Well, the Lexington Legends 'A' ball team get games on tv and have a report show too. Prob the exception I concede. Let's keep it to soccer, and as A-League IS covered nationally on FSW (and poss others) minor league is covered. I've even seen PDL on tv. I watched Penn State girls team on Fox Sports, so why not regional sports tv networks like Fox? Keep MLS on ESPN, remember (in this hypothetical scenario) the standard/profile has been raised by this point.
I never said they was, i said that my friends said the overall talent was that level at no time did i ever say that i agreed with them. I even know people who feel that at BEST The MLS is no better then the Belgium 2nd Division ,again i did not say that i agreed with this. I just gave you what i thought they could do in my own words. Andy stop and think for a second do you honestly believe that DC United with its current pay role cap can match up week after week to Man U who have at least 1 player earning 100 million and many others earning from 30 to 90 million just to kick around a ball.The EPL as a whole spends $847 million just on player weekly wages each year ,were as MLS teams spend with the cap as a team the Average of one players wage in the EPL. you can`t say that the MLS can match up week after week under the current salary system that they use. If they opened up like the EPL then yes very quickly they could compete just on the pure income power of the USA . Hornchurch which is an English non league team a 6th division team spends $1.2 million just on player wages this year .
The problem is that they could be on TV. But, the money offered to show the game would be very low. Even if shown, the loss of revenue would be considerable. Also, other than A-League games the other examples were local or regional telecasts. This would certainly not help with income or raising the profile. This will not address the problem with Prom/Rel. At issue is dealing with loss of revenue and value of relegated teams. This isn't practical in a professional arena. I think that the big clubs of Europe are essentially arguing the same thing. BTW, the Promotion/Relegation model WOULD be great in College sports here. The shear numbers of teams make it viable. Plus, most of College Football is regionally telecast anyway. Better, but there would still be problems. See, most schools fund the entire athletics department off of the revenue from Football and Basketball. A loss of revenue could really hurt smaller sports.
You didn't direct this at me, but let me say...No, we couldn't compete on the pure income power alone. There would still have to be fan support. Someone has to make up the demographics for the TV networks to be willing to shell out contract money. I don't think anyone hear thinks that the MLS teams would be out there competing with any of the elite teams of Europe. I think there are teams between Rushden & Diamonds and ManU, though. I think that what we are saying is that the quality is better than you and your friends give it credit for. And it is being done for a fraction of the cost. Primarily, due to a fraction of the fan support. Crticize the fan support, and you'll get some people agreeing. Mention that it would be great to see MLS become the destination for elite players, and you'll have some acceptance. Criticize the fact that the league doesn't respect the international calendar and even the US head coach will agree. But, come to a board like this and say, "I want to like MLS, despite my friends telling me its some 4th rate slacker league who doesn't deserve the energy taken to spit on it." And you are likely to get some push back. Not exactly "How to win friends and influence people", huh? My advice if you want the flaming to stop is to stop quoting in every post that your friends from (Insert European country name here) think that MLS is worse than (Insert high number here) division of the (Insert lowly respected Eurpean footballing country here) . Your posts will probably not illicit the hostility you are now getting. Unless of course, that is your true objective.
Going OT here slightly, but having no promotion/relegation is almost like stopping free trade. I thought America didn't look too kindly on such things? Seems contridictorary to normal capitalist rules? Market-fixing? I know what I;m trying to say but it's not coming out... bah.
This is wrong, or at the least a gross oversimplification. By and large, the best American soccer talent is fairly well split between MLS and several European leagues. This has tilted somewhat over the past year, with Beasley (Holland), Mathis (Germany), Convey, Bocanegra, Howard and McBride (England) going overseas. Even so, the bulk of the best young American players choose to play in MLS initially, and many stay (MLS, to its credit, has done a pretty good job of holding onto these guys). The league loses a few - Conor Casey, Twellman (since returned), Gibbs (since returned), Onyewu - but it captures most - Marshall, Johnson, Buddle, Adu, Martino, Gaven, etc. It remains to be seen what will happen in the future. In my opinion, the salary cap is too low - which hurts retention - and lack of expansion and small roster sizes (with no true developmental squads ... yet) means that there aren't that many roster slots available for all this young talent. Obviously, for many good young players, playing in Europe is a real draw. But personally, I doubt that there will ever be a mass exodus of the best US talent abroad. Okay, ever is a long time, but work permit issues (especially in the UK) and lingering doubts abroad about US talent (unless you're a keeper), combined with MLS's stated interest in keeping US players in the US, will keep the transfer numbers down. Every year MLS will lose some "big names" (not always American, of course), but it'll sign quite a few, too. The real question will be how many of the best players stay here for their entire careers, like Eddie Pope has done. One can argue that MLS is a second tier league and that playing here means that Player X won't develop as far and as quickly as he would have had he gone abroad. Well, there are always exceptions with which one can counter such arguments (arguably the US's best player, Landon Donovan, has developed, for the most part, in MLS), plus, there will come a point when an MLS that has retained the bulk of the new talent that comes into the league every year will find itself with teams stocked with such players; stocked to the extent that their presence raises the overall quality of MLS to such an extent that it isn't 2nd tier any longer. That won't happen tomorrow, but it might in another decade. Two years ago (looking at the national team player pool), I would have argued that MLS-based Americans could have beaten our European-based players more often than not; our best defenders and strikers played, by and large, in MLS. Today, who knows? But I still wouldn't bet against an all-MLS national team side.
Sports in the US are a business. The people who own and operate the teams are mostly interested in making money. Creating a monopoly is a perfectly acceptable capitalist way of making money.
The idea that pro/rel is some quaint outdated system and is on the way out in Europe is a US-centric fantasy. While it is quite likely changes will be made to make it much harder for the biggest teams to fail to qualify for Europe, pro/rel in the domestic leagues isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. Can you imagine the Premiership telling Wolves or Sheffield Wednesday that they will never play in the top division, it's not going to happen. Europe is not the US - Watch an hour of Sky Sports News and see how much time is given to the lower leagues, then watch an hour of Sportscenter, they wont so much as give the scores of minor league baseball.
Segroves: (Better?) Okay, there IS NO MLS2 - I never said there was. We were talking about one future potential avenue that MLS could go down. Stop repeating yourself and learn to think out side of the box a little. China actually has more than 4x the population of the USA, but that's not the point. It's not an overtly wealthy nation - you try feeding 1.3 billion mouths under a communist regime. But there's at least 3 Chinese intnerationals in the EPL, and Qu Bo would have joined Spurs, but for WP problems. A-League teams aren't necessarily the answer to MLS expansion, hence why (in the hypothetical/fantasy suggestion) we said use the J-League model to qualify teams. Seattle, Rochester, Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, Portland and perhaps even Minnesota could be viable MLS markets under the right conditions. Balloon payments exist, what's your problem with that? Some traditions are good business practice. Time for you to back your statements up with facts. NCAA sports have a ready made market in current and alumni students. Their draw is based laregly of varsity loyalty/pride than the sport in question. That's a great position to be in but frankly isn't applicable to soccer, unfortunately. Personally, I don't see the charm in watching a load of amateurs play a game that I can watch the professionals play, but I do anyway because I like to take in an interest in the community within which I live. (and I appreciate grass roots in any sport). Personally, I think most adults should get over the fact that they're no longer in college (how ever great it was), remove the college licence plates and get on with their lives. College sports should always be secondary to pro sports, else what is the point - even what is the point for the athlete? Working around the MNT schedule does not mean playinging games in December. (and what would be wrong with that anyways, scared of a bit of cold?) Games could be extended at the front end, or much more practically, you could implement more midweek fixtures. Or reduce the ridiculous amount of international games that you play in the first place? As for salary caps, the MLS cap and NFL cap bear no resemblance to each other. As I mentioned, your entire team cap would get you one good player playing at the top level. As for keeping youngsters in the US...we'll you're goig to have to give them a hell of a raise on their current salaries to dream of doing that. Else, the MLS will be - at best- a developmental league. Somehow I don't see that notion sitting well with the planets only self-annointed Super Power. You'll have seen these before I'm sure, but seeing you insist I back myself up: Ralph, Damani $25,200 Dempsey, Clint $30,000 Eskandarian, Alecko $60,000 Arnaud, Davy $25,200 Magee, Mike $25,200 Gaven, Eddie $55,000 Pierce, Rusty $46,856.25 Noonan, Pat $39,375 Ching, Brian $32,550 (but has at least got a new deal) There are plenty of higher end MLS players earning well under $100k a year. That's a joke amount of money. We all know why NASL failed, they didn't balance the books. We don;t need to go into that. But MLS is like the polar opposite, it will never be anything until it invests more in salaries etc... UK obesity is 19%, overweight is 39% - in the USA you have 59 million obese (thats our entire population) and 65% of the population are overweight. http://www.defeatdiabetes.org/Articles/obesity030210.htm How can you ask me for facts on the inability for a minor league team to grow? If there's no promotion or relegation then there can be no evolution, just status quo. What's your point about Siena again? You don't think international powerhouses like Juventus and the Milan sides don't provide enough competition in the Serie A? My point is that every market should be allowed to go it's course. Siena, like most small clubs at higher levels, evolved over decades, a small step at a time. No asking for $25m up front. It's shouldn't be a money game...everyone should be able to have their shot. A bnit like the FA or ever Lamarr Hunt US Open Cup. Obviously MLS is relegation proof - and that's what I want to change. I was stating there's no relegation proof teams anywhere else. "I can't for the life of me understand why Americans ignore their local league to watch a bunch of overpaid, coke snorting, chainsmoking, longhaired, one-named, diving primadonnas with bad teeth run around like a bunch of clowns and play for draws. " - perhaps because they have god given talent and are the elite players in the game? Divers are everywhere in every league. *cough-Ruiz-cough*, who happens to be one of the top guys in the MLS. as for long hair? Well the US is the home and birthplace of the f.ugly mullett. And teeth here in KY have got the UK beat hands down. The reason no MLS players are on coke is cos they're not paid enough ********ing money. "I don't like ManU or Chelsea either" - your point? I don't but that doesn't mean they're not quality teams filled with world class players. That's like saying the yankees are crap - of course they're not - but we all still hate them too. Adu could have signed anywhere he liked at 16. Glazer is a twat. End of discussion.
But it has nothing to do with whether or not they're good soccer players. Just because some 4th division English team has a salary budget of $1.2M doesn't make it nearly on par with MLS teams. Apparently we do need to go into it. Considering the NASL failed miserably and the MLS is becoming more successful every year - with only the best NASL attendance year being higher than the worst MLS attendance year - I'll take polar opposites. As to MLS "never being anything" - to who? We've got World Cup heros in the prime of their careers - we got teams that have never lost a friendly to EPL clubs - we got growing crowds and exciting play. Either you like it or you don't. I'm still waiting to hear what about "relegation" makes a league "better". Manchester United isn't relegation proof? How about Inter-Milan or AC Milan? Juventus? Real Madrid? Bayern Munich? Glasgow Celtic and Rangers? Under what circumstance are ANY of these teams EVER going to be relegated? "Could have" - you're experience tense problems.
Not the best choice. Dynamo Kiev are from the Ukraine. The Ukraine is not part of the EU. Brazil is also not part of the EU. Russia is not part of the EU. Latvia is part of the EU, so well done there, even if EU employment laws don't apply in the Ukraine.
And Reading have one of the weakest squads based on what criteria exactly? The everyday moron premiership fan's "Leeds/Sunderland/West Ham get 30,000 a week so they must be better than a team getting 15,000 a week" guidebook perhaps?
and who is this Man Utd player being paid £2 million per week? I think you should get a dictionary and notice the subtle difference between the words "week" and "year". Has it also not occurred to you that the world is not an even market, and that players in each country get paid the going rate for that country? There are loads of "Championship" players in England on £5000-10000 a week who'd never earn that in any other country. It wouldn't surprise me if the basic wage of many of the Panathinaikos players who held Arsenal to a draw on Wednesday aren't on any more than MLS players. The Greek League is not awash with money.
1 Partick, and they were replaced by a club that a few years ago was playing 3rd division football as a new club. He is right though. I've read many times on these boards the view that Europe is slowly heading towards the American model. I've never heard that once over here though. The big clubs don't give a toss about relegation as they don't believe it will happen to them. The middling clubs would hardly push for it to happen, as they'd have no idea which side of the fence they'd fall. More importantly, it isn't being discussed at all.
They are owned by a rich idiot an an ego trip who is bankrolling the club. They only get about 750 fans a week. The typical wage bill, for the whole squad, for that division, is more like £80,000 a year, if that.
Segroves is right. I'm not sure he's the most tactful speaker (typer), but he is right. Talking about whether or not relegation should happen when we are discussing a league owned by, what 4 guys(?), adding 2 next year is a bit premature. I think the only thing MLS needs to worry about is getting people into seats hopefully in SSS owned by the teams. I think MLS realizes it needs to expand its footprint in the US. But, the problem is that there are no people clamoring to become owners. The investment is too unsure for the average US investor. Rich people don't really like becoming poor people. Losing $15 million per year is not a really enticing sales figure. Salt Lake City was not at the top of any expansion list. But, MLS will be there because some guy with a large bank account plopped his big check down in front of the league brass and said, "I think I can make it work." Same with second LA team. I bet that MLS didn't really want to expand into LA, being that they already had a presence there. But, again, a rich guy said, here's my money and I want my team in LA. It was done. MLS has said that they want to expand again next year. That will only happen if 2 new investors do what the 2 did this year. Again, the problem that people have with these kinds of attacks on the league is that most of us think MLS beats the hell out of the league we were watching in the early 90s. Does it have its problems? You bet. But, none of the other problems (player salaries, International calendar, promotion/relegation, etc) really matter. And, they shouldn't. The goal of these current investors is to make MLS successful. They want to stop losing money. When they can accomplish this, they will look at expansion. When they expand they will start looking at some of the other issues. But, changing rules that may hurt the league financially at this point doesn't seem to be a very good idea seeing that if it wasn't for some very deep pockets and some people who don't seem to mind those pockets being picked year after year, there wouldn't need to be a section on BigSoocer.com about MLS: It wouldn't exist. Watch the league, don't watch the league. It doesn't matter. If you don't think it is worth watching fine. Don't. I don't care. But, stop telling everyone who'll listen how much it sucks. The media in this country and every other WANT MLS to fail. The media in this country doesn't like it. Other countries don't want the US to become a soccer nation. It is really easy to understand why. But, shut up and go watch what you want and let those of us who appreciate there being something to watch, that we can actually relate to, watch it. I don't care if you think DC United couldn't beat a fourth division Lichtenstein team. It still is better than MISL. Leave it alone. If it grows, I'll eventually get a team near me. Oh, and by the way. Being from the southern United States, let me tell you something about College Sports. You see, College Football is bigger here than NFL football will ever be. There's plenty of reasons but the biggest is that the NFL ignored the South for years. It wasn't until the AFL was formed that there was any professional sports worth mentioning down here. Georgia will always outdraw the Falcons. Same with Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, even Texas. Another reason, is that there is a lot more intrigue watching the guy playing for reasons other than his contract. Yeah, some of them have pro aspirations, but they are still only aspirations. They give it their all. Of course, this is also why MLS is reluctant to expand here. The competition for the fans of these States has taken years to develop even for the Big 4 pro sports. In a place like Georgia, College Football is #1, followed distantly by probably MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL. That doesn't even count NASCAR. That is a lot of people who have their money already going into other coffers. Soccer will be hard to catch on. Especially since our Nationalized, green-card holders, Visa working, or Illegal Immigrants who actully like the sport won't spend a nickel in its development here. Oh well, we don't need them and we don't want them.
Oh, Oh, Mr Kotter, Mr Kotter, the answer is one. For the past couple of years it was none because no one fit the stadium requirements. But this year it is one. Die thread, Die thread
I can't believe I read the whole thing... I've had enough cheese for one day... I think (being Irish) I'll have a beer now... And maybe some random stranger punching in the evening... If you really want more information in answer to your purported original question, you may want to read this article. If not, then you are a snivelling bitch. Translated: Welcome to BigSoccer.
1.hornchurch was made in terms of the MLS spening and how that spening can be done by any team and a they still not be on the top level. Meaning that the MLS spending is very low. 2.i know very well that wages are paid by the week , sill if they are paid every day at the end of the year that player would still earn the $100 million a year that his contract was signed for. Week, day or year the point was that there is still being out spent on a competitive level. 3. My kieve point was the amount of Internationals on the field , i know they are from Ukraine and not a member of the EU. The EU was about something else and was related to some other people that i had said before. 4.why did i use India and China well if you go back to the early pages it was asked to me how a Nation like The usa that has 4x`s the people then England could handle 2 divisions Up and Down . Well China and India have 1 billion people and does this very thing like the rest of the world. It was never about talent . it was about they are bigger then the USA and they found a way to do it so could the USA. 5.Beating teams in july when training has just started 4 them means nothing as the NFL proves every year when the season starts its different results. 6. My NBA was not about the talent it was about systems. The Nba has one way of doing things the world another. the Nba system did not prove they were better for those games only. Just as Saying that the MLS way is better then the worlds way or the worlds way 7. The mls 2 thing it was part of a question asked to me see point #4 it was the same question i used it in an example with the Japanese J-league which is only 4 yrs older then the MLS of what SOMEDAY(50 yrs 100 yrs a billion yrs i gave no date) could be the MLS it was just an example only. just like telling your kid 2 +2 =4 when teaching him how to add its just an example. 8.it was said that the MLS is doing well and growing. Lets see 1 game a week in non MLS markets who do not pay for the MLS package,Looseing $300million and about to have its second run at having just 12 teams, and to get one of those you needed the Mexican league Chivas to help you. Reached the point of nameing teams after European teams just so people may notice you even have a league. 9. The mls draws well great and im happy Napoli in italy is a 3rd Division team and drew 70,000 last sunday. Brazil has crowds of 100,000 for its top teams. Texas high School football games draw 25,000 for top teams. whats your point Its drawing but it still can barely support 10 teams and didn`t support 12 the first time. 10.The SPL Has only 12 teams,lol MLS Has 10 and Kosovo has 8 , and your point of making fun of the SPL was what its bigger then the MLS . 11.How many teams went down in Scotland 1, and Inverness came up and was a 3rd division team a few years ago and we would have not had that chance if it had not been for Promotion n Relegation . That outdated system as you call it gave us a chance to reach our dreams to play at the top level and earn a place in Euro cups . We did not have to buy our way in like RSL we earned our way in .So promotion n Relegation was good for us. But Charleston and Vancouver and the other a-Leagueers will never get to have that chance of earning the right to join the MLS . 12. We like how our leagues are done and you like the way yours is , great no point in fighting that out. 13.the only thing that has been enjoyable about this board is watching all the Americans start to act like 12 yr olds when you even hint at trying something different. Do you fear the world and our tradions of 100`s of years of playing Football not Soccer, that the even the words you could someday try this way if you become strong enough as a league. 14.Just by calling the sport soccer and not Football proves the point that the entire world has known since the start of the USA .it is not about if or should the MLS have promtion n relegation it could if it wanted to .But the USA will never do that because as all of the world knows and you wont admit to is this If we (The USA) have to play a sport then we will do it our way or not at all.
Is this BigSucker.com? If you don't have anything to say, don't say it as yourself. Are you one of those people that just talk because silence is uncomfortable? Shut up. If you're not hearing what you want to hear, don't pretend you didn't hear it. I can't imagine why you'd bother to drag it out any longer than the original joke. Although the username is rather appropriate. In the highly unlikely event that you are a genuine newbie, take solace in the fact that you will be the first one I've told to get lost. Try Uncle Jimmy's special Kool-Aid mix, that bitter taste will go away soon...and remember to slap whatever retarded deity you follow...
Now you have problems with peoples names, man your all childish and u know what u are right about one thing, I am so tired of all of this there is no way to ever have a normal talk with any of you with out it leading to insults if we don’t agree to 100% to the MLS holy grail. For the first 2 pages of this thread it was fun to have this exchange to a point and just took at newbie welcoming but now its 8 pages and just plain dull and boring and just not worth the time to be a member anymore. I choose your group to have endless nights of bashing cycles, but to learn and enjoy talking with soccer people. For those of you who answered my questions in private messages and respected them, you gave name some things to take and asked my friends in other media fields that would know better then me. Thank you and if every one were as open to differing opinions as you were in your private messages to me , I would have stayed with this group. Nevertheless, as I said eight pages of childish ranting is just not something that I want to be a part of everyday as a member of this group its just old and boring at this point.