MLS needs to start caring about the USMNT again

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Repped for this great summary.

    The most recent incidence of cognitive dissonance I have is why Mendez and Ledesma weren’t able to secure an attractive offer from the teams they went to? Even Jordan Morris at 21 yes old was able to get an offer way above what they’ve purportedly received. It may be that they weren’t will to accept even medium term commitments but that’s just my musing. Thoughts?
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Ledesma (from the RSL academy) has a good deal at PSV because they have minimum salaries for foreign players. I think you mean Llanez.

    Mendez and Llanez hired an agent, Gary Kleiban, who has no clue what he's doing. Gary is the brother of Brian Kleiban, who was the head of the Galaxy academy. So instead of urging his players sign with the Galaxy, Brian shuttled them off to his brother the agent to send to Europe. Sketchy at best. Brian Kleiban has recently been fired by the Galaxy in disgrace.

    What's undoubtedly true is that young Americans are getting paid more and more and more every year to stay in MLS.

    You can see this trend in the homegrown salaries of FCD players. Thomas Roberts makes ~$140k. Brandon Servania makes ~$210k. That's a hell of a lot more than the young players used to make in MLS (other than the precious few Generation Adidas players like Adu and company). Its a hell, hell, hell of a lot more than Mendez and Llanez make.

    I do think the whole discussion of this thread is ignoring the obvious trend that MLS is doing EXACTLY what the posters want them to do. They're investing in young domestic players. Garber has talked about MLS becoming more of a selling league. [You have to develop young players overseas teams want before you can become a selling league.]

    30 kids still eligible for US youth national teams played in MLS this past weekend. 30! People do realize that 14 players eligible for the 2021 U20 cycle have played in MLS this season (Leyva, Pepi, Yow, Alvarez, Anderson, Busio, Ocampo-Chavez, Fuentes, Araujo, Bassett, Haak, Roberts, Reynolds, Arriaga) That doesn't include more that have played in the USOC. The same number to play in the Bundesliga season that just ended? Two.............
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  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #303 adam tash, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    I wouldn't say that at all.

    I would say that MLS can treat the domestic pool in different ways that will lead to different outcomes.

    One of those approaches could be: maximizing US-eligible players' development while also not being detrimental to the league's bottomline.

    I think it would be a huge error to look at allowing a player like Kellyn Acosta to transfer when the "iron is hot" as a sacrifice for MLS. it's not. they would get paid.
    even if they didn't, it wouldn't be a sacrifice! Cole Bassett is right there....

    there's a clogged pipeline in terms of unproven players getting their chance in MLS....the more players are allowed to leave the league the more new players are allowed to bubble up.

    It's a win-win for EVERYONE.

    I would argue that MLS wants to clog the pipeline.

    It thinks that the Walker Zimmerman's and the Graham Zusi's and the Roldan's and the Acosta's are not easily replaced....I don't.

    When McCarty and Klesjtan got traded from RBNY the majority consensus was what are they doing? they are going to tank etc....

    then they went on to break the single season points record without those players. if they hadn't been sold and opened the path for tyler adams etc...adams would likely still be in MLS!

    I think if you give opportunities to these unproven USLers....a la Aaron Long....you will see that many of these players who never make it in MLS can actually be adequate - and in some cases exceptional - MLS players.

    But because of MLS' approach to retaining domestic "stars"....that the entire pipeline is clogged by that approach and that MUCH LESS development occurs as a result.

    I would argue that the whole "missing generation" in the USMNT recently...is a result of this very dynamic that MLS takes with domestic players and how it treats domestics and the opportunities it gives them.

    Imagine if Colorado never got Kellyn Acosta...and he was transferred to Europe....would that have ruined the Rapids? Would that have even had any impact at all on their results since they got him?

    I would argue no. they couldve have easily filled hi spot on the roster with a plethora of other similar players.

    the global supply of players is HUGE....the global supply of domestic-eligible players is FINITE.

    for the proven domestics it is a good scenario. for the unproven ones it is a disadvantage.

    the unproven domestics are where the development of players is going to happen or not happen.

    this is not a situation where there is PLAN A or PLAN B.....there are many shades of strategy and policy MLS could employ. It's much more complex than "MLS can sacrifice and help USMNT or MLS can profit"....I reject that dichotomy.
     
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  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it can be both.

    It can be developmental to domestic talent.

    And destinational to foreign talent.

    And that is exactly what it is kinda trying to be....

    I just think it could be doing a better job on the domestic-development front...part of that includes more of a "how do we help our domestics get to where they want to be?" approach (i don't think that shift would hurt MLS' bottomline! and might even help it).....although recent developments do show that it seems to be trying to shift more in that direction. it just hasn't really made much of a difference yet.
     
  5. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    This is the question, but that's only your reality. For me, the reality is that the primary role of MLS is to offer the best live soccer in the United States that it can. And for me, the primary role of the LA Galaxy is to win championships. Most things that MLS does makes sense to me because we (the league and I) have the same understanding of the goals of the league.
     
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  6. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yup. The Galaxy have to look out for #1 first. Do what helps them be a successful business and win games/trophies. They had a good academy coach (Brian Kleiban) that was shuttling players to his brother and Europe? They fired him. Why? Because the purpose of MLS academies is to develop players to the MLS first team.

    Is Zlatan good for business? Hell yes. In every way possible.

    FC Dallas is starting an 18 year old at forward in Jesus Ferreira. He just got US citizenship. Is he putting fans in seats or moving jerseys or glueing eyeballs to tv sets? No. I guarantee you if FCD signed Chicharito tomorrow, they'd all of a sudden sell out home games.

    I think folks also underestimate MLS' place in the world market at the moment. They are currently buying players from the best leagues in South America. The reigning CONMEBOL player of the year just moved to MLS on a huge transfer deal. There was a recent window (maybe it was the Barco one) in which the combined transfer spend of MLS was higher than that of Serie A clubs. MLS clubs have financial might.that I think some folks underestimate. MLS doesn't view itself as solely some developmental league. It has an ambition to become much more than that.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    And that’s the problem IMO. MLS thinks of itself and Garber has repeatedly stated, that is it one of the best leagues in the world.

    It isn’t. It’s level of play is B2/championship which while far from being poor, isn’t close to being “one of the best”.
     
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  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It certainly is a minor league. There’s no question that it’s close to the big 4 in terms of level of play.
     
  9. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Oh, absolutely. Clearly. But those are separate statements. Just because it's not at the level of the big 4 doesn't mean that its primary focus should be development. There are a bunch of teams in the big 4 who are not champions league quality but people still enjoy watching them play. Same for MLS. It's a league designed to entertain people who want a local/american team to root for even if the team is not the best in the world.
     
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  10. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    If you want the latest travesty, so we burned 2018 waiting on Stewart from the Union (August) and then GB from the Crew (EOY). And then when Austin wants Wolff, he is released mid-year like magic from USMNT.

    Personally I wasn't a fan of his being made a senior team assistant, but it's the principle of the thing. Your contracts are sacrocsanct -- and we have to wait until your timescale for release -- but you can have our NT coaches in July.
     
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  11. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Long is a huge outlier and as such really doesn't fit the general idea of what you posted about. Aaron benefitted was picked up from the scrap heap and built up by RBNY to his current form thanks to years of patient work. On top of that they quickly gave him a tremendous salary. If there was ever a player that owed anything to club it is Long. Final point is that he has a measly 5 million as his release clause.

    I would say that Cannon or Ariola is a better fit for your argument.
     
  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I think that this is a pertinent thread but it also needs to be said that this year MLS has improved tremendously in the quality of their development work. The problem is that some clubs just are not pulling their weight.
     
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  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #313 juvechelsea, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    Long was just signed to a new deal last winter. You don't sell someone you just signed, or if you do, they back up the bank truck reflecting the contract. People are reading their biases into publicizing an offer made within 5 months of his new deal. If someone had just signed for ManU, played well, and got a NT callup which generally went well, would it be out the door first offer 5 months into that contract? No. So it's basically people trotting out the facile theory that any time someone comes calling at any contract stage, our duty is to sell. This is all snobbery talking.

    Among other things, the idea that we should blow up our teams mid season so they can have our guys for preseason is dubious. I think we should be buying in July and selling in January.

    I also find amusing at a time when our best CBs are domestic, the argument that they need to go abroad to develop. It's kind of a stubborn insistence that Big Club is better even as you struggle to incorporate the MLS backline upstarts into the matrix. And even as Brooks, Yedlin, etc, kind of suck.

    I also find amusing as Miazga goes on loan to Reading the implication that these are transactions necessarily done to play them at the signing team, and not necessarily asset deals or shirt sellers. FWIW I'd prefer Long someplace more calibrated where he gets to play same place he signs. Last thing we need is more players picking up splinters or off on rotating loans.
     
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  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think every team in developmental leagues want to win their league and they do that by developing great young players.

    They also sell them to keep the machine moving. That’s what MLS should be - not a home for declining players or even worse by overpaying for our best USMNT players in/before their prime and having them play at a minor league level.
     
  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #315 Clint Eastwood, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    The ambition of Garber is that MLS develops into one of the best leagues in the world. That SHOULD be his goal as commissioner to think and believe that. What do you think he's going to say? "Yeah, I think we should just know our place and waddle in mediocrity for the rest of our existence."

    I think that even now its arguably the 3rd or 4th best league in the Western Hemisphere. I was down in Argentina last year for business, and every soccer fan I talked to there said its inevitable that MLS passes Argentina. It was huge news there that it was MLS that bought Pity Martinez and Ezeqiel Barco. MLS is hoovering up young Argentines and Uruguayans and Colombians at a pretty remarkable rate. Josef Martinez and Miguel Almiron on Diego Rossi types of players are going to MLS. Not back to South America. Mexicans like Carlos Vela and Marco Fabian are playing in MLS; not Mexico. FCD went down and bought the U23 player of the year in the Chilean league and it didn't even register as news here. The best young Chilean player can't seem to get on the field for FC Dallas (Aranguiz). We don't really view it that way ourselves, but its happening. We are one of the most powerful forces in the Western Hemisphere.

    And at the SAME TIME as we're hoovering up young talent in this hemisphere, we're also starting to develop our own talent. We've made back-to-back-to-back U20 World Cup quarterfinals with a cadre of young talent. We're one of the few nations on earth that made the quarterfinals of the most recent U20 and U17 World Cups. We're investing and investing and investing in the DA to USL to first team pathway. And we have lots of kids moving thru.

    Its weird. I remember Thierry Henry saying that Americans have a colossal inferiority complex when it comes to their league and to this sport. And he said it was so odd, because we don't have inferiority complexes about much. He didn't understand it. I don't either.

    The 11th best league in Europe according to UEFA coefficients is the Austrian Bundesliga. MLS is better than the Austrian Bundesliga. Bank on it. Is it possible that MLS is already approaching a top ten league in the World. Yes. Yes it is actually.

    We have an inferiority complex about the quality of our squads. We have an inferiority complex about the quality of our academies. We have an inferiority complex about the quality of our infrastructure. We have an inferiority complex when it comes to our fan culture. I think that's because we watch a couple of leagues on tv like the Bundesliga, Premier League, and La Liga on tv. But the rest of the world is also behind those leagues.

    I mean, we do realize that MLS was only founded in 1996, right?
     
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  16. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    The irony is that for the individual player, it's actually a great thing, you can get major league pay and not be forced to leave your country if you don't want to. If you grew up in Jersey and could make $2 mil a year staying at home with NYRB, rather than feel forced to go to an English team, and be loaned to a Polish team for a fraction of the salary. It actually makes soccer a more viable sport for professional ambitions here in the states.
     
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  17. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except he isn’t leaving the USMNT until the end of 2019.......
     
  18. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It really depends on the fans, and the team. I’ve been ambivalent about the USMNT and it’s more rabid fans for a while. I certainly don’t see any reason for DC United to change the way it does business in order to accommodate the national team.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #319 DHC1, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    I guess Mexico is approaching being a top 5-6 league if MLS is approaching top 10. That’s great for CONCACAF, if anyone believes that. For me, as I’ve said many times, MLS is about championship/B2 and I don’t think any of them are approaching top ten in the world.

    Is the ambition of the argentine league to be one of the best in the world? South Korea? Japan? What’s quotes do they have from their heads?

    Finally, didn’t you say that there wasn’t as much interest in our MLS players in the major leagues as we think/hope? How does that fit in with our inferiority complex?
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    More money does not equal better league.

    Ask the Emirates, or the Chinese.

    It goes against the capitalist Weltanschauung and trying to explain it to people basically brainwashed into it is probably a waste of time, but here it goes:

    a) The world is not in a Steady State, it's constantly changing, so a guy who was a top player in 2018 may no longer be a top player now, and a guy who was just a cheap teen in 2018 may be already one of the best at his position;

    b) When you got a lot of money without top coaching and no prestige, you get top players only to get them to lose such top status by failing to secure proper opposition: the coaching is sub-par, and the other "top players" brought a year ago have given up and are half-assing it;

    c) Leagues with much less money, like the Colombian or the Moroccan, have plenty of young talent who will get bought by strong teams in a year or two, even though they're already very good players, but their development is a priority, so they are allowed to continue at home while being close watched;

    d) Next year, the "top players" the wealthy league with subpar coaching and no prestige bought will have lost a chunk of their market value, while those young players from much less wealthy leagues will have stepped in to take their place.

    That's why England had to bring top coaching from the continent to finally become the #1 in Europe (and the world). They had the money (and the players, of course) plus the prestige, but lacked the coaching. China is trying to use their money to get the players and coaches, but lacks the prestige.

    It's also a reason why I think the South American and North African leagues are better than MLS, even though they're poor by comparison: the coaching is better, the prestige is better (immensely so in the case of S. America), and while we get expensive players to make their market value stagnate or drop, they get handfuls of kids with a rapidly rising market value.
     
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  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    There may have been....or maybe not. I don't know. My guess is that the negotiations are very business like and cordial but they are still in a business. They have a bottom line just as the players have a bottom line. What you are describing....MLS making Acosta an offer that benefitted Acosta by paying him more but asking for a longer term may have been what happened. Is that so bad? Could Acosta have declined the offer and decided to ply his trade in Europe? Each choice has its advantages and disadvantages.
     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    But it’s a bigsoccer special to say that an agent that advices his players to choose a non-MLS offer (when we don’t even know what the actual offers on the table were it appears) is irresponsible or even worse. SMH.
     
  23. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah because of how MLS operates....

    all these restrictive mechanisms that curb spending belie the financial might of the league.

    It's kinda hard for me as an observer to buy the whole "MLS clubs need to do what it takes to be #1" rationale when the whole structure of the league is basically a pre-meditated super low ceiling on spending, salaries, expenditures etc...and they wanna claim to the player's union that they are "losing money" lol

    If MLS was spending like the EPL (the owners are wealthy enough to easily do so) then it would be very easy as a USMNT fan to accept how US-eligible players are not the priority....but they aren't. THAT would be the scenario where MLS would be helping the USMNT without having to make it a priority.

    If we are going to have to endure sloth-like growth...then we should also be able to have a league that puts the USMNT at or near the top of its priorities, imo.
     
  24. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it is coercive.

    and to what end?

    the guiding principle seems to be limit the freedom of these players at all costs (we certainly aren't seeing an explosion in the development rates of Americans...is it so far-fetched to connect these two things as a possibility?)\

    beyond that....how would MLS suffer if they didn't negotiate like they do?

    I just don't see what they have to lose....

    In a sport like the NFL or NBA...where there isn't a global market of players equal to or better what is available stateside, I can see it. there's no one else out there to replace the Kawhi's and Lebron's....

    But not in soccer. How would Colorado's/MLS' bottom-line suffer if they weren't Machiavellian with Acsosta and his ilk?
     
  25. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #325 adam tash, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    there have been rumors/interest/trials in: zardes, zimmerman, besler, zusi, durkin, arriola, Long, cannon, trapp, dwyer, bradley, altidore, nagbe, mihailovic, cole bassett, sam vines, nick lima, alex bono, Ike Opara, lee nguyen, pomykal, juan agudelo (subsequent rumors after intially having to leave on free transfer), steve birnbaum, george bello, EPB (epically poor mismanagement of his transfer), matt polster (forced to leave on free transfer), perry kitchen (forced to leave on free transfer), bill hamid (forced to leave on free transfer) kekutah manneh (forced to leave on free transfer)khiry shelton (forced to leave on free transfer) andrew gutman (forced to leave via free transfer) christian cappis (forced to leave via free transfer)

    thats just off the top of my head....

    MLS is NOT SELLING! PERIOD.

    if you want out...you better suck it up below market salary for a few years and hope you can stay in-form by the time you are up for parole!

    RE: Long....yeah he;'s an outlier...because MLS teams don't build via USL/college draft anymore....but players like him wouldn't be so rare if they did!

    Geoff Cameron transferred to the EPL when he was 27!

    the real outliers are the ones who MLS allows to leave...miazga, yedlin, adams, etc....the lucky few.
     

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