MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Here is one from March. Can we compare this one?

     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It is baffling to me why posters like you (almost always MLS fans) simply find it hard to acknowledge a simple truth that players in better leagues are by and large better than those in lesser leagues. It’s not f***ing difficult to understand.

    It’s been that way since I joined this board (years before you).
     
  3. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    You're one of those people guilty of assuming that everyone else conforms to your very silly, one-dimensional strawman depictions of their thought process. You see, I shouldn't have to point this out if you and other posters didn't repeatedly, time and again make use "but Newcastle!" "but BL1!" "but Ajax!" in response to legitimate observations about players, their play, and their comparative value and use in our program.
     
    tomásbernal repped this.
  4. In the Orange team that did beat Germany away with 2-4 of the 14 that made the pitch, 9 have a past in that league!
    Also superstars started there like Ruud van Nistelrooij.
    According to this Dutch article those players had played a total of 213 matches in that league.
    https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/oranje-had-in-hamburg-213-kkd-duels-in-de-benen~a7230e3f/
    How important that league is, see also my post in the Ledezma thread about it, is shown by this quote:

    ,,Spelen in de eerste divisie is voor jonge jongens zeer bepalend’', stelt Marcel Brands. De huidige directeur van Everton voerde eerder als PSV-directeur campagne voor toetreding van de ‘Jong-teams’ tot de eerste divisie. Brands liet ook onderzoek doen en leerde daaruit: ,,Gemiddeld 75 procent van de spelers die de laatste acht halen van de Champions League, speelde op hun 18de seniorenvoetbal.’’

    "Playing in the first division (in the Netherlands the second tier is called first division as the top tier has a name ;fsf) is very determinative for young boys," argues Marcel Brands. The current director of Everton previously campaigned as PSV director for the "Young teams" to join the first division. Brands also had research done and it learned him: "On average, 75 percent of the players who make it to the last eight of the Champions League played on their 18th senior football."
     
  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The only observations I recall you making are one-sided criticisms of yedlin and brooks as not world class. I don’t recall you comparing them to the unproven options but didn’t go looking for it. Not sure how that qualifies as legitimate as it sounds like a tighter version of JuveChelsea’s ramblings that level of club play isn’t a major indicator of a USMNT pool player’s ability and slagging the relatively small number of players who compete and play at a major league level every day.
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You don’t seem to understand the difference between the following:

    1. players on a mid-table teams who get regular minutes
    2. Players on top 30 teams who only play for their Academy/reserve teams

    Kenny Cooper, olosunde and zelalem clearly fit into the second bracket which you are using to discredit the first one. Why don’t you find actual players in the first bucket to prove your point?

    Next, I never said that “club stamp of approval” means something - Ive consistently said that getting regular minutes at a major league club IS a very strong signifier of a player’s ability for the USMNT. You’re the one who isn’t understanding a pretty simple point.

    I will happily take the L if you can show that I’ve been espousing Academy/reserve players as a rule for USMNT rosters. If you look at the 2022 roster thread, you will actually see that I pull out those exact players and explicitly say that it’s hard to compare them to players getting time.

    I’ll again ask the questions: do you acknowledge that you were wrong when you said that

    1. Kenny Cooper got a national team cap because he received first team minutes at ManU

    2. Historically, USMNT players who got reasonable minutes for Big 4 teams were starters for the USMNT.
     
  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Ugh, looks like one of the most promising player in your list is staying in MLS.

    Aaron Long --> Wolves/Leicester (already thought he'd end up in EPL b4 GC)
    Reggie Cannon --> mid table EPL w/ initial loan until he qualifies for WP
    Paxton Pomykal --> Leverkusen/BMG (SIGNED FOR FCD)
    Nick Lima --> Hertha BSC (sounded like training there went well)
    Walker Zimmerman --> Frankfurt/Freiburg

    I'm hoping Cannon tries to up his game out of the remainder. Any thoughts on which different player could make the switch to the majors instead (I don't really care about lateral moves)?
     
    TCS35 repped this.
  8. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can you at least let this go through the offseason until you update the progress?

    Circumstances change, like w/ Pomykal getting injured, derailing his momentum.

    And extending a player doesn't automatically preclude a move. It can make it easier actually, because if they go into the last year or two of a contract, prospective new clubs will just wait to try and acquire them on a free.

    As I said, this was meant to be an example of what the offseason could look like, not a hyper-specific prediction. A couple different players could move off a national team boost. Miles Robinson just extended, but he could also make the transfer. Or it could be the likes of Morris, Roldan, etc.
     
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  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Duke,

    My post was not meant as a criticism of your post at all - your post was quite helpful and I use it as a guidepost for up-and-coming players that MLS has developed and who have elite ambition.

    I won't ping you if you don't want to revisit until the offseason but I think this is very important for the USMNT both in the short and long term. My fervent hope is that we see a rising trend where the young players who stay in MLS get good training and then rise to a higher level.

    Maybe I should move this to the transfer thread if the location is an issue
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [moved]

    538 has the following:
    • championship ranked between 73 and 414 (median of 199)
    • MLS between 111 and 534 (median 313)
    • B2 between 185 and 490 (median 407)
    Are they exactly overlapping? Nah but that's a pretty reasonable bracket for MLS IMO.
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    moved

    the players I mentioned (Altidore, long, cannon, arriola, Morris, pomykal, Hyndman, Nagbe, Lima) are mostly likely bench players for 2022 as well with maybe a couple that will get a start here or there or will prove themselves in a major league before then (pomykal, cannon, long, lima).
     
  12. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Hopefully Long can make his "long" awaited move this winter. Do you have rumors for the other guys?
     
  13. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    This winter, I just wanna see Johnson and Gonzalez maybe also with Matt Turner. Maybe throw Klinsmann a bone and bring him as well.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I've got nothing but perhaps @adam tash does as he led the summer transfer thread? I'd be bummed if we had no USMNT transfers to the majors during the winter window.
     
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  15. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are going to use 538 just compare the SPIs of the teams in the leagues. The SPI is designed to be used in comparisons.

    Comparing MLS and Championship; LAFC would slot in at #3 in the combined league but 12 of the first 13 teams would all be Championship. Only 4 of the first 22 would be MLS! That is not a sign of equivalent leagues.

    Champ Champ ATL Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ Champ NYCFC Champ Champ Champ Champ PHI Champ Champ TFC ...

    MLS and BL2 are closer but MLS is clearly ahead with only 2 of the first 3, 3 of the first 11, and 5 of the first 17 from BL2.

    MLS STUT HSV MLS MLS MLS MLS MLS MLS MLS HAN MLS MLS MLS MLS ARM NUR MLS MLS MLS MLS MLS REG ...
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Close enough for me. We are bracketed between Championship and B2. Not sure there's enough room to differentiate - this isn't EPL/B1 vs. Champ/B2. YMMV.
     
  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The difference between BuLi and Championship is somewhat similar to the difference between Championship and MLS

    BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi LEED FULH BuLi BuLi BuLi BuLi WEST BRENT BuLi BuLi BuLi ...
     
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  18. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Impossible really to compare leagues.
    Its up to the USMNT staff to bring in everybody and test them side-by-side.

    The horrible truth that we're learning is that our USMNT staff believes that some of the guys they fielded last night were their best options. Horrible truth #2 is that in some positions they might be right.
     
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    nah sorry. I have been focused on other things lately....(seems I haven´t mised much, either...reading the latest match reports!)

    ...never thought my interest in the USMNT could get this low.....
     
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Long isnt going anywhere. They wanted $15M for him after the GC and his stock keeps dropping. He is a decent athlete who doesnt read the game well and is afraid of the ball at his feet. I doubt he ever reaches the level of interest he had this summer. Just another over hyped flash in the pan MLSer.

    There is a much better chance that a similarly aged Alvardo will move to Europe. It is a shame that Berhalter continues to ignore him. He thinks we are so good that he doesnt need to look at the captain of the best team in Liga MX.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I agree that comparing leagues is a waste of time. Unfortunately, Berhalter has ignored a decent portion of our pool and cant pick the best players after seeing them side by side... Miazga is clearly better than Long. That was easily seen in the GC final.

    Outside of Steffen, Mckennie, Pulisc and Sargent, I'm not so sure. Maybe Morris and Yedlin, but none of the rest. Just replacing Bradley with Morales would have made a huge difference.
     
  22. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'm sure some PL or Bundesliga club will lowball MLS for him and I'm sure Long will do all he can to secure an exit.

    Any chance he might even have a shot with Red Bull Salzburg?
     
  23. Cubanlix63

    Cubanlix63 Member

    AFC Ajax
    Feb 19, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    He is already way too old for Salzburg. They usually scour the globe for talents and sign them really young. No chance they would be interested even with Marsch there.
     
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  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Miazga has also had poor games recently for the USMNT.
    There's a reason he plays for one of the worst teams in the Championship.
    And he had a horrid time when he went to France last season.

    The best USMNT centerback is John Brooks. When he is "on," he's Bundesliga caliber. It just seems like he's hurt and unavailable an awful lot.

    The truth is that starting XI we used in Canada was more than good enough to win several times over. Michael Bradley and Christian Roldan are both better soccer player than Liam Fraser, who they were facing in the midfield. Its the coaching, tactics, etc. that are the problem. Berhalter is not putting these players in a position to win regardless of who they are.
     
  25. Why isnot Erik given a chance?
     

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