out with a broken leg), the Earthquakes would be wise to consider him for the job.

     
  2. QuietType

    QuietType Member+

    Jun 6, 2009
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    An incredible case against Doyle and Watson. The mismanagement of this team has put us years behind even mediocre clubs like Dallas.

    It's not the money, it's the mismanagement that is what's wrong here.
     
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  3. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Earthquakes are closer in payroll to KC, Philly, Houston, and Dallas, than RSL is to the Earthquakes, and they're a perennial trophy contender. There's enough parity in this league that not spending enough isn't the problem for ANY team in MLS. It's how you spend that money that counts, and our front office is mostly spending it on aging and injury prone veteran players.

    And really another problem is that because we're signing known quantities and not developing our own young players, we don't have many cheap players who are producing far above what they're getting paid. Almost every successful MLS team has a couple these guys, making only five figures yet playing a big role.

    There are not many "steals" here:

    $650k Wondolowski
    $300k Djalo
    $342k Goodson
    $258k Lenhart
    $240k Pierazzi
    $216 Perez Garcia (pro rated?)
    $213k Hernandez
    $207k Gordon (not sure how much of that we paid)
    $190k Harris
    $188k Cronin
    $185k Busch
    $145k Thompson
    $142k Bernardez
    $140k Stewart
    $133k Salinas
    $130k Bingham
    $123k Pintos
    $100k Gorlitz

    Back to FC Dallas, here are some cheap players that are producing:
    $79k Kellyn Acosta
    $49k Tesho Akindele
    $76k Fabian Castillo
    $50k Moises Hernandez
    $37k Victor Ulloa
     
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  4. leocal

    leocal Member

    Aug 23, 2004
    Fog City
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please send this to Kaval and Co.
     
  5. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since I've already covered Watson and Kinnear's distaste for developing and playing young kids, I'll add this recent tweet from the Chicago Fire to the mix:



    They're bragging about it as if that's a good thing. Meanwhile Chicago has only won 5 games all season so that veteran leadership is really paying off for Yallop... get excited for more Logan Pause!

    The coaching tree of Yallop-Kinnear-Watson is responsible for three of the six worst records in MLS this season, with a combined 97 points out of 90 games, for an average of 1.08 points per game. Their combined goal differential is -33 (Kinnear's Dynamo are actually the worst of the sorry trio with a -16 all by themselves).

    If the Earthquakes hire Kinnear to replace Watson, every Quakes coach since 2001 will have come from the Yallop-Kinnear-Watson coaching tree:
    • Frank Yallop (Feb 2001 – Dec 2003)
    • Dominic Kinnear (Jan 2004 – Dec 2005)
    • Frank Yallop (Nov 2007 – June 2013)
    • Mark Watson (June 2013 – Nov 2014)
    • Dominic Kinnear (2015 – ?)
    That shows an unhealthy insularity, to put it diplomatically.
     
  6. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #6 JazzyJ, Oct 5, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
    Fantastic post, x! And is along the same lines as what I've been saying. In the end what you need most to succeed in MLS is a good / smart technical staff.

    I concur that this needs to find it's way into Kaval's mailbox.
     
  7. QuakesForever

    QuakesForever Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't Kinnear develop Geoff Cameron and Stu Holden?
     
  8. QuietType

    QuietType Member+

    Jun 6, 2009
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Develop" is being kind. Regardless, we don't need individual players "developed" to sell off. We need a team developed that can compete for championships.
     
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  9. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #9 xbhaskarx, Oct 5, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
    I'm talking about recent history here. Holden joined Kinnear's Dynamo team in 2006 (Cameron in 2008). That's like a century ago in MLS time given how fast things change. Frank Yallop won the Supporters Shield with 66 points and a +29 goal differential in 2012, so half a dozen years after that. We should just hire him, he must be a great coach! And of course Holden was doing fine already given that he was good enough to get to Sunderland before he played for Kinnear... before having his career derailed by an unfortunate bar fight in Newcastle that left him with a fractured left eye socket. Cameron spent four full years in college before being drafted by the Dynamo, so not exactly the same as a teenage homegrown kid that Kinnear refuses to play.
     
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  10. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great posts her @xbhaskarx! You really should distil some of these down to one letter and send it to Kaval.

    Also, given that you seem to like Oscar Pareja, do you think we should look at signing Wilmer Cabrera at the end of the season? The GoatShaggers are "going on hiatus," so he'll be available. He was Pareja's assistant, he's a former US U-18 and U-17 coach. His resume is impressive, and he did have the pathetic GoatLovers moving in the right direction earlier this season. I think we can attribute some of their demise to the state of their team.

    I'd interview him at least.

    Go Quakes!!
    Fire JD and Wat(TF)!!

    - Mark
     
  11. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I think Wilmer Cabrera would be another candidate worth considering. And I certainly wouldn't hold his time at Chivas USA against him, that is an impossible situation and everyone knows it. And even still, Cabrera has 7 wins in 31 games with Chivas this season, despite all the uncertainty, 3-6k fans in the stadium, being league owned, facing contraction, etc. Watson has 6 wins this season. Frank Yallop has just 8 wins in his last 46 games between the Earthquakes and Chicago over the last two seasons, and is talking like he expects to still be employed in 2015.
     
  12. evade6317

    evade6317 Member+

    Jun 27, 2007
    Savannah, GA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How did I miss this brilliant piece of literature?

    Well written @xbhaskarx !!!
     
  13. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #13 xbhaskarx, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
    Soccerwire has a four part series on "The MLS Rookie Experience" and this story is from part 3, The dark side of the MLS rookie experience:

    That is almost certainly a reference to this Garza - Wondo incident from 2013:
    http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23089004/san-jose-earthquakes-coach-says-sam-garza-lacks
    http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22813288/san-jose-earthquakes-chris-wondolowski-apologizes-outburst


    And there's more on the second page:
    That would be Garza's 2014 loan to the San Antonio Scorpions:
    http://www.sjearthquakes.com/news/2014/02/quakes-loan-bingham-garza-san-antonio-scorpions

    With Arizona United:
    I was never impressed by Garza (still can't believe that's who we picked out of such a deep draft class, another example of this team not doing their homework), but this story is still a good look inside the team from a young player's perspective.


    Of course a good 1/3 of the article on "the dark side" of the MLS rookie experience is about the San Jose Earthquakes. Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be...
     
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  14. fadedtoblack

    fadedtoblack Member+

    Nov 6, 2007
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a good find, and interesting to hear Sam's side of the stoy, but this stuff happens at every club.

    Having said that, Wondo shouldn't have yelled at the kid, but every one knows he's a psycho that yells at people (mostly refs) on the field.
     
  15. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, because everyone was talking about what cant miss prospects they were when the Dynamo acquired them, right? Its easy in hindsight to say that these guys were just loaded with talent and destined to make it, but they werent even close to being viewed that way when Kinnear brought them in.

    If you look at the Dynamo's draft history, you see that its mostly drafting at the back ass end when they have picks. And there isn't a lot of talent on the board at that time. Still, its actually not that bad. Guys like Sarkodie, Bruin, Sherrod, Ashe, Cruz, Creavalle, Jason Johnson, Ownby and Cochran were all drafted and appeared for the Dynamo or another team last year. Thats not a stellar list, but if you look at who was drafted after them, its not like there was a bunch of successful players after them, more likely it was just nobody. Houston hasnt been in a position to acquire young talent in a long time.

    But think of 2005, Davis and Ricardo Clark were 23 and while talented they were not stars and were considered expendable by their teams. Kinnear got both of those players to a world cup. In a way, same with Holden and same with Cameron. How many MLS coaches got 4 players who came to their team at the ages of 22 or 23 into the last 2 world cups? Im not even counting Wondo, since he didnt break out until he left Houston, or Donovan, because while from everything I heard Kinnear ran the practices in those years he wasnt the head coach.

    I think Kinnear gets a bad rap on the talent development because he has won again and again, and hasnt had access to much young talent.
     
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  16. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #16 xbhaskarx, Nov 7, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2014
    Sports Illustrated article on FC Dallas:

    Oscar Pareja's trust in youth paying off in FC Dallas' MLS resurgence

    FC Dallas is growing. Its season may end next Monday, but a foundation unlike any other in MLS has been established in Frisco, Texas. The 17-12-7 record and the club’s first conference semifinal berth in four years are just the start. The FCD youth system, which Pareja ran before becoming the Colorado Rapids head coach in 2012, has produced an MLS-high 13 professionals. Eight are on the current roster. FCD’s homegrown players logged 4,607 regular-season minutes this year, the most in the league by more than 16 percent.

    Among the 10 MLS Cup playoff qualifiers, Dallas’ postseason participants are the youngest by more than eight months. On average, the players who drew Seattle were nearly four years younger than their opponents. Captain Matt Hedges, a candidate for the league’s Defender of the Year award, is 24. And the conveyor belt continues to churn. Midfielder Alejandro Zendejas, a U.S. U-17 international, signed a pro contract last month and Top Drawer Soccer, which covers U.S. player development, has ranked FCD’s U-18 team the second best in the nation. Its U-16 team is rated eighth.


    Some numbers:

    FCD’s three academy teams (U-18, U-16 and U-14) are free and sit atop a development pyramid that includes pre-academy teams for players U-12 through U-15 and, below that, more than 4,000 boys and girls playing at various competitive levels. The Toyota Soccer Center is anchored by the MLS stadium and includes 17 additional full-size fields. FCD employs some 100 coaches and technical staffers. It is as close to the sort of traditional, comprehensive club so common in Europe and Latin America as there is in the U.S.​

    I'm not sure I even want to know how our numbers compare to those....
     
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  17. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Contrast Sam Garza on young players with the Earthquakes, to what Victor Ulloa has to say about young players at FC Dallas:

    Garza:
    "I felt that maybe I wasn’t really getting the chance I deserved. We had a bunch of older guys and that’s just kind of how it goes.”

    Ulloa:
    “That a 24-year-old [Hedges] is captain of the team, it’s a motivation for us that young guys can speak up and be leaders,” Ulloa said. “When we have meetings or we’re watching video or anything, young guys speak up. We have a 17-year-old [homegrown attacker Coy Craft], and he’ll say some words and everybody takes him seriously. There’s no veterans that say, ‘Hey, don’t talk.’ We’re a family. Everybody can speak up and help the team.”
     
  18. SJTillIDie

    SJTillIDie Member+

    Aug 23, 2009
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    develop youngsters? why would we want to give minutes to tommy thompson when we can keep throwing atiba harris out there over and over again :cry:
     
  19. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And thus is answered the question why I treat Wahl's Ambition Rankings with a chuckle.

    It's hard to sniff the jock of a development system run by a team that's been growing roots within the community and organically growing its attendance for five straight years into an all-time high, much harder than sniffing the jock of a multimillion dollar DP.
     
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  20. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #20 xbhaskarx, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
    Teams like FC Dallas (7 homegrown players) and the Vancouver Whitecaps (lowest average age in MLS at 24.3 years, and 8 homegrown players) should be the Quakes model if they're not going to spend money on high salary DPs. Those teams bring in younger players from South America like Castillo and Diaz, or Laba and Rivero, and fill out their rosters with quality draft picks and homegrown signings. Neither team has big stars yet they are currently first and second in points per game.

    With players away on international duty (including one of their homegrown players who is a regular starter), FC Dallas set the MLS record today by starting five homegrown players:


    Oscar Pareja hails young FC Dallas squad after "perfect game" vs. Crew SC: "The boys are growing"
    A 3-0 win on the road against one of the top eastern conference teams, that's how you handle playing through the international window...

    There is already an alternative pathway to success from that of the Galaxy and Sounders for the Quakes to emulate should they wish to do so.
     
  21. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that they realize this is the path, but are about 5-8 years late getting started. If anything, this is Doyle's biggest fail as his background is with running a youth club.

    However, the Quakes having a plan and executing on a plan. Not so much. Frankly, they should be looking at Santa Clara Sporting and De Anza Force for players. Both clubs have been more successful at developing players.
     
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  22. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Considering that Doyle has basically no real experience in developing young players, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Pay to play leagues around the Bay Area are more for profit than they are actually interested in developing professional players. In terms of integrating a youth system designed to create players for your full professional team, well, so far we haven't seen much reaping there.

    That said, I was encouraged by what I saw in the Quakes youth game I watched a while back. No idea if any of those players will make it all the way through to the first team, but they seemed to be playing in a style that would benefit them for professional careers, so that was nice to see. With the number of players in the area, even with the late start, it's possible that if the effort is put in, the turnaround on that investment will be shorter than it might be in other areas.
     
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  23. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, but this almost requires firing Doyle because he's a dick and he's pissed off the folks at De Anza Force. I don't know if Santa Clara Sporting hate him or not, but my guess is that they aren't buddies.

    We ought to have gotten on this bandwagon before. Notice that the Quakes website ... well, I see that we have links to the academy teams now, so that's a step in the right direction. But there's nothing about the Burlingame Dragons. Even a search of the site turns up almost nothing.

    Even minor league sides do a better job of promoting their youth and women's sides and describing a path from youth squad to first team. This is basic stuff.

    We could make better use of the Republik too, and that's looking up a little bit since Pricky left. But I'm wondering why we haven't loaned Matheus Silva to Republik? Are we actually thinking that he might get sub minutes with the Quakes?

    The team is getting better about a number of things, but it's always baby steps. We're always behind the curve. We've got lots of examples of how to build a team, but we aren't following them, at least, not aggressively.

    Go Quakes!!

    - Mark
     
  24. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I'm not questioning the conclusion that the Quakes could have done a better job at grooming homegrown talent, but in 20 years Dallas has never won an MLS Cup or (to my recollection) a Supporters Shield.

    And as to whether a group of FC Dallas' under-25-year-olds could defeat the Quakes, undoubtedly they could. So what? The Philadelphia Union can defeat the Quakes, too. Yet, the Quakes can defeat the L.A. Galaxy, even with Sebastian Lletget on the field. Both happened days apart in the very recent past. What does it prove?
     
  25. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The point is that if you are trying to run an MLS team on a budget (as the Quakes are), then using your academy to develop players will save you a bunch of money, and you may well develop some players that you will want to sell to other teams, perhaps in other leagues. Assuming that you can't afford Chicharito or Dos Santos or Lampard or some such player, then developing as many of your own players as possible is a good idea.

    As is loaning your draftees, and maybe a few invitees, to your lower division affiliate team for development is another pipeline of players that you should not overlook. Assuming that you're on a budget.

    How's that relationship with Totenham going? Oh, we can't afford their players? Maybe we should have tried building a relationship with Saprissa instead? (Or some other team where we could afford some of their players?)

    We fail on a number of levels. Academy is just one of them.

    Go Quakes!!

    - Mark
     
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