White has strength, a bit of pace, & maybe a mental advantage over Wondo. And we're in better position to build to a striker who operates in small spaces now. I'd modestly bet against White translating, but we don't know what we don't know. So he should get a real opportunity - a 3 cap experiment - before discarding. On the flip-side, it also shouldn't go 30-40 caps before realizing he doesn't have it. Try over a significant sample, then move on to the next.
BTW, starting Ferreira at CF in January camp would be a waste of time. He's not going to advance his standing regardless. If Vazquez is still around, I suppose you could get something from a sample of a couple more starts, since he only got 1 in GC, and it marred an otherwise good tourney. But both those players may be transferred. And regardless, ideally we'd see a fresh face get a real run out, preferably 2 - 1 start and sub for each. I think those would be 2 of White, Ebobisse, & McGuire. It's inexperienced, but we can mix in "vets" at some other positions. I'd also like a fresh CB such as Ragen given a start and another appearance next to a vet like Miazga or Zimmerman. Expand our options there. That can be done throughout the field. If Gutierrez is still around, he needs a start and a sub appearance. Tolkin needs a start and a sub appearance at LB. I don't like the way Hudson only gave a game each to guys like Tolkin and Morris at next camp. New standouts need to play in both games.
Doubt it. Wondo's movement was fantastic -- the dude put up a 26 goal season in MLS. This is White's career high at 14 goals in MLS -- though yes, I know in all comps it's a very nice 18g/6a. It's resource allocation. I'm not playing someone new for October or November; I'm prepping for Nations League and then I'm not risking not qualifying for the World Cup. These are A team camps for me, at least in terms of game time. I'm not against bringing in guys who likely won't play, but Brian White isn't high enough upside/high enough likelihood in one of these camps to bother. Next March is Nations League, then Copa prep and Copa. So it's basically January camp. Which may work out. Vazquez and/or Ferreira may be gone, and almost certainly Vazquez. I'd bring in Duncan McGuire over White, probably, or move some of the striker esque wingers over (Cowell, Morris), but yeah, I could see a January call. It's guys like him and Ebobisse. I view the chance of scaling as pretty damn low, though. He's 27. This is by far his best year. Stylistically, he's not adding much except in the box. He's a fox in the box type and works hard but is 5'10". If he finishes up the season strong, I could see him in January camp.
As noted, I'm fine with a White January camp look ... but also, it if doesn't happen, I'd bet a hefty sum it doesn't matter for the USMNT (obviously matters for White). I do think there's a good chance January camp becomes a U23 Olympic prep camp with a few senior leaders for ... leadership. Set the standard, expectations, and play an additional positional coach. Which lessens the chance of a White or a Ragen, and I'd be okay with that if we are rolling out Tolkins and McGuires and Brian Gutierrez types.
Cool, thanks. When I get down to the 9th guy on the previously compiled list, I'm losing focus a little. I'll catch it up next time around. MLS posts league goals, so that's what I post. I'm glad it's stimulating discussion. That would be great if you want to post all-comps lists!
You can have separate u23 and senior camps. Then you double the resource allotment. I think one mistake from last cycle they should have learned from is splitting the camp interests. Ragen shouldn't be conflated with White because he's breaking thru at 1st chance and he unequivocally has good physical tools, to go along with some ability to play too. But if we waste games on guys like Ferreira or a crappy u-23 CB option (of which they almost all are) who we learn nothing from, that's the staff being foolish, and they should be knocked for it. There can't be nihilism because we think we're all infallible geniuses in terms of prospect evaluation. Part of the equation is that, but another is a sound integration process. And the latter is more worthy of blame because it's easily controllable. Then you could afford mistakes that come with being human.
I appreciate it. I just think it's notable in this case if for one it literally doubles their total, and for another it increases it by less than 10 percent, causing him to be surpassed.
It definitely doesn't reflect the totality of BV's season. And, Cincy is in first, right? That's gotta be an element of the discussion. The 9 on the first place team is probably also contributing in ways that don't show up on paper, no matter his stats.
I don't think that's a waste at all. Ferreira and say, Jalen Neal, are both far more likely contributors than White or Jackson Regan, IMO. Though I wouldn't mind seeing Regan at some point. I'm not really in the camp of everyone getting a chance. There's a line. Some guys never get past it. Ferreira doesn't have a ton of reason to be in camp, but neither does White. Neal has a good many reasons to be in camp.
It's a waste. We already know Ferreira can play against Jan camp comp. It's just redundant at this point. His questions to answer are elsewhere. So there's no excusing it. It'd be a failure. And reasons like this are a microcosm as to why sufficient depth charts aren't built thru a cycle, then we end up as thin as we were in the WC.
There's a lot of reasons to call a player in aside from having every player in camp being evaluated. Depth doesn't exist because you try out guys. It exists because there are enough good guys to fill a depth chart. Just because people want to try out guys, doesn't mean that depth actually exists out there. Everything is odds, and Brian White just doesn't make the cut of me thinking there's enough of a chance. I'm fine not dipping to like #9 on the striker depth chart until he proves a bit more and moves up the list. He's also decent enough that I'm fine with a call.
Depth exists when you try enough options that qualify for experiment, and 1 of them is successful. That's literally the only way you find out. You don't find out when you don't try, one way or another, especially when it comes to players in 2nd rate leagues like MLS or the Eredivisie (eg.). That's a proven fact. You don't get January camp & GC successes, then in turn integration, without doing the work. I've heard you prejudicially dismiss guys like Hollingshead even to justify never calling them up. That's a guy who clearly does have physical tools, skill, and performance. Just a matter of seeing if it applied. Look how much Vazquez and Jones have already contributed, after shutting them out pre-WC. We still haven't gotten much of a look at Tolkin. 2 starts - 1 good, 1 bad in which our a-team starter was worse twice. That's a crap process. You have an indefensible position here when there's no value (as opposed to at least minimal, by any reasonable person's theory) in playing the same b-players for games where winning is meaningless, and you're still arguing for it, because you think that's what the staff may do.
Good lord, there's so much rhetoric in here. Maybe tone it down a little? There's no reason to be so angry about everything. You're getting worked up over Brian White. I just don't think everyone needs to be tried out to be evaluated. I really think that we can scout reliably to the point that the probable value of a Brian White tryout is of lower value than other players / other activities. And please don't lump in either Vazquez or Tolkin to this bucket, both of whom I've supported and wanted call-ups for. Both of those guys make my line of "we need to take a look." Brian White doesn't. That's all. It's a pretty simple evaluation -- there's a whole slew of strikers who I can't possibly see White being better than, and the ones that he might be better than ... Brian White might have a 10% chance to be our sixth string striker for a year? Thats not a lot of value for me. But Vazquez? I think Brandon's upside is signficantly higher. He's most likely going to top out as a 3rd string kind of guy but there's an outside shot at even more value to add onto that. Add in that we have a lot of smaller strikers and yeah, you need to bring in Brandon. Or Tolkin. LB is unsettled, he's young, skilled, tough. What's not to like? I'm more intrigued by Regan than White, for similar reasons. (I put Hollingshead in the Gressel bucket. I don't think he can defend at the international level, so yeah, bring him in, I guess, but I don't think he sticks at all. And he's not young.)
For friendlies in this stage of the cycle, upside should get a lot of weight when choosing the last couple players for each camp.
I'm hopeful that one or both of Ferreira and Vazquez are unavailable for January camp as they'll be moving to Europe. So we gotta call up somebody......................... I'd probably go Hoppe, Gioacchini, and Ebobisse in that case. Cowell as a wing/forward (and maybe Cade will be on his way to Europe too.) Hoppe in order to get him going with the Olympics in mind. .................but Brian White is worthy of a chance. He'd be next man up. If folks have young forwards they'd like to see, I'm all ears. We've talked about our lack of forwards for the Olympic team, and we're almost certainly going to take an overage guy. Maybe a 2000 like Gioacchini or Ferreira.
If Vazquez, Ferreira, Jones, Cowell, M. Robinson, and Tolkin are in Europe…. My 26 man roster GK Drake Callender, Roman Celentano, Chris Brady*, Patrick Schulte* (John Pulskamp*) RB Cameron Harper*, Mauricio Cuevas*, Reed Baker-Whiting* CB Jalen Neal*, George Campbell* CB Walker Zimmerman (CPT), Joshua Wynder* (Justin Haak*, Brandon Craig*, Noah Cobb*, Josh Atencio*) LB Caleb Wiley*, Noah Allen* MF Aidan Morris*, Obed Vargas* MF James Sands, Jack McGlynn*, Noel Buck* (Owen Wolff*, Daniel Edelman*) RM Diego Luna*, Ted Ku-DiPietro* AM Benjamin Cremaschi*, Niko Tsakiris* LM Brian Gutierrez*, Tyler Wolff* (Aziel Jackson*) FW Duncan McGuire*, Matthew Hoppe*, Quinn Sullivan* (Rodrigo Neri*, Marcos Zambrano*) Simply put, I would invest more in our January Camp being more of an u23 camp with maybe only a few over aged players. I don’t care to see Jordan Morris, Aaron Long, etc. again for the USMNT. They’re not going to help the program. But using this camp to get ready for the Olympics and test out some new players would be wise. Please…. Can we get an u23 center back to step up!!!!
White really reminds Wondo. His movement in the box is excellent, it always looks like the ball is looking for him, always open. Maybe the best in the air in the whole league. Not sure that a really good CB won't eat him for a lunch, though.
Goals added above position avg: .21 White (all his net positive value is from receiving) .15 L. Acosta .12 Wagner .09 Gil, Zimmerman .08 Brody .07 Hollingshead, Ragen .06 JMo, Hedges .05 Gressel, Mukhtar, Glad, Gutman, Romney, Bedoya .04 Blackmon, Bye, Bradley, Miazga, Rosenberry, Tolkin, Dotson, Farrell
And then there is this one. https://app.americansocceranalysis.com/#!/mls/goals-added/players #1 field player in the league, not like I'd take it seriously.
I really don’t think it would transfer well to the USMNT under Berhalter, notoriously bad at creating value for strikers. Receiving itself measures skills - ones that rely on teammates, sure, but skills nonetheless. I think it could transfer to the right league and team but expecting a career poacher to suddenly develop an all around game isn’t going to happen.
Would he really? Wondo looked good with the Nats often enough, scored 11 or 12 goals too. I don't know why White would necessarily be outclassed, does he have bad technical ability? His xG is as good as Zardes in his heydey and he was often pretty good for the USMNT.
I think so. Our striker quality has gone up since Zardes was in the pool. I don't think he makes a roster today. White's definitely behind on the broader skill set. He's not as big as Vazquez or Dike or as fast as Balogun or as skilled as Ferreira or Sargent. Yes, there are players who get by mostly on positioning and being in the right place. They are pretty rare. He's just further down on my depth chart.
8 of Wondo's 11 goals were against Belize, Cuba, and Guatemala. He never scored a goal against even a semi-good team in a game that mattered. Ferreira, Vazquez, etc. have already done that in WCQers, Gold Cup, etc. Heck, Hoppe scored the game-winning goal against Jamaica in the Gold Cup quarterfinal. That's a better goal than Wondo ever scored. And just so we're clear..........let's not disrespect Zardes. He wasn't a bit player for the USMNT. He had 68 caps. The most capped player in USMNT history never to go to a World Cup. Before the emergence of Pepi, Balogun, Ferreira, and Vazquez over the last two years..................who exactly did we have (other than a rapidly fading Altidore)? He scored some important goals for us. The brace against Canada in the 2021 Nations League. He scored that one against Ecuador at Copa America. Game winning goal against Qatar in the 2021 Gold Cup semifinal. These are more important goals than Wondo ever scored. I really liked Wondo. No reason not to. Being the MLS all-time goalscorer is a little bit of a poisoned chalice, though. If Ferreira stays in MLS and breaks that record (which he is on pace to shatter).....................I'd be disappointed with his career. I mean, he'd make tons of money and have a long career in the sport. But that's like the guy that breaks the all-time home run record in AAA. Great. Baseball fans can't name him. The world's soccer fans can't name MLS' all-time goalscoring leader. ..............................there's nothing wrong with working on the bottom of the depth chart. I forgot about McGuire in my considerations above. So at January camp I'd be fine with McGuire, Gioacchini, and Hoppe. Cowell as a wing/forward. Work on the future. Some will make it. Some won't. That's part of the deal. But if the staff wants to look at Ebobisse and White, then I have no problem with that either. And if there's a U23 camp in January taking those guys like McGuire, Hoppe, Cowell away.................then I'm even more fine with White and Ebobbisse. I mean, those guys aren't 32. They're 26-27. They're in their primes. If we have an injury crisis and need an emergency forward to score goals at Copa America...................would I trust Ebobisse or McGuire? Probably neither. I'd bring back Pefok. But of Ebobisse and McGuire, I'd trust Jeremy.
I'm not a big Wondo fan, as I wasn't watching MLS in his prime but he didn't have whole lot of chances to score those guals against good teams. You can't score from the bench. He wasn't even an MLS starter until his mid 20s. I don't know what he would have done if he played more but I imagine he'd have been productive for the USMNT. You can't play everyone and he was behind better, younger strikers.