After watching a game tonight, I was sicken by the way the MLS ref do their job. Granted they are human you and I, but if you or I ever did a piss poor job every week, you and I would get fired. So my question is, why doesn't the MLS send the refs to Europe to leanr how to improve their job and why are MLS refs afraid to pull the card when certian plays warrent it. I'm just tried of seeing the MLS ruined by people who seem to jog around like chickens with their heads cut off.
You are not going to get much of a response to your post if you fail to list which match and the particulars of why you felt they did a bad job.
Re: Re: MLS Refs(rant inside) There are way too many matches to list and I am talking in general with fouls. For example, under normal circumstances, doesn't going in studs first, let alone, with both feet in the air worthy of at least a yellow?
The link below is from the Mass State Ref Committee. It contains comments and observations on the refereeing in the MLS by Bob Evans a former FIFA ref and instructor. It was dated 9/24/02. http://www.massref.net/fea1102a.htm The state of refereing in the MLS has not improved in the last year. It is difficult to properly referee a youth game when in so many cases they are just doing what they have seen the MLS "professionals" getting away with on a regular basis.
HA HA. send them to europe. have you been watching some of those games? During the exchanges with european referees and MLS officials a couple of years ago the european refs did not fare so well that it was dropped. Every country thinks their referees need to go get some experience somewhere else. what else is new.
Re: Re: MLS Refs(rant inside) DCU vs Columbus 9/19/03 Inconsistent officiating. 2 Shaky pk calls No control over match Bad/unclear signaling That's a start.
The first thing the referees need to do is stop taking the verbal abuse heaped on by players. The outburst by Stoichkov and Oughton were the two most memorable from yesterday. Both of those players should be thanking their little lucky stars that they were not sent off. Hristo could have had a red for that elbow alone and Duncan's bad tackle on Dema should have produced the a second yellow and then the red. Letting players express themselves in that manner sets the wrong tone for who in charge of managing matches. Yes, it would result in some very poorly timed red cards and possibly some multiple-send-off games, but its gotta be done. Apparently MLS or USSF has instructed the referees to be verbal punching bags. It would be terribly inconsistent to deploy a new policy now, but they should look at this for next year. I also think would improve the league's image with the general public. I would be nice to see an exchange between a player and referee that didn't involve a cluster so F-bombs.
I'm a DC fan, but I still think Hristo should have gotten two yellows for dissent. MLS really has to do something about dissent. IMO, if they clean up that problem, the referees will be more confident, and therefore more consistent, and that will take care of alot of the problems with the CRs. It bears repeating that IMO, MLS ARs can match up to any league I've seen (and I have FSW.) The problem is with the CRs. Anyway, this is how bad the DC game yesterday was...I'm a DC fan, and I thought he helped our team. I can only imagine how Crew fans felt about it.
The latest MLS conference calls discussed this, and also suggested that referees communicate with players more than relying on the cards. If we send them to Europe, more than likely, we'd see better man management and less cards, not more of them. RedcardLeopard
Yes, I would like to see better man management, too, but it is not going to happen without a flurry of cards to let MLS players know that the league and USSF will not stand for the level dissent that is currently in place. The players need to know that this is serious and their behavior will affect their team's ability to compete. From my vantage point, the MLS players are LEADING with the F-bomb. There's no discussion--only dissension. Man management will not be possible under players get their emotions in check and exhibit reasonable behavior. Once reasonable behavior becomes the norm, then I am all for man management.
Refs evaluating refs? I too have been angered by the poor MLS officiating, so much so that I will not renew my DC United season tickets next year. Why pay good money to go watch a game ruined by consistently poor officiating? What has disappointed me is that when I check this "Referee" thread each week, I don't see any of the referees posting critical analyses of that week's MLS officiating. Is there a code of silence? I think that the incompetence of its officials is the number two problem needed to be solved by MLS after getting soccer specific stadiums.
There is a code of ethics.. and there is seemingly an unwritten rule that the stars of a league.. any league.. tend to get preferential treatment. If you think it's just limited to MLS though, I advise you to watch some Nationwide First Division games from Europe and see some laughable officiating or watch EPL games and see players getting away with murder. RC
Advising to watch officiating incompetence in other leagues does not address the incompetence of MLS officiating. Am I correct to assume, most of the posting refereess on this board get to see many of the MLS games, either live or on TV? If so, what is it the consensus opinion of the BigSoccer referee posters on the quality of MLS officiating? Finally, what can MLS, the individual teams, the players, or the fans do to improve the quality of officiating? As a fan, I'm tossing in the towel and gonna switch my soccer contributions to other leagues.
Hmmm.. How to improve the quality of refereeing in the MLS? Well, one, people can't have it both ways. We can't have strict refs and still have the cheaters and divers of the league (who conveiently enough, are also the stars) playing every game. Something is going to give. Landon a few weeks ago is a prime example. That boy should have picked up another Yellow and gotten sent off. He didn't , because mostly he's a hero of the MLS. Twellman also has a few of those diving tendencies. The Ra'Ra's of Chicago are some loud mouths as well. The question is on that regard, do you want the refs to punish the players at the cost of MLS attendance or not? I agree the officiating is horrid, but I think this is less to do with officials and more to do with their higher ups in the league ordering/requesting things not be called. If you read the MLS conference call notes (which are available on line) you'll see that many of the instructions have been basically to talk to players more in an attempt to lessen the cards. Then they turn around a few weeks later and say that dissenters NEED cards. Then they say that man management should be used. The league is oscillating through these two extremes, of call everything and card everything, and man-manage to avoid carding everything. I am not defending these refs by any stretch.. but they are usually grade 4 or grade 3 refs. They've had a lot of experience. Your typical grade 4 has ref'd over 500 games at increasing levels, has been a ref at least 5 years. Has passed over 13 assessments, completed the national referee training course, and passed the difficult Fifa/Cooper test. To imply that referees at that level don't know the game is a joke. They know the game. The people that don't seem to know the game are those executives who've decided that they need the fans more than they need the laws followed. To that end, players have gotten away with stuff, and that needs to be cuirtailed. I hesitate to think this is all the ref's doing. I did notice one thing, though. It seemed those good refs have gotten fewer and fewer MLS assignments. Jarrod
For starters, I would rotate refs getting bad ratings to the 4th official or back to linesman for a few games and give some of the Senior Assistants some games early in the season. Am I correct in assuming that the coaches and possibly someone from the league rates the officials after every match? Are these ratings public? How poor do the officials have to get before they are replaced? Is there a video de-briefing by the MLS to point out an official's good and bad calls and indicate where he needs to improve? What is the process for getting MLS game experience to a broader pool of referees? I rode Nathan Clement last year for many missed calls as the Senior Assistant. His performance has improved this year. Give him and other SA's a shot at the middle. He can't do worse than Kennedy, Kenny, and Okulaja.
Got to disagree about Twellman being a diver. A quadruple amputee could count the number of times Taylor's gotten a PK this season on his fingers. He's not even in the top ten for fouls suffered. Perhaps you were thinking of Ruiz?
I was. I was thinking Ruiz. As for the last question regarding the video conference calls. YES , there are conference calls. YES, they go over video. YES these calls are public. Are the ratings public? No.. but by nature, it's USSF policy to not release any assessed ratings, but simply the end result.. to the official only. For the official's betterment. A better question is, why are the better refs getting fewer and fewer assignments? Jarrod
Well a mate of mine told me that reffing is getting to be political. For example instead of turning in a list of refs the coaches, do NOT want, it is now who THEY want. What is the world coming to?
Though some National Referees may reach that level with the above statistics, the 'typical' National or FIFA Referee from the US has probably reffed in excess of one or two thousand games, passed hundred of assessments, and been a referee for around about 10+ years. As for Hal's suggestions regarding rotating officials. Working as an AR or a 4th in MLS (or, any pro league in the US) is not a 'demotion' in the sense that those casual observers may feel it is. Beginning at about the A-League level (and, earlier at some specific referee academies), USSF officials are 'tracked' to either be CRs or ARs. The very best CRs that we have in the US--Lowry, Clement, Strickland, Eddy, Reed, etc.--have only worked as ARs at the top level, because that's what their job is. They rarely ever work as CRs once they reach this level of their career. Most work their one or two matches (typically in W-League or PDL) a year, so that they can get their maintenance assessment for National Referee and retain their badge. ARs in the US are tracked as ARs and, consequently, as superdave says, we have some of the absolute best in the world. They are great at what they do. It is doubtful, however, that they'd be as great at being CRs. Similarly, being a 4th official is not a demotion. Most 4ths in the MLS fall into two categories. Either they are younger, newer National Referees who are working as 4ths to get acquainted with the league and prepared to step into their roles as CR. Or, they are more experienced CRs who work occassional games as 4ths to assist their younger or less experienced counterparts who are CRs. There is no real 'promotion/demotion' involved. If you fail two assessments, you're gone from MLS for the year. It happened three times last year, and only one of those referees made it back. All four officials on every match are observed by an in-stadium observer (ISO) who offers advice after the match, while a National Assessor or FIFA Inspector assigned by MLS assesses the performance of all officials by video. Plus, coaches' evaluations are taken into account. For those that think there is no oversight by MLS/USSF, you are wrong. There is. The problem is, as is shown both in this thread and on these boards as a whole, there is no simple answer to the question of 'what do we [fans, coaches, players] want out of our officials?'. After a highly controversial match with a few send offs, these boards are flooded with messages regarding overzealous referees who just want to be noticed. Conversely, when a referee 'let's them play' and some fans feel that certain plays were wrongly left unpunished, the messages about gross incompetence pop up. Many times, it's the same people complaining about both styles. The fact is, referees in MLS are being pushed and pulled in all different directions. USSF has come out hard against all forms of violence and dissent, imploring referees to give red cards when they are needed, and to not shy away from doing what is right. MLS, with their product in mind, doesn't want to see the referees the center of the show, and doesn't want to see their stars missing too many games. So, the league implicitly has an opposing view. The question is not about 'how quick we throw out a referee from the MLS rotation?', but the real question is 'how do we reconcile the need to improve on-field behavior without being accused of having overzealous or incompetent referees?' Many, like some on this thread, want to see a flurry of cards for a good period of time in the hopes of correcting behavior. Others would turn in their season tickets (like some on this thread) because they wouldn't want to go to the matches to watch the referee. It's a tough situation to resolve, but to apply the blame solely to the MLS referees is incorrect.
We're still developing as a soccer country. The players we have that are just now beginning to be recognized as world class (Donovan, Beasley, Howard, etc.), with a few excpetions such as Reyna and the keepers, all of them are in their early to mid 20s. Considering that refs tend to be in their 30s and 40s at the highest levels, one can conceivably say that we're 10 years away from developing a cadre of world class refs. That's not to say there won't be exceptions (Tamberino, Baharmast), but ultimately they won't be comparable in number to the players until the generation that is currently in their mid 20s, prime of their careers for players, hits their late 30s to early 40s, prime of their careers for referees. This is not to make excuses for the current crop of refs. Certainly everything should be done to try and improve the level of refereeing as much as possible and try and work out the differences between the instructions from USSF and MLS. But, as much as it may pain us, and believe me, watching the DC-Columbus game was painful (and I'm a fan of the team that arguably benefited the most from the inconsistent refereeing), we're gonna have to show a degree of patience.
Have you taken a good hard look at the European leagues? I'm convinced that they talk to players LESS than the guys in MLS. When i watch the EPL, when players approach to argue, the refs frequently wave them away or turn around and go about their business. The problem is that the refs are putting up with TOO MUCH and they need to get the dissent under control. Heck, i've seen Sir Alex Ferguson thrown off the pitch as a manager for dropping an F-bomb on the ref from the sideline, yet guys in this league are screaming a stream of curses at refs and walking away without a yellow. that's just crazy.
I have taken a good hard look at the EPL, yes. You don't see much communication because Sky and other European networks tend to not show referee interactions. The belief is that the game is for the Players. That said.. SAF wasn't tossed after he dropped "A F-bomb" He was dropped after he dropped about the twelfth "F-bomb" after a few "wankers" And take a good look at the Mexican leagues too.. or the Barselio.. or the Bundesliga. They dissent ALL the time. Jarrod
Thank you very much Buck25. This assessment rang very true to me and may re-direct my anger at MLS instead of poor officiating. Why doesn't the USSF step in and take control of asigning and training the referees that ref the MLS games? How is it allowed for the MLS office to put out such guidance contradictory to the LOTG?
one simple comment on the dissent our society lends itsellf to allow this type of behavior. In fact it is expected ... Look at the other sports like football, Baseball, Basketball. But i will say they are working on it from what i hear it is just the league is wanting the referees to do it, but the referees are hesitant, in fact one referee did that last year and he sat from october to June of this year.. so interesting they (league) say they want it but when done and certain teams do not agree with it thn referee is shot down
I do watch some matches. And it's crystal clear: MLS CRs don't measure up. The players in MLS are closer to the quality of the players of those leagues, than the CRs are.