close... not really... Public funding of sports stadiums gets a return on investment through jobs, and I would imagine that the city gets a slice of the financial pie, too. Public funding of junkies and homeless gets you more junkies and homeless people. Not a good return on investment. Portland isn't exactly dripping with money. Under the current landscape the choice will be between one or the other. Somebody tell me again why some of these posters are on bigsoccer. Isn't there a bighomeless.com or bigjunkie.com that you can post on?
Two things: Firstly, while I'm not sure I don't agree that cities should not use public funds for stadiums, I can also argue the same for "taking care of the less fortunate". I can do that individually and you can do that individually. Is is the role of the government? It doesn't seem to have solved the problem. Why is a government solution with bureaucracy and red tape better than a private charity? Secondly, I take exception to the term "less fortunate". What does fortune have to do with anything? We are the sum total of our decisions in our lives. Even people who start out a little behind in life or go through tough circumstances can make the right decisions and be a useful member of society. That having been said, the more private funds that go into a new stadium or PGE Park improvements the better.
Boys/girls: Take it to RedState or DailyKos or wherever. Leave it off of BigSoccer (and yes, Webfoot, you are to blame for this tangent with your editorializing about the legislative priorities of PDX and the state of Oregon).
Hey, did you know the Portland/Garber interview was a good thing? http://ussoccerplayers.typepad.com/ian_plenderleith Oh my.
That part made me laugh. You can almost look at it as progress because before soccer fans were communists or anti-American. Now, according to these guys, soccer fans are hippies. Slow steady progress!
I can't speak for you, but i'm nowhere financially able to take care of it individually. I think that's exactly the sort of thing my taxes should support, and i'm happy paying those taxes. i also forgot that being disabled, an injured veteran, or mentally ill is a choice; merely a bad decision. thanks for the reminder. sorry once again for the derail... i'm done. on topic: this $20 million question may not be decided until after our next mayoral election. Many see Sam Adams (city commissioner currently) as already having it wrapped up. The whisperings in the portland soccer community are that Adams has soccer-friendly people in his ranks, if he's not already a supporter himself.
Respect for human dignity comes before everything else. If you can't respect the dignity of a human soul, no matter how down and out their material manifestations may be, then you only serve to diminish your own soul. The poster from Houston decided to move, so the way we take care of our community doesn't affect him any longer. Also, private charity and civic charity are not mutually exclusive. - Paul
If the new "in thing" on big soccer becomes retrofitting old baseball parks owned by municipalities, then Detroit will soon need a forum on MLS: Expansion. (of course an investor, fans, general interest might also help) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VqEXP5yMfg
Yes, really. 1) Someone else has a different opinion than you, and thinks that a decision that you don't like will eventually have benefits for society, 2) You're not the only voter in the world, and 3) You're not always going to win out. Personally, I think blaming the homeless for the lack of soccer stadiums in this country was a terrible idea that you executed quite poorly because you thought your opinion was so secure everyone would agree with you even if you threw in a half-baked argument. I think it's just better to say it's not impossible to get all the things that we want, or at least try to get all the things that we want. I get that soccer is something you value more than homeless people, but you made the awful, AWFUL mistake of making this an either/or proposition between two things that have a very specious connection to each other.
Yes, thanks for taking different parts of what I said out of context. Well done. And you even did it after quoting me directly which is amazing. I'll try again. What did I say? We are the sum total of our decisions in our lives. Even people who start out a little behind in life or go through tough circumstances can make the right decisions and be a useful member of society. Nowhere in there was it even implied that mental illness is a choice. I would define an injured veteran as someone who went through "tough circumstances" and someone who is mentally ill as "starting out a little behind". I can't even think how you can misinterpret me unless you have an agenda you want to further by twisting my comment. That was kind of pathetic.
You know what I also thought was incredulous? They made it sound like it was the unpopular minority opinion. (vague recollection of what was said) A: Because, hey, you know those soccer fans are hippies. B: Hmm, I hate to say it, but you're absolutely right. It's like no one's ever called us names before. It's a good strategy, really: always hint that you're talking about something no one else is talking about, but that everyone should. Typical Fox News-like reporting, with the NPR-like radio voices too.
Way to take what I said out of context. I did not blame the homeless for the lack of soccer stadiums in this country, idiot. I blame local and federal government for enabling what I see as bottomless pits. Titanole has stated this as eloquently as possible and yet some of you people still don't get it. The heroin boogeyman didn't roll up on these people in the middle of the night and jam needles in their arms. The home police didn't throw them out of the house in the middle of the night. In short, these people are the sum total of their decisions. So am I. So are you. As far as to whether or not I am the only voter. I AM IN MY WORLD. AND UNTIL YOU BECOME GOD ALMIGHTY I WILL EXPRESS MY OPINIONS ANY WAY I WANT. If I wish to state that homeless people and junkies are products of their own decisions I will state it as such. Last note. There is only so much money to go around, so yes, these items will most likely be mutually exclusive, especially in Portland. Any time talk of a stadium occurs for the mainstream sports, the immediate reaction is "we don't want to spend public money on sports teams, what about the homeless, what about education, what about police", etc. Not only are we up against that, add to the fact that soccer is not considered a mainstream sport. I stand by what I have stated. I prefer throwing money at positive endeavors instead of social dregs. You can call me the devil himself for all you like. You can put up 400 posts and I will answer in kind. Unless the mods decide to lock this thread which is obviously going nowhere. Have a horrible day.
webfoot: You may not think that throwing in your social editorializing is responsible for the threads derailment, but it is. You should very well know that people (especially Northwesterners) are going to find something to comment on with your statement. That said, you're absolutely right. It is absolutely your right as a citizen (and a voter, apparently) to hold those beliefs, and I don't particularly begrudge you for them. I think you're horribly, horribly wrong in your thinking, but that's my right as a citizen and a voter. I also agree with you as to there only being so much money to go around. I daresay that the voters in PDX probably wouldn't vote to tax themselves to build a stadium of any kind, whether or not there was government aid going to 'junkies and the homeless'. They sure as hell won't do it in Seattle. Also, to me, building a sports stadium really isn't creating jobs. You do create construction/contracting jobs for a limited time, and then once the stadium is filled you've just created an assload of minimum-wage jobs for high school kids and retirees (see Safeco Field). That is not, in my mind, a positive economic endeavor, it's more like building a thousand McDonalds (or however many McDonalds it would take to equal one stadium worth of employees).
Ok. How about those who DO make good decisions and still things turn to absolute crap for them? Chance plays a part in every person's life, whether you choose to believe that or not.
Awwww. Mister Poopy Face needs a hug. Don't worry, no one thinks you are a bad person, except for God. - Paul
Wow, that interview was just embarrassing. I thought Garber did a great job despite the ridiculous one-sided attitude of the two radio guys. The way they kept calling MLS minor league, reminded me of Jim Rome baiting Jim Everett by calling him Chris over and over again. Somehow I think those two idiots would be leading the charge for public funding if the NFL or Major League Baseball were thinking of expanding to Portland.
Except in Portlands case all PGE Park employees (as well as Rose Garden, Memorial Stadium etc) are subject to our living wage law. So while I agree with your general premise that stadiums are not economic booms for cities (this has been backed up by studies done by economists) in our city at least the guys and gals who sling beers for us at Timbers games make a decent wage.
Regarding your first point, the thread became derailed when the responses defended the homeless and junkies, you even stated that I should know very well that northwesterners would respond to that. Are they obligated to? If they let it go there is no derailment. On to your next point. Agreed. People will see things differently, as evidenced by this issue. I am not against freedom of speech, both yours and mine. President Bush and his band of idiots however, that's another thread. We will see whats left of the constitution/bill of rights when they get done with their term of "service". My main concern with Portland is this. Portland has forever had an inferiority complex versus Seattle. Seattle has 3 pro teams and Portland has......? These idiots hanging up on Garber aren't helping matters any. The NHL? Seriously? Has anybody priced those tickets lately? It ain't cheap. The NFL? Build a bigger stadium for fewer games? That doesn't make any sense. I don't want to see Portland/Seattle/Vancouver BC blow it. I remember what it was like in the 1970's. With international competition it has gotten better. Tell me that when you were watching Houston play in CCC and Superliga that you guys don't want a piece of that. The electricity coming through your TV set was nothing compared to the electricity in the stadium. You don't want to miss out on that.
To the point, I don't think the posters were defending homeless people and junkies specifically, I think they were defending governmental social aid. At least that's how I interpreted it. Hey, man, I live in Seattle (ok, so I'm a ferry ride away), so I guess I've got it made. People will rip me up one side of Qwest Field and down the other, but the atmosphere for the USOC match against Dallas was fan-freaking-tastic. I'm ready for that sort of thing here. We already got basically screwed on Safeco and Qwest, so I'm ready for them to be used more frequently than they are.
Webfoot you couldnt be further from the truth regarding Portland vis a vis Seattle. Every Portlander I know his a SUPERIORITY complex over Seattle - we just do things better down here from transportation to planning to cost of living to the cultural scene to politics. I don't know when you moved away but these days Portland is where its at. Back on this Canzano fella - From his blog on the Oregonlive site: http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/ Canzono's email and phone: johncanzano@aol.com 503-294-5065 Feel free to be as rude to him as he was to Garber.
If we whittled it down to those few, we wouldn't have such a big problem would we? I would put it to you, though, that there are more people in dire straits because of their own doing than just dumb luck. We don't want to acknowledge it because it make us sound mean and uncaring. And it's all about feeling better about ourselves. Life is not a giant wheel of chance. We do have free will. Things happen and we deal with them in a variety of ways. It is a series of choices. People overcome obstacles every day. They are to be applauded. Instead we pity those who do not and expect nothing more of them. That's enabling. You get more behavior you reward or condone. We regularly set up and throw money at government programs to "help" people that simply end up keeping them in a bad way. Free needles for addicts. New shopping carts for vagrants. We have been pouring cash into anti-poverty programs for decades and we still have poverty. Gee, I would have thought it would have worked by now. But the people who have made poor decisions will continue to do so, keeping them in poverty. But I am more than happy to be thought of by some of you as an evil meanie for expecting people to take personal responsibility and to rely less on government and more on themselves and private sector solutions. I still hope Portland lands an MLS side, preferrably without public funding of anything. And on that, I say shalom.
1) the inferiority complex stems from Sports, sports and sports, and music. I moved from Portland in 2000. 2) Is this the buttplug that was rude to Garber? If so, I see correspondence in my future. And being rude is right up my alley. Thanks for the information.
Dude I could drive a MacTruck the the holes in your arguments here. We have been "pouring cash" for years into curing cancer - but cancer still exists I guess we should just stop huh? We have been "pouring cash" for years into defense spending but somehow war still exists - I guess we should just stop huh? We have been "pouring cash" for years into education but uneducated people still exist - I guess we should just stop huh? The famous Molly Ivins quote - "George Bush was born on the Third Base of life and thinks he hit a home run" applies in spades to your argument here. People born into stable families of at least modest means are taught they have options and they have choices and how to make correct choices. Children born into more chaotic situations are taught less about life and about choices and hence do not always make the "right" choice but I guess its their fault right? They should know better and pick themselves up and make better choices etc etc etc Every person that I know that expouses the "self-suffiency, make better choices, wag your finger at the poor people/drug addicts etc" argument has been a white male who somehow thinks that having the dumb luck of being born white and male in this society doesnt already start you out about 5 paces ahead of the rest (disclosure - I am a white male born to a middle class family and am fully concious of the advantages these things gave me from birth).