I hear you jsbach. Having only been to OK once, I'm not totally up on its politics and policies. Anyway, an energy trading part of another company going bust? Noo! [sarcasm]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... Originally posted by jsbach You continue to compare Tulsa's problems with major cities (Boston and Chicago) that are not only not fair comparisons because of size but they are also not at all plagued by the same geographic and commercial problems as Tulsa. Since when has Boston or Chicago had any trouble attracting businesses, conventions and tourism? Hmmm, if my comparisons are unfair (crime, racism), I'd guess yours (conventions, tourism) are, too... Since when have Boston or Chicago ever been fairly criticized for having downtown centers with nothing in them? The comparison serves no purpose. Your arguments revolve around treating Tulsa as if it needed to be like Boston or Chicago. I don't blame the current residents for the events... but I do think we, and our predecessors, are all at fault for failing to figure out that this segregation system isn't right and doesn't work. The schools in Tulsa integrated much better in my opinion than schools in Indianapolis, where racist school district gerrymandering resulted in a huge disparity in funding between IPS and at least a half dozen school districts ala Tulsa Union... I know parents who miss the "old Booker T"... The fear most Tulsans have of downtown is absurd. As cities go, it's pretty clean and pretty safe. I consider downtown Chicago and Boston to be safer at night than Tulsa (there I go with those unfair comparisons again)-- you can drive and park... but don't take a leisurely stroll... They look nice until you realize that their speedy construction and weak materials have given you a large house that will be falling apart in 20 years... but that doesn't matter because it will be someone else's problem by then, right? Disposable house. Cool. I consider that statement to be completely ridiculous (or "patently absurd" depending on your social standing). Most of these houses are brick homes that seem to be better built than the flimsy siding homes I've seen in other parts of the country-- besides, if they DO fall apart in 20 years, it simply means increased viewership for "This Old House" Now it becomes clear. My criticism of suburbanization is a criticism of your family's decisions. Well, relax. Your sister isn't evil. I'm sure she is trying to do the best she can for her kids.... yadda yadda yadda... Maybe Tulsa Ballet and Tulsa Opera should come to the people rather than the other way around. Most meat and potato Tulsans are not comfortable going downtown and don't consider downtown to be the "middle" of the city... maybe that ballet teacher could better serve the community by performing at TCC rather than being held hostage by a list of childish downtown demands... whether it's an arts issue or a stadium issue, I wish the "downtown only" folks would try to think outside the box now and then. I never said anything about there being a shortage of rednecks and racists across this nation. I don't believe Tulsa is particularly open about it's racism. Interestingly enough, you again like to slam on the "Southern Hills crowd" as being covertly racist. Add that to the fact that these are primarily the people that are on every board of every organization in Tulsa, and you'll see why you are now basically agreeing with me as to why Tulsa is the way it is. Or maybe you're beginning to agree with me about the Southern Hills crowd instead of throwing around macro-accusations of an entire city and it's suburbs based on the legacy of a ruling elitist clique... I already said how long. I'm entering year 8. As long as I've been around "Tornado Alley" is what the meteorologists call a rather large alley in the middle of the USA including most of the state, Kansas, and even parts of Texas. I'll also say that less likely doesn't mean impossible, although the amount of historic buildings would suggest to me that perhaps the tornadoes you are speaking of perhaps didn't impact downtown Tulsa quite as much as say, Moore or Midwest City. (and what happened when that hit Tulsa?... it hit the river, skipped down south a bit and disappeared.) I also don't recommend building houses on cliffs in California, but they have every right to do so. Does that mean I'm hoping they'll fall in from erosion? I'm beginning to see your vision... well-built, unaffordable high rise apts. so that all .8 million people can live on the same parcel of downtown land... this would take population density to more of an east coast/european model and no one would die in a tornado... nice work if u get it... Been there. Done that. I don't quite get what you see that is so wonderful. They just spent millions on a badly designed concert hall, and they have basically nothing to fill it with. Real smart. It's the Oklahoma way. Divide resources. Everyone has to have their own of everything. In the end, everyone has their own underfunded crap that can't compete with other comparably sized cities. Yes, and I could argue that the PAC (Chapman) is a horribly designed accoustical failure... I haven't been inside the auditorium at TCC but was pleasantly surprised to see that there was something like that built in SE Tulsa... I'm sure that if it had been built in downtown Tulsa you'd have considered it a needed masterpiece. Or like most famous icons, perhaps he needs to live off in the middle of nowhere for other reasons? Been there. Done that... Owasso's a rather nice "nowhere." Last time I checked, this is a soccer bulletin board and we were initially discussing why a pro sports league trying to portray itself as Major League might or might not find Tulsa attractive. That posed question gives me the right to suggest all I want why or not they might or might not. Yes, then you delved into your elitist social judgements/theories/dogmas which I have every right to debunk-- it would be nice to get back to the issue of the feasability of an MLS franchise... I'm not telling your sister how to live. I'm just pointing out how the collective choices of a couple of decades of ALL Tulsans have failed, IMO, to make this city very attractive as a MAJOR sports market. If you want to drink crappy coffee for $3 a cup, feel free. Here we go again with your indictments of ALL Tulsans with your societal judgments-- maybe all of Tulsa should have joined hands and formed a co-op! Excuse me, but this makes Tulsa no different than cities like Dallas or Indianapolis, only smaller... I happen to LIKE my $1.50 Starbucks coffee-- also like supporting local coffee shops on occasion-- sorry you lack manners... If you want to buy all your pre-selected books at B&N, then feel free. Translation: You'll destroy society in the next 2 decades completely if you shop at a bookstore with a wide selection of books, periodicals, and a good deep catalog of classical/jazz... Someday perhaps you'll notice that your selection of books isn't what it once was and that you get kind of tired of seeing the same store in every city you go to in the world. I'll inform friends in Evanston, IL to immediately stop shopping and drinking crappy coffee there... THERE'S A WORLDWIDE BOOKSTORE CONSPIRACY! Nah... we'll have invaded a few more countries and covertly overthrown more terrorist states... We'll be swimming in the stuff. You'll have no trouble getting down to Starbucks. Makes me wonder why you'd live in Tulsa for 8 mins., let alone 8 years... the "people's republic of Berkely" seems more your style as I hear they will be outlawing Starbucks, B&N and Border's soon (but not surprisingly will leave Tower Records conspiciously alone).
yadda yadda No. My arguments are that Tulsa will never grow to attract Major League attractions if it divides it's resources among downtown, South Tulsa, North Tulsa, Owasso, BA, Jenks, etc. It doesn't have enough resources. I also feel that Tulsa needs to be itself... not a copy of whatever OKC does. You seem to feel that Tulsa should just let it's history (downtown) die and rebuild to the southeast without any acknowledgement that the falling of downtown affects the whole city. You don't understand that it isn't just about organizations/people not wanting to venture in or out of downtown. It's about resources and how we divide them more than we can afford to. TCC's PACE would have been just fine if the various factions within Tulsa had actually worked together to build it... but they didn't. So what you have is a concert hall where the stage is too small to actually hold the productions of Tulsa Ballet, Tulsa Opera, Tulsa Philharmonic, top touring Broadway shows, etc. Money and facilities that could have gone toward reaching across these mid/south boundaries have now done the exact opposite, and it is because it was never built to attract Tulsa Opera, Tulsa Ballet, Celebrity Attractions, etc. to come south. It was built to say "we can do it on our own." "We don't need your stinkin' city..." Resources need to be pooled in a city this size. If they don't then Tulsa will wind up fizzling out. Since the "Southern Hills crowd" has the resources in their hands to a large degree, I have always seen them as a big part of Tulsa's development problems... but where you seem to think the SHers are somehow trying to force the middle class Meat and Potatoers to come downtown, I see the SHers historically fighting among themselves. They have generally guided the shift south as much as anyone. The PAC [Chapman] IS a rather poorly designed, accoustical mediocrity... but it is the only facility that can accomodate major attractions. TCC's PACE would be inadequate for any major performing arts attractions no matter where it could have been placed. So now south Tulsa has it's own community college auditorium with nothing to put in it. Great outside the box thinking! Now they can put more money into forming their own Arts groups, competing for limited funding with the present ones... Guess what happens next? Apparently anyone who wants to fight downtown gentrification is judgemental and elitist. So far your answer seems to be develop Woodland Hills... Just what does that do make the city more attractive to outsiders? BTW...You were the one that somehow equivalated downtown with upper class elitism... Tulsa is crucially different than Indy or Dallas in the very fact that it IS smaller! (It is also more geographically isolated.) These two differences mean it is even less forgiving of a situation when it comes to attracting those from outside the area. (Next you'll call me an elitist snob for saying Tulsa needs to attract those from outside the area...) Joining hands would accomplish far more than everyone trying to do it their own way. (and BTW, Dallas and Indy both have recently revitalized downtown areas that are central to their attracting and keeping Major League sports/arts.) Obviously more people across the nation agree with you on Starbucks than agree with me... even those evil "Utica Square folks!"... who are soon bringing the first Starbucks shop to Tulsa! Tell them to move to Tulsa or OKC. There will be no difference between their coffee and book selection, and yet they can buy a midtown house for the half the rent they are losing each month. Sometimes I too wonder why I stay in Tulsa (other than my hope for a better future... what an elitist idea...). If you listen to the recent political candidates, it seems a major issue is in trying to deal with the very fact that many of Tulsa's best are opting to leave. Ironically, you may be one of them. I may have no choice but to join you someday if Tulsa keeps dividing its resources.
You might chalk up Tulsa's "history" of downtown development to the reasons why many Tulsans are wary of yet another attempt to prop it up... During the late 70s/early 80s "oil boom" the city invested tons of $$$ in trying to make the Williams Center Forum a magnet for shopping and a centerpiece for the revitalization of downtown. And it worked for a few years. The Forum, though, was no different from Woodland Hills Mall only the Forum had **gasp** an ice-rink. Downtown development was not made to attract typical Tulsans who'd moved away back to downtown-- no... it was there to attract people from outside the city and state (not a bad idea) with luxury business hotels and fancy restaurants like Glass on the Green and Magic Pan... not a good Oklahoma steakhouse or tex-mex restaurant to be found. So, only Tulsans who worked downtown saw benefits as most others (after the "new" wore off) gave up braving the mostly 2-laned BA expressway or contantly busy 4-laned I-44 for over-priced french cuisine and chain stores they could find closer to home. The "Ed and Darlene" crowd don't seem to be impressed by over-priced hotels serving over-priced food in small portions. Downtown wasn't particularly welcoming to Tulsans, while at the same time the Chamber of Commerce buys full page ads in a Buffalo, NY newspaper touting "T - L S A-- the only thing missing is 'U'!" I don't think Tulsans want their downtown to "die"-- just that downtown development using taxpayer $$$ should be reasonable (i.e.-- no aquatics center/track & field projects please). Tulsans have trouble voting for bond issues for downtown/Riverside development when 2 of the 10 most dangerous intersections in the US are located-- you guessed it-- in SE Tulsa-- one of them at your hated Woodland Hills Mall on 71st and Memorial (2000 State Farm stats). Also, check a map and find that downtown is NOT centrally located (unlike OKC, Indianapolis and any number of others). Here are some reasons why Tulsans leave town: 1) No major colleges in Tulsa--TU is a small private school with only a handful of good depts. and ORU is, well, ORU... state regents seem to regard Tulsa as a cash cow-- no research institutions here to take away from OU, OSU and NSU-- heck, even OCU has a Tulsa branch. 2) Jobs--Tulsa's attempt at economic diversification in the 80s turned it into a call center mecca-- TVGuide, Worldcom, etc. gave the job markets a boost only to be in a free fall these days. Teacher pay is pathetic. 3) Travel-- It's turnpike hell (pay to go NE to Joplin, SW to OKC, SE to Muskogee and NW to OSU in Stillwater and Ponca City). Surprising traffic problems for a city its size. Also has the same problem as OKC for airfares (not a hub). Must take car EVERYWHERE... 4) the God Squad-- it's a bird! it's a plane!... no it's SUPERCHURCH! In this self proclaimed "buckle of the bible belt" --at least 3 pray TV channels and pray commercials every morning during station breaks for Good Morning America-- saying "darn" at work could result in disciplinary action. --Problem one needs to be solved by turning Tulsa Community College into a REAL degree granting institution... and where some feel resources have been squandered, I say the populated SE side needs facilities like the ones you condemn... other cities the same size as Tulsa have PACs at universities and not downtown... the fact that this one is smaller than the PAC downtown tells me somebody may have actually been thinking for a change. And I'd like to see some new groups in the Tulsa arts community... some of the organizations you've mentioned have been around my entire life and have monopolized the blue bloods for far too long. And, yes, I'd go downtown but I need a reason why I should drive the one way streets with street lights at every block when I get the same types of places at Utica Square, Cherry Street, Brookside... I don't think downtown is dying-- I just think it closes after dark (not unlike the financial districts in the big cities of Chicago and NYC). I am comfortable with this and feel gentrification of this area is actually a good thing-- as long as "Ed & Darlene's" tax $$$ are not being used to subsidize it. It's funny that I'm accused of not wanting to help "fix" downtown when it sounds like you wouldn't put a plugged nickel into any project involving the SE side other than some access roads to accomodate the increased traffic at the new Krispy Cremes --New mayor LaFortune has a difficult job to do... and if he's learned anything from his uncle he'll come up with proposals recognizing where people actually live and not where he wishes they'd live...
Although much of that was 15-20 years ago, I do understand that there are legitimate reasons for mistrust. I'd also say that the "Oil bust" had a little to do with the failure as well. Old wounds die hard, and they should be learned from, not forgotten. Your fair assessment of the past attempts shows me that Tulsa has always had a tendency to divide itself more than it really should. I do agree that any successful revitalization will need to take the needs of all Tulsans into account. (Hopefully the "Telecom bust" won't kill any chance.) I fully agree. I thought both the Tulsa Project and the Tulsa Project Tries Again, were porked up, poorly conceived pieces of trash that deserved to get voted down. I don't think Tulsa is exactly neglecting the development of south Tulsa, though. The addition of hotels and another few blocks of "Woodland Hills" suggest that it is developing itself. As for traffic... It's like mini-Houston out there. The more lanes they build, the worse it gets. It's very hard to develop unique character in a series of strip malls. Not impossible, but hard. Cherry St. and Brookside have been successful, although both seem to be struggling a bit judging by the For Lease signs, I'm afraid. The problem is that these are pockets of character separated by residential areas that are unlikely to budge. I agree with you on all four... although I'd say 2-4 are statewide city problems. (add geographic isolation too.) But there are still limits to how far that is likely to go. I can't think of too many community colleges that have ever been taken too seriously outside of those communities. I see some potential in OSU's Greenwood campus, but that is iffy at best. I don't see any likely solution to this overall problem, frankly. As for PACs... what cities are you thinking of? Most comparable cities I can think of have downtown performing arts facilities. Again, the problem I see is not that TCC built a concert hall... That would be great if they designed it to accomodate the best artists available, which, IMO, they failed to do. And you might just get your wish. The Ballet, Opera, and Phil are all on the ropes. (Historically not the first time, but it may be the last.) If they fade and perhaps die, it will be pretty much impossible to attract any quality talent to live here, and combining it with the teacher pay you mentioned, there will be no one qualified to develop locally produced talent. I don't think these organizations should be all that is considered "ART" in Tulsa by any means (God, no!), but if they die, they take a lot with them. As for monopolizing blue bloods... the budgets for these 3 organizations are really smaller than those in other comparably sized cities. The organizations themselves have gone to great lengths to change and reach out to ALL of Tulsa, but it may be that it is too late... although LaFortune does seem to be focusing a lot of his talk on this city's arts as a key in attracting economic growth. Hopefully the social barriers will die with the generations. Hopefully it's not too late to develop arts for ALL of Tulsa. I look at other cities like Denver and Indy that used to have desolate boring 9-5 weekday downtowns that were famous for their unattractiveness. The cities transformed over time and now both are hopping and vibrant. I just don't see this shutdown that exists as the only possibility. So far, I'm seeing no shortage of development on the SE side. I'd consider lending my nickels to anything, but so far I've heard or seen no mention by you or anyone else asking. What development do you want that isn't already happening? (and frankly, I don't understand the Krispy Creme thing... Those things are in every truck stop on the east coast. They're just donuts, folks.) Seriously... what development do you envision for the Southeast? Just because people live elsewhere doesn't mean they don't want to improve their options. The main topic of debate in the mayor's race was not whether or not downtown/riverparks should be improved... it was on how. LaFortune won because he convinced voters that he could actually unite people to finally get things done. If only down/midtown Tulsans thought this was important for the future of the city, he would not have won such a clear victory. I don't envy the job... especially with the budget/economic situation he's walked into...but I sure hope he succeeds.
more than that, if you actually ever went there (sounds like you didnt); the best import stores were there as well as Tulsas only art house movie theatre and a few killer restaraunts. and the ice was rad, i went there almost every month while it was still open; too bad the burbenites think its "just too far and too crime ridden in downtown"...balblabla... i dont get it. so, culture is just something Tulsans cant harbor? ( i know that allready, thats why i moved). It's either Sizzler or bust? Chimis or forget it? yeah, i was very anti aquatics and t&f project, very dumb idea. But is there something that a SE tulsan thinks is reasonable for downtown development? And regarding the "terrible traffic conditions at 71st and memorial", you're talking about an overbloated area of commercialization that should be ample evidence for more development in another area not in focusing more on the same are. the 71st and memorial intersection is now near 10 lanes on both 71st and memorial, with four double left turn lanes and four protected right turn lanes. what more do the burb kids in their parents SUVs and the trophy/godfearing wives with their cell phones need? a ************ing interstate that drops them off in the Woodland Hells parking lot? Why would you spend more money on an area that is allready overcrowded rather than develop another area? regarding central location, it is if you look at the school district divisions (tax divisions as well). well, TCC is about as good a C.C. in the country and the OSU-Tulsa, OU-Tulsa, Langston-Tulsa and NSU-Tulsa branches are slowley gaining more and more students. And when the B.A. thing opens up... TU's only fault is it's price but its much more leinant on Tulsans who apply. Yep, and now with Williams selling off their pipeline to save the rest of the company (stupidest idea ever), it may only get worse. its not too bad, the toll to OKC is both ways, remember, and since the state gives squat for maintaince of roads in NE Oklahoma, what you gonna do? The muskogee turnpike is only like 75 cents, the one to Joplin is getting insane but the WORST is going to Fayetville on 410, almost $2.00 for 40 minute drive. Airfare wise, it gets better fares than OKC since AA and Delta (?) have repair hubs in Tulsa and Tulsa has more direct flights than OKC. Public transportation is a joke, but what do you expect when there is seriously a bus route that goes from 56 st. n. all the way out to Woodland Hell. Bus runs, what, once ever 35 minutes? thats a joke, they need to realise that people are going to have to walk a little to have better public transit, make the busses run on ONE MAJOR CITY STREET ONLY, like all other sensical US cities. see, this is another reason i left but it's very funny because the God people in Tulsa act like ordained mafia types when in their packs but are spineless turds when alone and ORU students can not, and this is dead honest truth, form an intellectual argument for any of the tennants of christianity without refrencing the bible. anybody want to know what USRufnex is on about here, check this bit of scary out: http://www.victorytulsa.org I dont see why Tulsa should reward the SE people who jerk their money out of Tulsa Public Schools along with their kids, there by perpetuating EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in tulsa. it all goes back to the underfunded education and its those suburbs that you want to rewards fault. that said, i may have done the same thing in their situation but not to the degree that they've allowed to take it. Art wise, check out the TAC and some of the new gallaries in Brady as well as TU's art shows (a few on South Boston as well); there is some very good stuff popping up. see, but why should Ben and Raechel's tax dollars from the central part of the city NOT be used to improve downtown and instead to tac on another lane to the 71st street amobea? why do the people who pretend to have more money by living in subdivisions get priority over real tulsans? i think the mentality that you are pushing up is what spawned the WorldComm/TV Guide fiascos by playing into stupid Tulsa Southern "we're rich with connections" schemes. After 15 years of pouring money into SE Tulsa, fuckin-A I want a change of venue for Tulsa tax dollars. Why not put a SSS on the fairgrounds? Thats not Downtown. The place has a ton of land in the heart of the city and is not 1/3rd as dingy of a neighborhood as OKC's fairgrounds. god damned right i dont want another nickel going SE; it's high time that government stops catering to wealth and starts to improve the whole! look at enron! (laugh), but people live all over the place, hombre, not just in SE tulsa; in fact, North and central tulsa is much more dense in population than SE Tulsa but I suppose we shouldnt spend any money there because their poor, right? You SE Tulsa people only "know" three things about Tulsa north of 15th street: 1) you'll be killed by the first black man you see 2) no one has a job and no one pays taxes 3) thats where you go when Jenks needs to recruit a new running back (Keywan Jones should have gone to McClain, fyi) Time to spread the money, guys; its not as if all that ************ out at 71st and hell just POPPED UP without city money. Dont you think it's time money went somewhere else than to the burbs?
Originally posted by benine more than that, if you actually ever went there (sounds like you didnt) why, yes I did... quite a few times, actually ; the best import stores were there as well as Tulsas only art house movie theatre and a few killer restaraunts. Yes, import stores and trendy, pricey, specialty restaurants... that's a good way to spend Joe Tulsans tax $$$... I'm sure he was impressed by the valet who parked his pickup truck. and the ice was rad, i went there almost every month while it was still open; too bad the burbenites think its "just too far and too crime ridden in downtown"...balblabla... nope, just inconvenient and highly unwelcoming... i dont get it. so, culture is just something Tulsans cant harbor? ( i know that allready, thats why i moved). It's either Sizzler or bust? Chimis or forget it? ... an upscale steakhouse or texmex restaurant might do the trick... why are the cultural elite so OBSESSED with any culture except their own... you ashamed of "down home cookin'" yeah, i was very anti aquatics and t&f project, very dumb idea. But is there something that a SE tulsan thinks is reasonable for downtown ...Why would you spend more money on an area that is allready overcrowded rather than develop another area? I don't know... MAYBE SOMEBODY SHOULD ASK THEM!!! ... to give that area an identity. The answers civic leaders keep coming up with is to give special projects to downtown/Riverside... a few crumbs to the northside and ALL-THE-ROADS-YOU-CAN-EAT to the southeast... well, TCC is about as good a C.C. in the country and the OSU-Tulsa, OU-Tulsa, Langston-Tulsa and NSU-Tulsa Talk about the squandering of resources: a state-of-the-art community college (sounds like an oxymoron) and a bunch of $$$ sucking extension campuses... how bout a "Tulsa State?" its not too bad, the toll to OKC is both ways I now live in OKC... no toll on I-35 to Dallas or north to Wichita... or straight east on I-40 or west to eat that free 72 oz steak in Amarillo... but Tulsa's gonna cost ya' Bus runs, what, once ever 35 minutes? thats a joke, they need to realise that people are going to have to walk a little to have better public transit, make the busses run on ONE MAJOR CITY STREET ONLY, like all other sensical US cities. ummm... they run every 35 mins in Chicago, too, dude (usually 2 at a time) see, this is another reason i left but it's very funny because the God people in Tulsa act like ordained mafia types when in their packs http://www.victorytulsa.org The evangelistic assoc's (ORU--aka "Six Flags Over Jesus," Rhema, Faith Fellowships, etc.) seem to have been much more effective in attracting out-of-staters to Tulsa than any downtown project ever dreamed of... hmmm... I dont see why Tulsa should reward the SE people who jerk their money out of Tulsa Public Schools along with their kids, there by perpetuating EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in tulsa. it all goes back to the underfunded education and its those suburbs that you want to rewards fault. that said, i may have done the same thing in their situation but not to the degree... blah, blah, blah... Evidently your "art galleries" only employ people who paint with a "broad stroke." SE Tulsa is NOT a suburb-- Hale, East Central, and Memorial are TPS... if a kid comes home from school a couple of times with a bloody nose, can you blame parents for sending their kids to Union? Do these actions perpetuate EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM IN TULSA? I think not. Besides, who talked about rewarding suburbs? Ever travelled east on 86th or 96th St.N in Owasso? Beautiful homes... death-trap roads... Do any Tulsa suburbs have fully fledged universities like Edmond or Norman? Has Tulsa ever talked about building a taxpayer financed stadium in a suburb? The answer has always been NO... so please shuddup. see, but why should Ben and Raechel's tax dollars from the central part of the city NOT be used to improve downtown and instead to tac on another lane to the 71st street amobea? why do the people who pretend to have more money by living in subdivisions get priority over real tulsans? I know Ben and Raechel. Aren't they the upscale yuppie couple that drive that eco-friendly Honda S-U-V ? I heard they got a great deal on this huge house in Heritage Hills here in OKC and all sorts of tax subsidies in securing the loan. Then they got more local/federal $$$ by registering the house (built in **gasp** 1947) as a historical landmark. Heard they did the same thing to their old home in the Cherry Street area back in Tulsa and are now getting tax subsidies for the start-up costs for their oh-so-exclusive Bed & Breakfast (I convined them to start serving Starbucks but I'll save that story for another post). Are these the REAL Tulsans of which you speak? i think the mentality that you are pushing up is what spawned the WorldComm/TV Guide fiascos by playing into stupid Tulsa Southern "we're rich with connections" schemes. After 15 years of pouring money into SE Tulsa, fuckin-A I want a change of venue for Tulsa tax dollars. Why not put a SSS on the fairgrounds? Thats not Downtown. The place has a ton of land in the heart of the city and is not 1/3rd as dingy of a neighborhood as OKC's fairgrounds. First you accuse SE Tulsans of being stupid. Then you accuse them of causing Tulsa's problems. Then you accuse them of being accountants for Worldcom... then you accuse them of being **gasp** suburban... you're all over the map in the blame game, son. god damned right i dont want another nickel going SE; it's high time that government stops catering to wealth and starts to improve the whole! I'll tell Ben & Raechel you won't be attending their Yankee Candle and Potpouri fundraiser for the Historical Society next week at Southroads... You SE Tulsa people only "know" three things about Tulsa north of 15th street: 1) you'll be killed by the first black man you see Another broad stroke by the artist formerly known as... 2) no one has a job and no one pays taxes Now, that one's true, buddy... Ben & Raechel told me that one and they're not even from SE Tulsa! 3) thats where you go when Jenks needs to recruit a new running back (Keywan Jones should have gone to McClain, fyi) ummm... first, if you're gonna accuse me and my SE Tulsa brothas and sistahs of being card carrying bigots, please learn to spell McLain (now re-named TSST)... second, don't you think Keywan and his family should take some responsibility for their actions or are you just jealous he didn't go to Booker T?... third, if SE Tulsa is so rich and powerful, how come he didn't go to Memorial or Union? Finally, did anybody teach you geography? Jenks is not in SE Tulsa and nowhere near Woodland Hills Mall... Time to spread the money, guys; its not as if all that ************ out at 71st and hell just POPPED UP without city money. Dont you think it's time money went somewhere else than to the burbs? For the last time, SE Tulsa is NOT the burbs. Roads and lights, etc. were added AFTER the area became highly developed, NOT BEFORE. The BA expressway had just 2 lanes for years/decades and Hwy 169 only went southbound to 21st St. Traffic was insane. It still is. Go to 21st and Garnett around 11pm on a Sat. night (Executive Mall) and you'll see the need for a youth center. Tulsa's downtown projects can be supported by everyone ONLY IF EVERYONE is included. OKC's bricktown has some smaller trendier places, some larger upscale restaurants... and a HOOTERS... Tulsa not only has been divided into different parts of town racially, it's also been very divided socially, and that, I think, is a much bigger factor than crime or racism as to why many Tulsans won't support upscale improvement projects for downtown... most have never felt welcome there... If I win the lotto someday, I'm gonna buy a stiff drink for the entire city of Tulsa in hopes that it kills the bug up their a$$es... and I'll use the rest to build a SSS on the fairgrounds.
19 Nichols Hills Tulsans are all the same/always have to feel they are better/elite, well here is your answer you bunch of nincompoops/hillbillies- Nichols Hills is the reason- richer, better and 90,000 avg income/when you live in million dollar mansions you start to have an understanding of what it is like here-Oh and Norman is OKC- 10-15 min drive to the greatest univ. in OKLAHOMA/we also SHARE OSU. Who bought the Sonics/and Hornets dying to stay? answer=Nichols Hills and surrounding small/large subs, cities and businesses(you think all of OKC is the southside?). Bunch of hills you cant hike and no brains=tulsa. Oh, utica square/lovely tulips-hah,POLO store/give me a break. Tulsa is a condensed city and doesnt include all of the nasty areas/lower population(350 to 550) has a lot to do with median income-I have seen all of tulsa-cute little suburb/explains the slight difference in the “median income”. Get over it tulsans-no major interstate=no money. Do your homework and play catch up/tulsa is just a nice name.I was actually happy when tulsa FINALLY supported a “maps” like project- have a lot of freinds in the so called green country-they would be disgusted over the remarks you give my great City- because they have actually spent some time here and were always impressed-TIMES ARE CHANGING, GET USED TO IT. LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD. river/southern hills nice-but not enough to cut it. Bye,Bye
You've decided to revive a thread from 4 years ago... cool. The fact that you're upset over the fact you've been disrespected as a Nichols Hills elitist speaks VOLUMES. Thanks for the memories, dip$hit... --Ruf
Well first of all, you don't really build a SSS for a USL D-3 team. You are right, Brent, that there was a USL D3 team in Tulsa (currently the USL calls it second division)... OKC never had one of these, BTW. I don't know all the details, but part of the city proposed "Tulsa Project" for 1997 would've actually provided sales tax money for construction of a 5,000 seat downtown soccer stadium (if memory serves, the stadium would've had a track around it?!?). This was part of a strange laundry list of downtown-centric construction that was ultimately defeated by a citywide vote. If the Tulsa Project had passed, word was there had been some sort of agreement to line up ownership for an A-league team (USL First Div). Since it didn't pass, the Tulsa Roughnecks were re-born (or as we say here in the Bible belt, "born again") as a D3 team... The new Roughnecks played from '97 - '99 and drew around 1100 fans per game the first couple of years.... but I'm pretty sure the '99 team only drew in the hundreds after moving to East Central HS stadium.... After that team dissolved, it was replaced by the USL W-League's Oklahoma Outrage... http://www.soccertimes.com/directory/usisl/w-2/outrage.htm ...an exhibition game in 2001 against the New York WUSA team in Broken Arrow drew over 4,000 fans... Bottom line: Comparing the USL D-3 Tulsa Roughnecks to the NASL version or any potential MLS version is like comparing hamburger helper to a nice, juicy ribeye steak......
Thank you for the information Sorry to find out that Tulsa has no high level soccer anymore because didn t a MLS exhibition game a few years ago draw like 15 000 fans to Skelly Stadium?
The Southwest Indoor Soccer League started in the fall of 1986 as a modest, five-team circuit in the American south-southwest region. By the end of the 20th century it would grow to become United Soccer Leagues, a wide-ranging multi-divisional organization of leagues that encompassed a major portion of the American professional soccer scene. The league was founded in Dallas by Francisco Marcos, originally designed both to provide a new source of income for arena operators, and also to provide a feeder system to develop talent for the Major Indoor Soccer League. Marcos stressed the importance of grass-roots player development as being the essential component for establishing a solid foundation on which to develop professional soccer in the US. Hence, the league focused on a bottom-up, rather than top-down development plan. Marcos witnessed first hand the pitfalls of high-stakes big budget tactics during his ten years in the North American Soccer League and was determined not to repeat this mistake. The league also fit in well geographically - with the AISA concentrated in the Midwest, the SISL in the Southwest, and the MISL along the east and west coasts, the leagues did not overlap too much. The league had five teams for its first season, the Albuquerque Outlaws, Amarillo Challengers, Garland Genesis, Lubbock Lasers and Oklahoma City Warriors. The league standings for this first season are not currently available, but the Garland Genesis won the championship match 7-2 over Lubbock. Lone Star Soccer Alliance 1987 Dallas Express 1988 Dallas Mean Green 1989 Austin Thunder 1990 Oklahoma City Spirit 1991 F. C. Dallas 1992 Dallas Inter USL I-League 1986-87 Addison Arrows 1987-88 Oklahoma city Warriors 1988-89 Lubbock Lazers 1989-90 Addison Arrows 1990-91 Colorado Comets 1991-92 Oklahoma City Warriors 1992-93 Atlanta Magic 1993-94 Atlanta Magic 1994-95 Atlanta Magic 1995-96 Baltimore Bays 1996-97 Baltimore Bays 1997-98 Baltimore Bays The Oklahoma Warriors were a soccer club based in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma that competed in the SISL and USISL. Before the 1993 outdoor season, the club was renamed the Oklahoma City Slickers. A team in Oklahoma City as an outdoor team through 1998.
semi-pro outfits that attracted fans by the dozens.... I went to some of the Slickers' games at Taft Stadium... YAWN.
Didn't Tulsa have an indoor team sometime around then that played in the Fairgrounds? I went to those as a kid, they were pretty fun. Btw, I saw in the Tulsa World that Tulsan's tend to better off than people in OKC. In terms of housing value and wages. I'll find the article in nessicary. But I don't imagine 'nicholshills' will be reappearing.