MLS does NOT need to spend money to promote the sport in Boise, Idaho or Memphis, Tennessee. It needs to spend the time, money, and effort promoting the sport in places like Dallas, Texas and San Jose, California. I wish there was better coverage here in Atlanta, but there isn't. So, I have the MLS Shootout Package on DirectTV and I watch (bear?) MLS Wrap every week. You can watch more than you want if you try. I agree that Promotion/Relegation will probably never work here. What you and your friends don't seem to understand is the economics of the whole thing. Even once we get 18 teams and start looking into more, it will be a tough sell to go in and say, "Thank you for being members of the original 18 teams of MLS. We've done a marvelous job at growing the sport here and we're all starting to make some money. That being said, starting next year 3 teams will go down to the A-league who has TV contracts worth 1/10 of ours, so your revenue will be greatly influenced." No, don't count on Pro/Rel any time soon. They may find a way to do it, but it won't be as easy as saying the first 12 are Div 1, the rest are div 2. I think that this type of financial crunch is wreaking havoc in Europe, too. The biggest clubs are able to survive, but below them are teams who can't or won't spend the money to attract more better players because IF they are relegated the club would never survive. Leeds, for example, is in a death spiral...they may or may not make it. I am willing to bet that your English friends have never even seen an MLS game. How can they possibly judge what the level of play is? I also have friends from European Footballing countries and they seem to think that while not elite, they are a decent quality. Can we compete with England, Italy, Germany, and Spain? Probably not. Who can? But, if they had our salary levels, how good would they be? I think we are at least level with Scotland. Any of our teams could come in at least third behind Celtic and Rangers. They might even surprise those two. Until we are pulling the World Stars that the top leagues in the world are pulling we will never be one of them. But, if we can continue to tap into the American youth soccer players, we can continue to grow. With (smart) growth will come more money. With more income will come more spending. When that happens, if that happens, the US league will compete. Being from Atlanta, it is very difficult to be a fan of Soccer in the USA. But, I do pretty well thanks to the internet, Fox Sports World, and the MLS Shootout!
I think you mis understood the A-league part, I never said that teams are relegated to the A-league. This is what i said . there would be 2 levels of the MLS like the J-league in Japan . the A-league team who wanted to join the second level of the MLS would have to form a plan that in 3 yrs after asking to join would meet the standard of the rest of the MLS. The MLS would stay the top level just with 2 divisions and all teams would be members of the MLS as a whole. The A-league thing was just to give owners who wished to move up the opening to do so and nothing more. No MLS team would ever leave the MLS System. Its like in Holland they have 2 Divisions and those 2 move teams up and down between them but no one ever leaves the league. Holland lower level teams can ask to join if you meet their league set up rules. This was what i was trying to say. But i still think the league would grow if they made better promotion for it to the nation as a whole. Going back to the game in Nashville , i was talking about how it drew on little promotion , not saying Nashville needed a team Its all that we can do to handle what we have. I was useing it in a media thing If you could promote a game or 2 outside of the main markets it would bring in new fans ,like me as i have no team to root for right now or players to follow .
Why did you mention "promotion/relegation" if there is no "relegation" - and how is that really that much different than "expansion"?
msmallwood, welcome to BigSoccer. Glad you are interested in MLS. Now you need to do what many MLS fans have done or thought about doing: attend a game. You've got one only 7 hours away by car on October 31in Columbus, OH. Should be a good one with many players who will be on the WC2006 USMNT team fighting it out. What better way to learn American culture then to take a road trip to a game. Then next year pay for DirectKick and watch 5 games every Saturday.
Well, how do you think people in North Dakota feel? Or Idaho? Or Anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line, for that matter? Of course we all agree that MLS can do a little better with its national marketing. But as everyone else said, exhibitions are not always an answer, because it gives people hope that an MLS team will arrive shortly even if there's no I/O or valid reason why a team should be there (Cleveland, for example). And given the fact that both of Florida's teams were contracted due to poor management and attendance woes, the league is going to be extremely cautious when venturing into the south (which is why it looks like Atlanta is gonna stay A-League for a while). Besides, as someone pointed out earlier (Andy Mead, I think), there are lots of ways for people to find out about the league, especially now that MLSnet.com is vastly improved. But in the end, it doesn't matter what MLS does to promote itself - if your paper doesn't print any soccer stuff, it's not any fault of the MLS marketing dept. If you really feel that soccer deserves some increased exposure in your neck of the woods, speak up in your area (the lack of TV coverage/media exposure/unbiased reporters, like the pro/rel topic, has been an overdone topic around these boards) - see if you can find a community of soccer fans like yourself, and maybe the league will start to pay attention to that area. As far as pro/rel goes, I think murtaugh and Andy explained it quite nicely. The system doesn't work here... the last thing a fledgling league needs is uncertain revenue streams. Even a two-division system, although it works in Japan and Holland, seems a bit unsavory to many MLS fans (especially up in NER country). In any sport, a losing franchise does poorly financially - look at the Arizona Cardinals... I think they've had one winning season in 20 years, and their attendance is awful. If you think that a team with weak attendance as it is would draw as many fans if it got dropped to the "You Suck" division, then you might want to get out of the house more often. And I was just screwing around with you earlier because you're a newbie who brought up an old flame-worthy topic. But if your friends have never seen an MLS game yet still criticize it, then I stick with my previous assessment of them.
Before everyone starts a new round of bashing me and how I look at things, Just so every body knows before it starts yes am 1/2 English and 1/2 Irish by my parents but I was born in America and lived most life here. I have played sports here , and Covered Japanese Baseball and American sports in the Press ,so I am not as big of an idiot as you think I am about American Sports, my Dad was a coach, and I grew up in a American style sports family , have relatives who work in big time sports . Just because some one has a different heritage then some one else does not mean that they are an idiot to American style sports Biz. So just before you decide to start bashing me again, it is not needed I do understand our sports system very well. and all the bad comments that where said about the MLS , I said that my friends felt that way ,I never once said that I felt that way . I cannot defend this league to them if i do not see much of it . Hopefully through all of you i can learn the league better to counter those remarks by my friends and i will get the MLS Package. Yes it is true that i do not live and die MLS as you all do,However I do respect what they are trying to acomplish and hope they make it.I would like to see the USA become masters of this sport oneday and The MLS be on talk radio like all other sports here and not looked down on by the media .
I honestly don`t know if they have or not watched very much of the league. They are first and Foremost English and Scottish and Euro league fans . So we talk more about those then MLS . Its only when I tell them about the new team names does it start, and then its do they (team owners ) realise that there is a history to why Spainish teams are Named Real so and so and by just nameing your self Real so and So and adopting the Spainish colors does not mean any thing to the rest of the world. For Example when I told them about RSL THey said you have to be kidding me , this is a joke right and then its a speach on how this is title that was earned by thoses clubs and so on and i mostly tune them out and watch baseball. I think it goes back to the entire league as a whole, cuz it has nicknames and does not meet the (World style) and we have the drafts and stuff. They don`t understand the system ,because teams are not formed the same way there as here. It would be like us trying to learn cricket . I think its more Tongue n Cheek to get a rise out of everybody and see if they act like a tosser . We have these same go arounds over baseball. They are more interested in how it works I think, so not knowing the system it is easy for them to rag on the MLS and on me for even thinking about supporting it. I do think they respect the players and their talents , its the system they have a hard time with drafts and stuff. Id like to see us have more Transfers. I watched Dinamo Kiev yesterday and their stating 11 had 5 brazilians, Latvian and the rest from Russia and Ukraine .I think that this is where we have match up problems .I don`t think its the talent of the league , but more so roster make up. Its easy for them to talk down the talent level of the MLS when their leagues look at all EU members being from one Nation , you can`t compare to that unless we would consider all American nations as simply America and stock our Rosters as they being one Nation. So I think that this is more so why my friends rag on the league more then anything else, call it nit picking for the sake of nit picking . This is just my experience but you may have had others who may have a deep hate for the MLS and i respect the feelings that you have all created from that and don`t blame you at all . In fact i respect the fact that you all feel so strong as you do about your league of choice.
Ugh. 1. MLS had an average of 14K or so this year. The attendance is pretty steady. If people are staying away because of ********int nicknames and where players grew up, they'll find some other assinine reason to not come back. b. The Metros played Sunday with a Honduran, an Argentinian, a Bolivian, a Jamaican and a Costa Rican. They had a Trinidadian on the bench. DC United played a Ukranian, a New Zelander, a Bolivian, a guy who spent a dozen years playing in Holland and a St. Vicent and Grenadine international. They had a Salvadoran on the bench. This doesn't even count Freddy Adu or the close to 10 players who have played for the U.S. National Team. Tell your friends to stop being such whiny glory hunters and be fans of the sport. As to complaining about how you get treated, maybe if you didn't defend such lazy arguments, people would be kinder. But the nationalities of players, the nicknames and pro/rel are so 1997.
As for the TV broadcasts, there is a point here. Nobody here grew up with pay-per-view sports, and then became a fan. I think a few of the comments here focus on the "it's there if you look for it" point of view, at the expense of the "part of my childhood experience" angle. Any comparisons to the other main sports fail because of the history of the American sports landscape. Around 125 years ago, every town (it seems) had a baseball and a football team, there was no TV and players were likely local jocks. They were there at the foundation of the modern media. When cable came around is (in my opinion) where sports teams were really able to expand their geographic reach. Here I am influenced by the circumstances of my upbringing. Growing up in Birmingham, Alabama, I saw the Braves play all the time courtesy of Ted Turner's WTBS being broadcast (I think) everywhere. The Chicago Cubs were also being broadcast nationally. By buddy from Arkansas is a huge Cardinals fan. None of this is because, pay-per-view packages were available to us as children. They weren't. The league is young. We seem to be in the 125 years ago stage of soccer in fully developed media world. I don't pretend to have the answers. The teams don't own tv stations but there does seem to be a place or two where the profile of the sport could be raised a little beyond the MLS cities. One example is the Freddy commercials. I only see them when I'm already watching soccer. I did happen to see one on Nickelodeon or the Cartoon Network as I was flipping channels and I was glad to see it. Maybe MLS could cut a deal with the sponsors of those commercials to have them aired in more markets and during other sports. That might provide a hook put MLS talent in front of more eyes. Maybe (and I'm just brain-storming, here) a Saturday morning game instead of children's reality tv on ABC with more of a kid-friendly focus. But all the kids who care are probably at their own soccer games at that time. MLS is definately there for people who want to go out of their way to see it. But you don't have to be extremely "willful" in order to avoid it. Conversely, baseball/football are pretty hard to avoid no matter how hard you try. Thanks for your patience with the ramble.
But the fact remains is that there is an MLS game on espn2 every week during the summer. For those who live in an MLS market they generally get an additional MLS game on local TV via an over-the-air local channel or their Regional Sports Network - often with multiple replays. Those with FSW on the cable, get a third game with multiple replays. The standard "cable/DBS" family gets roughly half of ALL MLS GAMES pumped into their house - with no Pay Per View - and with replays through the week. MLS games are readily available to the average channel surfer. It's pretty much impossible to ask for anything more.
Msmallwood et al.... Having read through this entire thread I have to say I'm largely in your (mssmallwood's )camp. Too many of the regulars have either not replied directly to what you've said, misconstrued it or simply be factually inaccurate in their responses. I guess I'll need some examples or I'll be flamed: 1. I've watched enough MLS to know that it is equivalent to a third tier (perhaps 2nd in some) in most major World leagues. 2. Winning friendlies is indicative of absolutely nothing. Pick a team, any team, in any nation and check out their pre-season (not match fit, unfamiliar squads etc..) results and see how much weight can be placed on them. Spurs didn't any of their pre-season games this year then burst out of the gates in the EPL with 6 undefeated. They were losing to like 2nd division scandinavian clubs. They mean nothing - like any exhibition in any sport. 3. Re China/India - okay India is pretty damned poor...but there ARE several Chinese NT players playing at the highest level (I'm talking to you Mike Seagrove). Everton have a couple Li Tie and someone else, Man City have Sun Jihai and there's more. So don't so easily discredit that nation. Remeber the financial muscle that the US has to develop players AND the league and that factor cannot be ignored. Don't forget the privilledged upbring the average american has. 4. He said more kids PLAY soccer than Am. FOOTBALL. He wasn't talking about the exhibition game as a basis. He's saying their is a soccer market. It's the same here in Kentucky, soccer is a huge participation sport...you just need to move that to the next level. 5. Media. The media coverage/pr/marketing is required to raise the profile of the game nationally. I concede the focus should be mainly on existing MLS markets and prospective markets, but to get national credibility it has to have national presence. 6. He did not say relegate to the A League. He said pre-qualify A League teams to join the MLS (more MLS2) like the J-League does. The relegation he referred to was from MLS > MLS 2. That was so obvious. Those letters were bollocks. Get real. 7. If expansion was widened, and more teams were taken on, the need to charge $10m would sibside. I think there still needs to be well qualified (financially and oganizationally) people in place to come in but how many $10m checks does the league need to collect? Maybe that's what's scaring the prospective owners away in the first place? 8. Stadium sharing in the UK to get around stadium requirements - really doesn't happen. There was an isolated incedent in Scotland this season re: Inverness, but that's the exception not the rule. Most leagues block entry if you're not qualified, it would just require MLS doing the same. 9. If the league had a wider reach - i/e into a total of 30 markets, or 32 markets as was suggested - then perhaps the league wouldn't be loss making? Maybe it would get a decent national contract (soccer contracts are worth about $20m to each EPL club in the UK), it's not long removed since MLS had to PAY to have tables published in USA Today. But noone is going to clammer over such a small nitch market/sport - that's why it has to be expanded. 10. Losing an LA side or the Metros could also coincide with the promotion of another local team from the market. Having more than one team in a market (like LA and Chivas) can help keep a top level presence - and think of the rivalries it brings too. It can work and also long as they're playing then 'fans' will attend. 11. Budget problems - sure, being relegated would have financial implications, but MLS rosters turnover enough players to have them work around it. Why not an EPL-esque 'balloon payment' to help with the transition. It works everywhere else in the world. 12. Have's & Have nots - MLS actually has a unique opportunity to make promotion & rel work better than elsewhere, not abolish it. It's not disrespecting US soccer landscape just because people are looking for something that exists elsewhere. Prom/Rel has never existed in US sports, and baseball has been around for a long time too. It's more the franchise vs club issue than anything else. 13. Quit calling people who aren't from the US/who appreciate footballing traditions and other leagues 'eurosnobs' etc. Its not constructive and seems to be thrown around as your answer for too many things rather than assessing ideas on individual merit. Stop being so defensive - you're the ignorant ones not willing to look at the rest of the world. 'Maybe your friends are idiots' - really constructive, well done. 14. ESPN has not been carrying games of late. FSW and HDNet (as well as Direct Kick), so basically there is no free/basic cable option here on coverage. FSW is normally included in a premium/sports package and HD channels are yet more expense. For the record, every EPL game is carried on SKY Sports in the UK, but they're far from free. One game a week is not enough to get into any sport, if you are familiar with a team then you start to follow it...then down the line you become a fan. Personally, I'm in a bit of a bind, there's no team particularly near me (Crew), so I watch the league as a whole. Personally, I'm intrigued by its intracacies and nuances (the draft, discovery players, P40, SI/TI's etc....) but there are so many flaws that detract from the league as a whole (like MNT conflicts, am football markings and huge empty stadiums). One game a week didn't make me a fan - 25 years of watching it in Scotland and England did, live and immersing myself with the GAME as a whole. I have regualrly watched those two plus Italian, Spanish and French Leagues, and occassionally now I watch the German league too. The south american broadcasts on FSW are usually so bad I can't watch them (eurosnob I'm not, HD snob I'll accept). At the current level it is hard to hook someone new on the sport from the existing coverage. 15. You don't need to have watched 136 of 138 games to form an opinion. And watching that many games doesn't make you right. It entitles you to your own opinion. Yes, research does help one have an informed opinion, but that's not always the way it's presented. Maybe spending less time watching MLS and more watching games from around the world would open your eyes to the true standard of the MLS games? I want the MLS to be success as much as anyone, after all I live here now, but being blind to the facts helps no one. 16. Mike Seagroves - so MLB, 'America's national passtime', is not in your big 4 of US sports? Well you've just blown your credibility out of the water.... 17. Attendances could afford to drop nearer the bottom of expansion (MLS2), tv revenue, corporate sponsers would increase if national coverage/exposure increased. 18. Frodo as GM of Baggins Utd - PLEEEEEEAAAAASE?! 19. Salary cap is a hinderance, not an asset. It suffocates the growth and expansion and maintains the status quo. Ok, so there has been (arguably) moderate improvements on the field, but personally I feel that the import quality has dropped dramatically and the better US players are leaving en masse to be replaced by kids or ancient returning players (Earnie Stewart anyone?) or those that couldn't make it elsewhere (see Jovan Kirovski). What ever happened to 'you've got to speculate to accumulate' ? - I'm not saying throw all caution to the wind, a'la NASL, just stop choking the league. Drop the expansion fee etc.... 20. Seagroves WTF were you rambling on about with Mars. That's a useless analogy. There are plenty here who may not yet have developed a culture of watching soccer - but they do particpate and there is a generation or two coming through where this has been the norm. The sports landscape is changing. Also - there's enough immigrants (european, latino etc..) to form a base in most cities. I desparately crave football here in KY, I can't even go to a pub anywhere in this city to watch a game (from any league or any competition). And it sucks. The key is to present an opportunity, not every market will work but quality of life is enhanced by having options..... And almost every market can sustain any sport (or product) - it's simply a matter of finding the level. 21. And though I concede that 23k turning up to an exhibition or NT game is not guarantee of the viability of a market it is an indicator and worth following up on. I say again what I've mentioned before - the Champions World Series in the US (or whatever it was called) showed that football/soccer fans will turn up in their 10's of thousands to watch a quality product. NASL attendances showed us the same. The trick is to balance having something marketable with an ability to balance the books, but it still comes back to what I said about speculate to accumulate... or the MLS can keep the league low key and continue to think/act like a 3rd Division outfit. 22. Seagroves (you seem to have been especially ignorant in this thread, well done *that condescending enough for ya?*) - he wasn't attacking your heritage, so "if I attacked your heritage I would have made potato jokes and comments about the quality of english dentistry." was hardly an appropriate resonse. I could counter with American's are ignorant gun toting wankers on a mission to morbid obesity. English dentistry? The difference is that in britian teeth are kept healthy and functional (not superficial, nor artificailly whitened or straightened)...why are American's so interested in UK teeth, why don't the forget about their teeth and focus on the alarming proprtion of their population that is obese? Teeth dont kill people, mordbid obesity does. I think someone needs to get their priorities straight. 23. He was also talking hypothetically, of course he doesn't have a load of owners lined up. He was proposing a philospohical change in the way MLS is run/constructed in order to help attract new ownership. 24. I don't care what Americans say about disliking relegation, it keeps it interesting till the last. Sure it can be depressing, but there's always next year (nothing like winning a promotion and bouncing striaght back up to raise spirits and get a town behind a team again). Consider (in the larger US sports anyways) how many teams have never achieved anything. No Titles, no pennants, or no playoffs even. That's why franchises move - they go stale because so few can achieve in any given year fans lose interest. That's why minor league sports fold or move - because, even if they're successful at their level, they can never become anything more. There are teams in Spain and Italy (Siena and Valladolid I think) who get more fans than their town's population on match games and have become viable even at the highest level of their national leagues. This is the dream that EVERY sports fan outside of the US has. Why must the US reject 'tradition', it's just being bloody minded. 'We want to be different because we're the USA'. I don't get it and Ive lived here long enough that if there was even a shred of credible reasoning behind it I might have - is it just arrogance or plain stupidity? Oh and there's no 'relegation proof' teams, that's the beauty of it. There's an expression in football 'nobody is too good to go down'. Every major club in England has been relegated at some point (aside from Southamption I think). 25. If American's will not watch a team that is not in the top division then what does that say about your fan culture? Again, in football there's a chant 'you're only singing when you're winning'. Not that US fans sing much, but the principle is the same. Your a nation of fairweather supporters if you turn your back on a club and sport you love just cos you got relegated. If that's the case then maybe soccer doesn't have a place in the US after all. 26. I've said it before, but if you pay entire team the equivalent salary of 1 top player you're not going to compete with top teams week-in, week-out. It's like small clubs can upset big clubs in cup competitions, it's doesn't mean they're better. Look at baseball. The same two teams can play each other 20 times in a season and despite the fact that one may be clearly better than the other, the series will NEVER show to be 20-0, more likely 13-7 or something as upsets DO HAPPEN. No MLS team would 'surprise' Celtic or Rangers, but they should be about on a par with the rest of that league. What would happen if you put a load of ECHL'ers on an NHL team - they'd suck? Why? Because despite being young and brimming with potential, they're not top pro's (else they'd be in the NHL already). Look what happned with Pittsburgh last season, they essentially played an AHL roster and got *metaphorically* bent over. Cream rises to the top, which is why the better players in MLS are now......not there. It speaks for itself. If they are good enough they've left. And don't quote Adu to me, he's achieved nothing yet, and probably has ultimately hindered his progress by playing at his age and not joining a top academy somewhere else in the world. He did nothing much this year (aside from put bums on seats, there's a lesson in that). 27. In the absence of a single table championship, and for as long as playoffs remain (and I'm not suggesting they should go), the current format of admitting 80 of the teams to the 'post season' is farcical. it removes the urgency from regular season games as you have a 4/5 chance of making the playoffs. Hell, with the current format you can come 9th and still have a fair shot at winning the Title. That's bollocks and will be helped only slightly by 2 new teams. I think I'm done for now. No doubt you're preparing to flame away, concocting 'fact's without basis and ultimately completely missing the point. Enjoy.
Name the countries and leagues. We want examples. Otherwise you're just posturing. DC United = Rushden and Diamonds? Is that what you suggest? More kids bowl than play American football. I forgot, what was the point, again? 20% of the league's schedule appeared on espn2/ABC. The majority of MNT and WNT games also appear on ABC/ESPN/espn2. It doesn't get much more "national presence" than ESPN. What is MLS 2? You're talking a fantasy world. The league contracted two teams only 3 years ago. The league will have only 12 teams next season. We are so far removed from having enough teams for a two level MLS as to be beyond intelligent discussion. This is so patently wrong as to be absurd. The $10M is less for the money than an indication that the folks getting expansion teams are willing and able to pony up the money necessary to play at MLS levels. Ken Horowitz sunk the majority of his $60M fortune into MLS - with no return. Trust me, if folks with $100M in the bank were rushing to join MLS, we'd have a lot more teams than we do today. Saying "widen expansion" and having it be so are two completely different things. "Cheap owners" with no investment in the league will find it easier to bail on the league at the first sign of financial difficulty - remember how well league owned teams worked out before. The league owned Montreal Expos have been a similar disaster for MLB. Stable, successful expansion requires dedicated, stable investors who have made a commitment to the league. And - so what. The Orange County Blue Starr aren't ready for MLS - nor will they ever be. You're getting back to fantasy land. Well the items pretty much veer off into fantasy and personal attacks on Segroves, so I'll let Mike handle the rebuttal of those items. Fans who want to fix things by focussing on single issues - ignoring the economic realities of the American sports market in general and Major League Soccer and the United Soccer Leagues in particular should ask Jesse to form a "Soccer in the U.S. - Fantasy World" subforum. When you're ready to look at the trees AND the forest, come back, we'll be waiting.
It is just semantics to call the relegated lower division MLS2 instead of the A-League. The same problems exist. The TV revenue and attendence suffer. (as they do in lower divisions even in England!! ). Do you really think that ESPN, Fox, or ABC will be clamoring to show the MLS2 matches? You still have to convince owners that they will have a team that they spent x number of dollars for that is now worth x/10, or whatever. That will be one hell of a sales job. I doubt it will happen. I suppose there could be some sort of profit sharing across divisions, but then where is the incentive to spend money to field a winner? Too many questions to call it easy to do. I still disagree with the assessment that MLS is 3rd division or worst level of quality. But, since there is no way of finding out, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do find it interesting that players who couldn't cut it overseas come home and find life just as difficult. I mean, they get more playing time, but they don't really produce more. See Jovan Kiroski, Earnie Stewart, and Joe-Max Moore as examples. If the quality was so far below EPL or Eredivisie, wouldn't they be tearing up the league with there talent and training? I guess Twellman is an exception. But, I think his size, not his talent, hurt him in Germany. Even McBride. He was a hard-working forward who scored some goals, but was hardly dominating games. I think he's doing about the same with Fulham. Convey was playing but his heart had come into question here. In England, he is having difficulty breaking through. What that tells me as that the level of the starters in this league are near Coca-Cola or EPL level, but the depth of the squads is lower. You can interpret it any way you want. Also, as you noted the league must do better to bring out more fans. It is a matter of opinion (one that I happen to agree with you on, BTW) that by expanding markets the fan base even at existing markets will increase. There's no proof of that. In fact, it can be argued that after contraction attendences have increased. But, like I said, I agree with you. I think the league is seen as not permanent. Too small and too weak. I think that when they can expand to 20 or so markets and can have a nice mix of big markets and really strong small markets, the respect for the league among the casual American sports fan will be increased.
I watched socttish Prem/1st Division for 10 years as a staunch St Mirren Supporter. I've Watched Runcorn in the Conference, Oldham, Bury and Spurs on relatively regular live schedules. I've watched Vancouver in the A' League and many different EPL teams over the course of a season. I've also watched countless thousands of games on tv. I was talking competitive field sports. I was establishing a viable soccer base. Yet that still only represents 1 game, of undetermined teams. No consistency and sorry, you can play politics with the numbers all you like, but it's still ONE GAME a week. And ESPN dropped it lately too. I was playing along with his suggestion for a 2 tier league. There's plenty of discussion about the next 6 markets for expansion, I don't think looking long term, and in particular a philosophical change in direction is unreasonable. It's not a matter of having $10m to pony up, its $10m less that they have towards player costs, etc. FFS, that's half of a cheap SSS. I don't want league owned teams, anything but that. Bringing in more teams/ownership groups NOT INVESTORS is my point. Get away from the single entity by removing the elitist qualifying criteria. I'm sure they're not, but what about a NEW team in San Diego or San Frnasisco or any of the other CA markets that were in consideration for the SJ franchise? The point is moot given the fact that LA does already have a team. Perhaps a more appropriate scenario would be to add Rochester and then you have two team in the NY/NJ markets. As for personal attacks on Seagroves I was giving him a bit of what he liked to dish out. I'm British and the nature of his replies was both uniformed and infantile. Bottom line, even in your replies/rebuttle your fantastically missing my point. Or perhaps making it for me.....
okay - so which of these teams are equivalent to MLS? It's your point, not mine. Soccer playing base or soccer watching base. The NFL is the most watched league in the world - even moreso than the EPL. Not a lot of people have played organized American football. Participation and Spectator Interest have never really been corollated. Consistency? It's nearly 20% of the league's schedule. How is that not consistent. The league only plays FIVE GAMES a week. This isn't baseball with 60-70 or the EPL with 10 games per week. MLS only has 10 teams. 1 game per week is huge. As far as the last few weeks, take a look at what's happening in the larger sports world. The fact is, over the course of the summer, there was a persistent presense of MLS on national television in over 90 million homes on a weekly basis. A "cheap" SSS is easily $50-60M not $20M in today's dollars. And anyone that finds the $10M expansion fee hurts their ability to pay players and SSS doesn't have the resources to belong to MLS's ownership club.
The only thing that these 5 pages has proven is . Non Americans have one way of looking at things and American a different. No matter what we say , there will be a counter to a counter. Even if us Non American by heritage can or did post fact after fact to prove our points . The other half would counter with their facts. Its and endless circle if there is no calm and rational talk over these facts on bth sides. Insults on either side proves nothing to back up or support each others facts .It would be easy for me to ask my friends, many who work for the English FA , to join in but it would only spark ww3 and lead us no where. As i said before i respect the views of the MLS loyalists , even if they come off close minded to to those who may have lived some where else , when you throw out our views or facts as being nothing more then the ravings of idiots. Just to give an example of different talents, Ichiro is the best Japanese baseball player to play in America .But the Japanese League as a whole is second Division compared to the MLB .The people in Japan differ on this fact but its a fact, based on me and others covering both leagues in the press as a job. Does this fact make the Japanese Idiots, no just people with Different views. Its the same in Soccer and opinions, which all of this is different views some as recorded facts ,others comes down to just pub talk between drunks on a Saturday night. And for the last time about my MLS views it was a question asked to me of how it could be done . I never gave a year or decade for it, it was only a opinion. I never once said that this is what should or has to happen. We all know very well how things are done in this country, but that does not mean it has to be or is 100% the right way.And this is a view that is shared by many who did not call this great Country our National Home, Just as Americans have a different view . At no time did i ever say that either system was right or wrong, i simply said there was good in both systems that could be talked about. And my Views on the RSL Name, it has been ragged on but there is page after page on this board from all of you saying the same thing. The NBA plays hoops different then any other league in the world, and from top to bottom has the best players in the world, but just a few months agao it was proven that playing that system does not mean that it produces the best situation to win on a world stage. I don`t know about the rest of you but 5 pages of this endless circle is about all i can take on it as we will never end up in 100% agreement,
My point here was that minor leagues still get local coverage in most markets. I'm not predicting a deal like the Nationwide got with BSB (which later bombed), but if the level of MLS escalates then perhaps the 1 game a week coverage ESPN gives now, may instead go to MLS2, with greater coverage to the new better MLS (all hypothetical). After all, I've seen plenty of A League games on tv and even girls college soccer, so deal deal for lower level exist. I agree that the best players in MLS are as good as most top players...hence why they leave. The better than average players in MLS have not shown international class and have ultimately failed and returned (or are destined to do so). If Bobby Convey (poor motivation or not) can't break in to a Reading team, despite a good position still one of the weakest in the championship, then its not a favourable indicator. My whole point is that I'm going along with a theoretical expoansion to 2 divisions. I agree that this is not in the immediate future. I think that once we get to 18-20 teams, then we should look at a split into 2 divisions. It would need planning and could have repercussions but it's not out of the questions. I think that MLS would only be strengthened by adding a couple of larger Canadian markets (cue flames from the ignorant/xenophobic amongst you) - Toronto, Montreal (esp after a good A League) and Vancouver at least. It's not like Chivas so don't draw that comparison. And don't bring up the MNT as the MLS has little bearing on the improvement of that as most of the internationals are foreign based (which should tell you all something).
1. I said it was 2nd or third tier. Those teams were illustrating my wide range of comparison to make such an assessment. I wasn't comparing them directly to any team, just that they would be Championship/league 1 in England, or lower SPL team. 2. One game, random teams. This is no basis for getting into a team, perhaps an overview of the league, but isn't going to hook anyone. 90 million homes watching MLS? More like 2.5 million watched 20 odd games. 3. A Cheap SSS, well the price very much depends on land costs. Rochesters PAETEC park is what, $23m? (I concede a tad small) Not all land costs as much as LA. I'm not saying bring a bunch of losers in, but significantly lower the bar so that you're not ruling out 99.9% of the population. Allow consortiums and not just multi-millionaires to participate.
Ok i`ll bite, there is NO MLS teams under the Current Salary cap system that could keep from being relegated out of the EPL. The 20th place EPL team spends on Average $3 million just on transfers, this does not include player wages.So right from the start MLS teams would be fielding weaker teams. If they raised the salery cap then it would be different. I will agree , but maybe Al would know better that the top MLS teams under the current Salary Cap could play in the Nationwide First Division. I think the league as a whole could do well Below Rangers and Celtic in the SPL .If you look at the SPL History its really only the Rangers and Celtic that are EPL Level and the rest are First Division spending catch ups. But i will yeild to Aljarov on this as he may have even a better view on this .
This is not the case in this country. I can't recall ever seeing a minor-league baseball game on TV, certainly never national TV. For that matter, Division 1-AA College football games are nearly impossible to find, even at a regional level. You can't be sure that MLS2 games would get any play on TV. A-league would probably not get any either if there were enough teams for there to be several games broadcast. Actually, I think this is the perfect indicator. As I said, DC United didn't have an option on the bench that was as good (or nearly) as Convey. So, he continued to start and play. Bruce Arena has already benched him because of his reduced form. But, BA has options that DC United doesn't. This would be a touchy subject. I know NASL did it, but more recently FIFA warned Britain that having Scotland FA teams playing England FA teams might force a review of the seperate FAs. Not sure how FIFA would view this, so I'd be careful. Plus, I'm not sure you'd get a whole lot of fans. The Canadian MNT draws poorly. What makes you think that a professional team made up of Canadians and other players would draw any better? I don't see Canada as the answer. Again, more questions there than answers. But I'm sure if some Billion dollar I/O showed up wanting to put a team in Vancouver, there would be more investigations into the posibilities. Of course, Chivas would probably leave LA right after the announcement and head to Guadalajara! Money talks, ask Real Salt Lake!!