MLS Flavors of the week 2023 edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Dec 24, 2022.

  1. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    #4826 RalleeMonkey, Sep 25, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2023
    And, yet, they are better than Cowell and Jones. Who were called into the full NT.

    I'm only a fan of MLS to the extent that it produces players for the MNT. MLS started when I was 35. I don't have a team. The league matters to me to the extent that there are guys that I can watch and think, "that guy might contribute something." You're telling me: don't bother. That seems to be the gist of this topic. The guys that are tearing up MLS: not enough, never will be, for the NT. In any tournament, anywhere. F*ck 'em.

    Ok. That's fine, I've got all the streamers, I'll just watch the yanks abroad.
     
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  2. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    So, players never improve from the age of 24 to 28. The guy he was in 2019 is the same guy he is now. I'm not clamoring for Boyd. I am clamoring for him to be ahead of Cowell.

    I'm posting these stats, talking about these players b/c I'm looking for reason to follow MLS. Y'all are telling me don't bother. Got it.
     
  3. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mostly agree, but I don't think that's his ideology either (though there's been a recent shift on the spectrum), & this crusade against Jones is odd. He's excelled in MLS and done well for the USMNT. Ironically, he's one of the individual exceptions that makes a case for continued January camps & Gold Cups, & utility of not just the MLS players who are still teens. Don't have to downplay Jones to build up Lennon's case.

    Jones was better in his first cap than Lennon & Brooks has holes in his game that makes you seriously concerned he's a moderately better version of Gressel. His defense isn't so good, he's 1-footed, & you need to play him open to uncork that cross which is, in fairness arguably the best of anyone in the pool abroad or at home, in a group with, wait for it....Gressel. Lennon's had a 13 g+a season. Gressel's had 3 better than that. By itself, it's not a great predictor of top league/USMNT success, in comparison to tools & well-roundedness, w/ 1 standout ability. If he keeps excelling in MLS, sure call him to another Jan camp, and give him a cap or two (not both starts). But I'm not betting on him breaking in.
     
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  4. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Wow - this is the first critique of Lennon I've seen, and I've been posting about him for weeks. Thank you.

    I don't have anything against Jones. I hope he does great. But, until now, no one has provided any reason why he should be called up ahead of a guy that is scorching MLS - hugely way better production than Jones.

    But, the board, collectively, has said none of the guys producing matter. Maybe, they'll get t/f'd to Europe. If so, then maybe they'll matter. So, I've kind of gotten an answer to my question.

    Peace, and thank you.
     
  5. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Neither he is progressing. Basically the same player as 3 years ago, might be the same in three years.
     
  6. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Sometimes 6 years. Beckerman was ignored while being a top MLS player for a long long time.
     
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  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Cowell is still only 19. It seems like he's been around forever. He's like a year and a half younger than Matthew Hoppe.

    I think we all like his physical tools. There's a reason a Serie A club was after him this past window. Let's not act like he's a dud. Maybe he'll reach his potential and maybe he won't.

    He also had that dual-national card. Play that card well, and you can get an opportunity. Aidan Morris played it. Start talking about how you're still undecided, and voilà...............
     
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  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Cowell had the U20s and the Top 4 interest. He broke through at lone striker. He is not being played in that position. Hc could possible play right mid. He certainly as hell isn't an inverted wing.

    Hoppe has had good to excellent g/a per 90 everywhere he has gone. I believe his problems are not footballing related.
     
  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Hoppe's problem seems to have been opportunity.

    There have been doubts about Cowell ever since he was 15. People like him, but don't know what to do with him.

    I remember Brek Shea when he was a teen at Dallas. They tried him everywhere (forward, central mid, left back, centerback, left wing, etc.) Left wing was where they happened to have an opening. They didn't need a left back, as they already had 3 good ones on the roster. So he played left wing, and he did well enough. Finished 3rd in MVP voting one year. But you always wonder. Left wing got him on the field and got him a big money move to Europe. But what would his long-term projection have been if he'd started at another position? [His lack of "emotional intelligence" might have been a hindrance regardless.]

    I sorta wonder about Cowell. Is San Jose playing him in the right position for his long-term development?
     
  10. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've (mildly) argued for Jones over Lennon for the USMNT on account of their respective skillsets. Yes, Lennon is killing it this season on the offensive numbers for a fullback, and that's always tempting. But @thedukeofsoccer's assessment reinforces what I've seen and said on here. He just doesn't look like a guy whose game is going to translate to the NT, whereas Jones' game looks much more likely to be effective (and, also, Jones is a more versatile FB, being able to play left and right). But I'd be happy to be incorrect in my presumptions and see Lennon come into a camp and keep killing it. Dejuan Jones has so far acquitted himself well in his opportunities.
     
  11. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    How many clubs now have decided to give PT to someone else.
     
  12. tefftlon

    tefftlon Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    Jan 11, 2023
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably my biggest complaint/confusion when it comes to MLS players and the USMNT.

    For example, Parks. His form this season has dropped off but for a lot of the 2022 cycle, it made no sense to me why he was ignored while others got the opportunity.

    I'm not saying the manager should hope on every bit of good form, but it's an area that needs done better.
     
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  13. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Hoppe has had opportunities. He has produced in those opportunities.

    Shea lacked the mentality.

    Weah is a right-footed player who does well along the right at right back, right wingback, right mid, and right forward. I see Cowell in that same light. Cowell may also be able to play some striker at a higher level. Thee's a crazy mania to play these guys inverted when many can't or are too inexperienced. Kevin Paredes, for example, has more productive on the left.
     
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  14. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    The other problem is that a significantly smaller proportion of our starters spend much, if any, time in MLS these days, so I think even Camp Cupcake's role in elevating up and comers is diminished now. They still help with depth, but that doesn't make them as valuable anymore.

    The number of first choice World Cup starters with any first team experience in MLS (or Scandinavia, which would make them available for January camps) was typically around 8-9 players from 2002-2014. It was 4 players this time (Turner, Zimmerman, Ream, and Adams). The number of first choice World Cup starters who had appeared in a January camp that same cycle was typically around 4-5 in past cycles. This time it was 2 players (Turner and Zimmerman -- with Adams leaving for Europe just prior to Berhalter's first January camp, and Ream last appearing in a January camp back in 2011).

    So these camps used to help managers identify or work with nearly half their potential starting lineup each cycle. Now, there might only be a single future starter in the entire camp.
     
  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It does seem weird on the surface. Perhaps, though, it's just got more to do with Berhalter wanting to see players in lower-level leagues show well more consistently before giving them a shot with the full NT. It seems to apply to guys outside of the big 5 in Europe as well (dual-Nats bypass this to large degree).
     
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  16. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well the argument for waiting has examples of players like Rubio Rubin getting on a once in a career goal scoring run only to disappear after that. Many other examples. I think most of this will go away because the team is just so much better players will have to make a real case in club play and that won't be by being a flash in the pan but being good over a long period. Last cycle was emergency mode where anyone with a pulse was looked at and many given a chance. thankfully that phase is over.
     
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  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #4842 TheHoustonHoyaFan, Sep 26, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2023
    Rubin went to Utrecht in 2014 as a 18yo did well his first year( 3G, 6A, 28M) and got 2-3 USMNT caps. He got injured and fought his way back. Contrast with Taylor Booth.

    Rubio's career year was was '21 in MLS with 8G, 6A in 34M.
     
  18. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cowell sure looks like an inverted wing. He's very good at cutting in to get the right footed shot. He's got to stop hitting the post.
     
  19. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Yep, he's a young 'un. He's not fully baked. Looking forward to seeing him improve. Looking forward to seeing other players in the meantime.
     
  20. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Cowell has mostly played winger and his time at striker has been very limited. Maybe 10 games or so.

    I don't know if he'd make a good striker. The speed and size are there, but the movement in the box isn't something everyone has. It's certainly worth a try -- but I suspect we'd see a lot of what we see in our strikers ... a lack of ability to get to the ball in a crowded box.

    He definitely is more of a speed and power winger on pure tools and skillset. Whether inverted is a better spot for him or the right side is is somewhat debatable. He has a nice shot coming off the cut-in, but his left foot isn't very strong. We've seen little of him on the right because Espinoza is simply much better and prefers that side.

    I understand why people question Cowell -- his inconsistency in terms of skill play is sometimes maddening, and people tend to recognize that he makes errors in good situations more than they realize how many of those good situations he's creating.

    What I don't get is the vitriol I see around him. Not sure why people actively despite him -- and some of you seem to by word choice.

    I also don't get what is so hard to understand about why a 19 year old professional winger with the physical tools to make it at any level is getting looks above their production. This isn't hard as to why he's getting minutes over Tyler Boyd or Jebo.

    Lastly, while Cowell's actual production numbers are underselling his year. He's still not played really well, but the 1g/2a numbers are about half of what he's deserved. That's not his rookie season that had so much promise, but he is in line with last year on his underlyings. Hell, he's hit the post about 6 times alone this year. And he was valuable at the U20s.

    Yes, he's a level of lottery ticket. A better one than most of the guys I slap with that label, but still there's a boom or bust aspect to him relative to our pool. If Pulisic, Weah, Aaronson and, I suspect, Taylor Booth, are healthy come November, we won't see him on the roster. There may be more wingers ahead of him, including Arriola and Morris. I'd bet Berhalter would kill for a left footed winger of competence to help back up Pulisic.

    We're three years from the World Cup. It's perfectly alright to take a look at a young, extremely fast, strong, and decently skilled American.
     
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  21. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The last World Cup is a skewed sample because it was in the middle of MLS' offseason & most of the guys still in the league who had performed well for the USMNT - Miles Robinson, Jordan Morris, Aaron Long - had recently suffered catastrophic injuries. Over-under is 2 of those players would have started games otherwise.

    In addition, that comp took place when MLS academy products were still in their teens to early 20's, so they naturally wouldn't be starting yet. Over time that projects to flip, and we'd start/use more players who came thru MLS, even if the group who was still there was reduced because our standard was higher. Though MLS is a constantly growing league, so it may evolve with our talent pool.

    "Starters at the WC" is also quite a limited, small sample criteria too. It would have behooved Berhalter to rotate & start guys like Aaronson for a game. And you usually (not this time) have to qualify for the WC. So you didn't see value in players like Miles, Turner, Pepi, & Zimmerman; and all the players who began in MLS, getting us to the WC in the 1st place? If we relied on Euro-based players solely, we wouldn't have made it. And those integrations for many of the initial domestics started in Jan camp. So there's the continuing value.
     
  22. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I think the big mistake we make constantly is believing giving guys caps to play for the national team is going to play a meaningful role in their development. A guy makes his case by standing out in MLS or wherever he is playing first, then call him in as a bench option and give him some minutes if he looks the part in training against better competition. Everyone doesn't deserve a game with the national team just because they're an American playing professionally somewhere. If we expected performance before rather than after getting a cap, the guys who get passed over as 22 year olds but improve by the time they're 25-26 would get included more often and the overall level of competition at camps would increase. Instead, we're always taking a flyer on guys whose performances aren't all that good in the hopes that somehow bringing them into the national team is going to turn them into something. That's why big teams only call in players who beat out the competition, because games for the national team aren't going to change anything and if they can't do it at a lower level, there is no reason to believe they will do it at a higher one. I think this is a leftover attitude from when our guys weren't scouted as thoroughly so if a guy didn't get time with the national team his club opportunities were more limited. We don't need to use the national team as a springboard to club soccer opportunities anymore and I think if anything the national team setup suffers for trying to hold onto the notion that it is a development tool rather than a reward for those who succeed.
     
  23. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I didn't say there was no value. Just significantly less than there was in the past.

    And I did acknowledge that the domestic camps do still provide depth for us. And I agree that depth is important, especially during a qualifying campaign. That alone probably will continue to justify their existence, but it does change the way I think about these camps now.

    Numerically, by multiple measures, we were about half as reliant on January camp players in our starting lineup this time as we had been in any World Cup since the inception of MLS. Sure that was during the winter, but those numbers haven't changed at all in the A team lineups we've played during the MLS season under multiple managers since then. If that eventually does change due to the rise of MLS academies then yeah that would cause me to reevaluate.

    I also have no problem adding in guys like Miles and Pepi who were either injured or who should have been at the World Cup (though there's a chance that Robinson's or Long's minutes would have come at Zimmerman's expense, had they remained healthy all cycle). But I don't think that affects the ratios much here since past World Cups also had potential starters from MLS clubs who ended up being injured (Armas, Holden) or weren't called up at all (Donovan).
     
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  24. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I remember a bunch of noise for a callup for him in '21. He cooled off and the noise died down.
     

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