MLS Flavors of the Week: 2022 edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Jan 1, 2022.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Any kind of hardcore rule is silly, but I do actually think that in most cases, it's probably the best move to be a good/very good MLS player before moving in terms of development.

    You want to be pushed, but you want to be good enough for playing time. The transfer fee, the prior performance, the salary that tends to come with a good player transferring helps lock that in, in addition to your actual better play.

    More importantly, though, I think these players really benefit from developing some time as one of the better players. For offensive players, you get practice being the focal point or the man. It's different between Brenden Aaronson as the top of the diamond than someone who is the work hard / young legs getting carried in the midfield. On defense, marking the best opponents instead of getting hidden ... these are different experiences and skills.

    Competition is nice, and at some point, you do need to chase it if you want to play at the highest levels, by definition. But I think we underrate the value of experience in certain roles on a team that you don't always get if you are the lower performance / higher potential player.

    Look at a guy like Bryan Reynolds. I think another year would have been better for his development.

    Guys like Pepi are more of a challenge. He probably could have used more time, but it's much harder to know that in the moment. And we're still unsure; he came to Augsburg mid-season and it's been just about three months of play.
     
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  2. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    those tweets from doyle are from a year and a half ago, just to make sure everyones putting them in the right context. in general i think hes strong in analysis after the fact, but pretty terrible applying that to the present/future.

    also important context is doyle- like many here- still have this idea of a 10 that really doesnt exist anymore.

    in any case the point is that aaronson has always been a really low usage player, and (this is my opinion) hes better used wide with a higher usage player inside. ba has improved incrementally, but hes still rarely getting 50 touches in a match regardless of positioning/role. i havent looked at numbers, but i would guess busio is the only player weve used centrally who has anything close to that few touches per match

    .
     
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  3. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know why people are getting mad at strawmen. All I asked was who had outgrown MLS? I agreed that Turner is a good shout but most guys people have mentioned are transferring more as prospects.

    Nobody should expect a teenager to dominate MLS and besides Alphonso Davies and Adams, they don't.
     
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  4. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one size fits all. Loads of factors involved.
    1. Has a player learned about all he can at his current MLS club?
    2. Is he moving and expected to jump into a starting role in a Big 5 or will he be in their second side or youth team? The answer to that changes a lot on when a player should go.
    3. Money. This is their chosen profession and one that they won't have for 30 years like us regular working stiffs. We tend to look at player moves through the lens of how it helps our national team. Which is fine, I do too. But that isn't where their bread is buttered.
     
  5. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I don't really know when the right time to move is.

    My general rule of thumb is that players typically don't succeed relatively quickly at a high level (i.e., starting regularly within half-a-season for a non-relegated side in a top 4-5 league or a Champions League knockout stage type club) without multiple seasons as a starter in MLS (or a comparable level), and/or at least one full season with a serious shout for Best XI type recognition.

    But that doesn't mean that players who don't fit that bill shouldn't move earlier either; they just need to be smart and realistic about the path they're going to take. Michael Bradley transferred to a midtable Eredivisie club before he was anything special in MLS, and he didn't start much for Heerenveen for a year and a half after he transferred, but he did eventually end up starting regularly for multiple Serie A and Bundesliga clubs, so it's hard to argue with the path he took. EPB seems like he might end up being another success story with a similar path -- one that probably didn't look so smart or well-calculated even just 8 months ago.
     
  6. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Busio was very high touch in MLS. He's used a lot less in Italy.
     
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  7. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Transferring as prospects has certainly worked for moves to the mid-tier leagues of Europe. Bradley, Onyewu, Charlie Davies, Bedoya, and EPB. Each had worked his way up from the mid-tier leagues to the Top-5. Each had started out as a college product or as an inexperienced MLSers.

    When is the right time to move? It's not too difficult to look at the history of moves from MLS/US to Europe.
     
  8. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Aaronson nailed it. He went to a place that wants exactly what he provides and has a clear plan for his career.
     
  9. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the recent success (maybe I should say the success about 1-1.5 years ago) has inflated the price of the best MLS prospects to where the teams that would be the best at developing them can no longer compete to acquire them. They've been priced out. So should Pepi have wait a year or moved to a mid team in Eredivisie or comparable? Yes but bot he and FCD were overwhelmed with 15-20 million dollar buy offered. Could it still work out? Sure would seem a team wouldn't blow that kind of money without a plan but who knows?

    Reynolds was a similar situation. He's now loaned to a league where he should have found a team initially but again Roma offered way more than those teams would pay.

    A lesser initial price with a large buy on seems logical but my observation is teams have a lot less incentive to move players on when they only get 50% or so. Not sure what the best practice is here but it will likely settle as more of these players move and the foreign teams get a better handle on how quickly and at what level they can compete.
     
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  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Outgrown is a tough word and I don't see a ton of point in a semantics discussion.

    Adams, Davies, Turner, Long, Miles, Zimmerman, Aaronson, McKenzie, Busio all have played at a level where I don't think they HAVE to go but clearly are good enough in MLS. Paxton before the injury as well. Mueller when he was good. Morris. Roldan and Arriola are good enough now but probably don't translate well.

    Not all were dominant, but players like Busio were good MLS players, and I think it's a viable path to try and take the next step in either locale. Pepi and Dike were guys with short hot streaks that would have worked either way. Perhaps a bit less ready or well rounded, but still there's value in both side.

    I think from a pure developmental standpoint, players like Reynolds or Cole Bassett or a some of those other guys who are pretty raw ... it's not that moving is definitively a mistake.

    It's just that there's value in getting to the point where you are doing more than treading water, where you are a real asset out there. That's a developmental point in itself, and sometimes you can get buried somewhere before you get a chance to learn those lessons.

    I think you've got to get from "He's good for his age / he's holding his own" to "he's actively helping us win / he's a plus MLS player."

    Jesus Ferreira is helping Dallas win. Edwin Cerillo is holding his own. There's a difference.
     
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  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #1536 IndividualEleven, May 10, 2022
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
    Absolutely, the best money move and the best development move don't necessarily coincide.
    Look at what Erling Haaland did. Sweden. Austria. B1. ManCity. Perfect. He didn't skip any steps. Of course, being the son of a former professional footballer doesn't hurt.

    Reynolds's situation has been rendered even more difficult by his not having played defender at youth levels. His numbers in Belgium haven't been strong.
    That too was ideal as he had the opportunity to work on his attacking game while getting opportunities to test himself in UCL.
     
  12. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Open Cup play resumes tonight. The Philly youth are getting starts tonight: Aaronson, Sullivan, Freeze, McGlynn and Real. Philly plays at Orlando City at 7. ESPN+ has all of the games, plus will be having a whip around show as well.
     
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  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100% for home-grown players and U22 initiative players. Players can signed under the U22 initiative until they are 25.
     
  14. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I meant a sell on fee for the team selling. Like Richards at Bayern. They may really love his long term potential but it could also be he's worth more just in case because there's a high sell on.
     
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  15. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    I’ll be watching from the wall.
     
  16. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    He was also named to MLS Best 11 in 2020.
     
  17. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Adams wasn't better then Aaronson, and worse now. It's just that he is irreplaceable as we have a huge hole at 6. Davies is a totally different level, MLS might not have next Davies in a long long time. Doesn't mean that nobody should go to Europe.
     
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  18. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMO,It was a bad choice like when Steffen was GK of the year.
     
  19. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
     
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  20. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Philly looks a bit ragged right now, but they always do.

    Quinn Sullivan did show some strong speed on a nice run forward. Nothing came of it, but he was outpacing the defense pretty easily. Just struggled to move as quickly with the ball.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Adams is going through a dip in form. He's 23 and has been playing at a high level since he was 16. He'll be back.
     
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  22. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aaron Long went off injured in the 11' of RBNY's USOC Game with DCU.
     
  23. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Sure, but he isn't Davies and never will be.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Foreshadowing the September MNT camp.
     
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  25. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
    Not cool:unsure:
     
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