MLS Regular Season MVP

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Bryan Gividen, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    Alright, discussions are being made about it, but I decided I'd throw a poll up for it. Took the obvious candidates and put them out there for everyone to vote on. In alphabetical order... (NOTE: I am only including those players which I believe have an honest shot at the title. Sorry, Chris Armas and some other defensive staples are going to be left out.)

    Landon Donovan: 22 games played, 12 goals scored, 6 assists. Netted a hat trick and two double games during the year. National team duty kept him away from 8 club games. Tied for league leader in Game Winning Goals. San Jose's leading scorer.

    Preki: 30 games played, 12 goals, 17 assists. One of only 5 field players to start all 30 games this season. Budweiser Scoring Leader. 40 years old and still going. Kansas City's leading scorer.

    Ante Razov: 26 games played, 14 goals, 6 assists. Lead the league in Shots, Shots on Goal. Led Chicago to a Supporter's Shield title.

    Carlos Ruiz: 26 games played, 15 goals, 5 assists. 5 of his goals came from Penalty Kicks. 2 games missed due to card suspension. Tied for league leader in Game Winning Goals. Los Angeles' leading scorer.

    John Spencer: 27 games played, 14 goals, 5 assists. Tied for league leader in Game Winning Goals. Colorado's leading scorer.

    Taylor Twellman: 22 games played, 15 goals, 4 assists. Led the league in points per game. Games missed due to injury. Led most offensive team, New England, in scoring.
  2. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    PREKI's the man.
  3. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well it definitly looks right now like Preki is the MVP. I would have to agree, I mean which other player in the league has played a bigger part for his team? Preki was in on 29 of the Wizards 48 goals.
  4. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    I just realized that Preki put up the exact same stats as he did 4 years ago when he won the Budweiser Scoring Title. 12 goals, 17 assists. Only player to have more assists than goals to win it too. That's friggin cool.
  5. ktsd

    ktsd Member

    Jul 20, 1999
    Bethel, CT, USA
    Oof. I thought you were being fairly objective until I read THIS. Sheesh. Everyone knows DC is the most offensive team.

    But seriously, it would be tragic if Preki did NOT win this honor.

    Kevin D.
  6. jameseyla

    jameseyla Member

    Jun 8, 2003
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    as much as i hate pricki, he earned it. without him, the wizards and dallas would have been fighting hard for last place...and he's 41!!!

    lets just hope bruce arena doesnt try to call him up for the 2006 world cup.

    no other field player was consistent all year.
  7. dred

    dred Member+

    Nov 7, 2000
    Land of Champions
    I'll make the case for Donovan.

    Look at PK's made/attempted!

    Ruiz 7-9 (!)
    Preki 5-6 (!)
    Razov 5-6
    Spencer 4-5

    Twellman 0-1
    Donovan 1-1

    So four of these guys had tremendous opportunities to pad their stats.

    Despite the lack of PK attempts, Donovan matched Preki in points per game (Twellman is the only one better).

    Donovan missed 8 games but none of them were due to injury or suspension, so his absences do not represent defects.

    Despite missing 8 games, Donovan tied for the lead in game-winning goals, so his goals were important goals.

    Donovan led his team to a division title.

    Donovan is a well-rounded player who does a lot more than get goals and assists, that's why he's Honda Player of the Year and a national team fixture.
  8. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    Whoa whoa whoa... I agree with you, Donovan is definitely a well-rounded player who deserves to be considered for MVP, but the reason he is the Honda Player of the Year is because there are a bunch of ignorant people voting. Bocanegra deserved that award hands down.
  9. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the points per 90 minutes leaders with penalty goals removed (min 1500 minutes):

    1. Taylor Twellman - 1.62
    2. Pat Noonan - 1.48
    3. Edson Buddle - 1.43
    4. Landon Donovan - 1.34
    5. Damani Ralph - 1.18
    6. Preki - 1.04
    7. John Spencer - 0.99
    8. Mark Chung - 0.95
    9. Ante Razov - 0.95
    10. Brian McBride - 0.95

    Noonan's and McBride's totals are a bit inflated due to the end of season farces they played in.
  10. Wizardscharter

    Wizardscharter New Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    Blue Springs, MO
    It has to be the elder statesman, #11.

    Good points. They still don't overcome his missing over 25% of the team's games. Onstad probably wins SJ's team MVP. Also, even if you take away his pk's (a silly concept, but whatever), Preki is still on the scoresheet 6 more times than Donovan.

    Another fact - Here's the list of MLS players to lead MLS in assists and not win the MVP: Etch (Valderamma had the same nuimbers on TB, who won the East over dc in '96), Ralston (twice, Kreis outscored by 26 points, and Ruiz 24 goals), Serna (to teammate Pineda-Chacon who finished all those assists), Valderamma (Meola's dream season)

    In '03 there is no dominant pacesetter, Preki doesn't have a dominant teamate finishing (if he did, he would have had 30 assists, BTW), no 16 SO GK, and Preki won the Bud title by several lengths.

    Done deal. Preki's the MVP.
  11. Wizardscharter

    Wizardscharter New Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    Blue Springs, MO
    Here's the points per team's appearance on the field:

    1-10. See Bud scoring chart and divide by 30.
  12. Wizardscharter

    Wizardscharter New Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    Blue Springs, MO
    # of non-card entries on scoresheet:

    1. Preki - 29
    2. Razov - 20
    3-200. - Less

    It's Preki.
  13. BenC1357

    BenC1357 Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    Yawn. PKs are a goal too right? When you win a game 1-0 with a PK do they put an asterisk next to it in the standings to make it count for less? Do they list it in the paper at 1 PK- 0? Nope, didn't think so.

    1) Was the MVP title all the sudden changed to the "Most Points Per Game" title? Come back when they start the MPPG award, maybe then you'll be on to something.
    2) Your last note is comical. If you're going to make a note about every single "inflation due to farces" then why don't we throw out half the results teams played against Dallas as well? Just as I stated above about PKs, PKs are goals and goals in game #1 count the same as goals in game #30.
  14. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, didn't know.
  15. dawgpound2

    dawgpound2 Member

    Mar 3, 2001
    Los Angeles, CA
    PK's count. Let's remember who was DRAWING those pk's, especially for the Galaxy. Some guy named Ruiz.

    I'd go:

    in that order.
  16. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Actually, I heard that he only drew about 3 or 4 of those pks.
  17. BenC1357

    BenC1357 Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    No, I think that if you look at overall performance there are 5 guys who deserve serious consideration. Preki, Donovan, Armas, Razov and Spencer. I explained it elsewhere, but MVP is most valuable player. NOT who score the most per game, who scored the most without corners and free kicks, who scored the most without PKs, etc. Preki played every game, was directly involved in 60% of the Wizards goals, and the team wouldnt have done near as good without him.

    Yes, I'm biased, but I don't think that eliminates me from the discussion. Even if I'm biased, that doesn't take away from the fact that (IMO) I'm making very good counter arguments to your points. Yet, your only response to my points is to quote me, change my post, and make a smart ass comment. :rolleyes:
  18. brianzappa

    brianzappa Member

    Oct 21, 2003
    In a big country
    Preki deserves the award.
    He's a pure creator on the field, and a generous one, at that... winning the scoring championship with mostly assists, which count half as much as goals.
  19. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Yawn. PKs are a goal too right?"

    And _I_ started the smartass comments?
  20. BenC1357

    BenC1357 Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    My statement was in response to dred, who was implying that Preki's stats are somehow "lesser" because of PKs. dred, like you, also mentioned points per game. Last I checked, points per game doesn't matter one bit. What if a guy played half the season, and scored 15 goals. He's got a PPG of 2, but hardly deserving of any MVP consideration correct?

    You're still not commenting on my points (Some from another thread):
    1) PPG doesn't, and shouldn't, matter in determining an MVP.
    2) If a player plays every single game, and is the "go to guy" on free kicks, PKs and corners he should in no way be punished when his stats are higher than others. He's the go to guy for that very reason, he produces.
    3) PKs are goals just like regular goals. This isn't the "Should PKs be a separate stat" thread, so if we're using stats are reasoning for MVP consideration a goal is a goal.
    4) Points scred in "farce games" count just the same as all other games. If you start to get that vague in looking at the MVP race you're going to have quite a confusing discussion.
    5) Sure, others are qualified and deserve consideration, but how can someone who scored 2-3 less goals than the rest of the pack, had 10 more assists than the rest of the pack and played in every single one of his teams games not be a front runner?
  21. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not saying he's not a front runner (I chose him for my First XI) I just don't think he should win.

    Plus, if we simply want to talk about all-around play, it needs to be said that Preki doesn't play a lick of defense which is a major issue for someone who is notionally a midfielder. We also need to note San Jose's better record, particularly in games before they clinched the conference championship.

    Basically, the big arguments for Preki are essentially his stats, and I think when you dig closer at them, they're not as impressive as Donovan's or Twellman's.

    Yes, there's more to MVP than just numbers, but then I don't think Preki wins those arguments either. His defense is non-existent, his team didn't play all that well, his team didn't over-achieve despite lacking talent around him (Chicago and San Jose both overachieved compared to expectations). Finally, I don't think he's a better player than Landon Donovan right now and I think that should be a small factor.

    I wouldn't vote for him for MVP.
  22. BenC1357

    BenC1357 Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    I'll try to do this one at a time, as clearly as possible...

    I disagree. I think your example makes the player in question more efficient. Valuable is what Preki did, he was available every single game for his team. Missing 8 of your team's games isn't good for the team no matter how you look at it. Twellman and Donovan did more with their time, but its a season long award, not a per game award.
    You seem to be comparing the three, and liked to use points per minutes played. What about involvement in the teams goals? I mean, because that is really a direct look at how much they did for their team, correct? Percentage of times the player either scored or assisted in the teams goals (note: in games the player was on the field)
    Preki: 60%
    Donovan: 53%
    Twellman: 50%

    To summarize, the Wizards needed Preki more to get production than the other teams needed. ie, more valuable to your team.

    Again, my point here is that you seem to be downgrading Preki's numbers, and therefore accomplishments, because he's the on that happens to take all the set kicks. Its a tribute to Preki's skills that he's talented enough to be trusted with all these kicks. It's not Preki's fault that other players don't get the same priveledges on their teams.

    Eh? First, it sure looks like in the point totals for all the players that a goal counts as a goal. If one team scores a PK and another scores on a beautiful bicycle, the final score is still 1-1, not 1.1-0.9. What arent you understanding about this point. When the ball hits the net, its a goal. Period.

    They all count the same, and thats all that matters. The reason these people are choosen (Preki, Ruiz, etc.) is because they are more likely to score than the others. So I disagree that you're claiming all others would have made the goal.

    So, back when Chicago beat San Jose in (i think) June 4-1 those four goals are tainted as well? Because San Jose played a reserve side because of many injuries. I'll agree that these two games your talking about were "meaningless" to the standings. But you used the fact that certain players scored in these games, thus effecting their PPG averages to a false number. I disagree, a games a game.

    Preki isn't a midfielder. He may still be listed as a midfielder, but its pretty widely known that he plays a free role in what is basically a 3-4-3 for the Wizards. Some uninformed people may put it down as a 3-5-2, but that front person of the 5 is really a third forward in Preki.

    You're right. And the record may be what convinces some to vote for Donovan. That and blind voters, like the same voters that gave him the Honda Player of the Year award.

    Disagree. Wolff was "expected" to give 15 goals to the Wizards (those words came from Wolff and Gansler's mouths). Preki was just supposed to feed him the rock. That didn't work out and Preki had to step it up. San Jose and Chicago were going to be good teams. Some people, myself included, didn't think Chicago would be quite as good, but I never really doubted that San Jose would be a good team. What the hell does preseason expectations have to do with MVP anyways, its based souly on performace during the season.

    1) MVP isn't based on who's the "better" player. Its based on performance. Lots of people perform better than others with more talent.
    2) "Right now" doesnt matter. Preki did it for 30 games. Donovan played well, but really did most of his producing in a short month span.
  23. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    My note on this whole debate on PPG and Goals scored from Penalty Kicks...

    These DO matter when making a decision about Most Valuable Player. If you think that someone else on the team could have made the same amount of PKs, then your decision in who the MVP is, matters. Not to say that PKs should count differently in any goal scoring race, but that it is a factor when it comes down to who is selected as the MVP.

    On the Points Per Game. Yeah, I think its a factor. Had Twellman been healthy (it was his own guts, or idiocy whichever you prefer, which got him injured, but it put him out of some games) he definitely would have been the goal scoring leader this year. He also had some Nats team call ups.

    Donovan's PPG average is nearly identical to Preki's. Donovan was off helping the National Team.

    My mind stays the same, I think Preki is by far the most valuable asset to any team in the league, but cases can be made for these other players. A player's entire season should be taken into account. How he scored goals, how dependent a team was on a player, his attitude, everything. Because one person things that PKs aren't as much as a regular, well that comes down to personal preference.
  24. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, but why are you attributing all the _value_ of that goal to Preki when he's contributing very little that anyone else couldn't also.

    Sure it's a goal, but it's only _Preki's_ goal due to the way the game is scored. If you decided to try and parse who deserves the most credit for creating a goal scored on a penalty, it's unlikely that you're going to give huge credit to the guy who knocked it home. At least not nearly as much credit as the guy who scored on the bike.

    Sure it counts as "his" goal, but his contribution to the goal being scored is far less.
  25. BenC1357

    BenC1357 Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    You just opened a whole new can of worms...

    Many goals, hell possibly a majority of goals, are scored by a person who did less of the work to get the goal. I'll conceed to common sense that often times it takes less effort to get a PK goal than a run of play goal. But that isn't to say that in many of the goals scored during the run of play the person that scored didnt do the lion's share of the work for the goal. How often do you see a midfielder bust his ass down the wing, only to get all the way to the keeper and slot a pass to a forward on the opposite side for an open netter. It can be argued that the open netter is nearly as easy, if not easier than a PK. My only point here is that if PKs were so easy, different people would take them all the time. They don't because its a skill like any other, and you want only your best taking the spot kick.
    You just keep throwing around this word "value". The value of something is measured in what it is worth, correct? In this case, a goal is worth ONE no matter how it goes in. Maybe there is another adjective, but value isn't doing it for me. In the end every goal is worth ONE on the scoreboard and 2 in the scoring race. Bryan Gividen is partially correct in that you've got to take every single aspect into deciding who an MVP should be, but I dont think that 5 of 12 goals is enough to take away from the overall performance that Preki turned in this season.

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