Tactics only work when all, or at least the majority of the players know what's happening. You can be well versed in tactics, but if you're the only one on the pitch it doesnot help. So when I described what I saw when watching mls matches it was about players who are good enough to play in Europe, but not executing a plan. What I saw was pure reacting on the situation at hand on the pitch. There was no reaction throughout the whole team when the opponent got the ball by reformating the line up. Your remark about not caring about tactics and Carlos Vela and Diego Rossi isnot a very good one. The first thing the Eerste divisie team tactically would do is to make as much as possible sure both donot get the ball. Doesnot mean they would defeat the Vela/Diego team, but not caring about tactics is a sure way to be surprised in a bad way.
I think this is right and it is quickly changing for the better. The formula in MLS was always, get some clearly better foreign talent and surround it with workhorse, cheap, American veterans who would do the dirty work and let the foreign talent win the games. Especially in the playoffs, the existence of which lets teams coast through the regular season. Tactics were basic and everything was working harder and running more. American coaches from the era (as coaches and players) are still trying to do this formula. Arena has done it in NE, Armas tried to it in NY, Olsen did it in DC, Petke in RSL, and on. This approach has largely failed recently. Playoffs are crazy, so maybe one of these basic tactical try hard teams will win. However, lately money has won the playoffs and young tactically adept teams the Shield.
MLS teams would beat Eerstedivisie teams. MLS is not the tactical mess you portray, though there are certainly teams that aren't great. And it's a much more wide open league, partially because it's more athletic and the teams rely more on that than being structured to create. But if you are measuring the strength of a league, who wins the game is important. Simply watching and liking the structure more of your league isn't a real measure; it really just smacks of "I like the way my country plays the sport."
This just reinforces that the US culture is still very much about about winning the game in front of them and not about developing players to actually compete with the best in the world. Is it insecurity that has many MLS focused on trying to "measure the strength of leagues? Again, buying foreign players to prop up the average strength of the league isn't a complete path to creating a strong league. MLS teams could learn a lot from the second division in the Netherlands.
More than half of the league is less than 10 years old, with 4 more new clubs coming on board in the next several years. It takes a while to construct a development culture. These clubs are generations younger than clubs in Holland. The clubs that have been doing it a while now (FCD, NYRB, LAG, PHI, etc.) are certainly working to develop players and move them abroad. Adams. Richards. Aaronson. Cannon. NYCFC's recent sale of Scally was another great sign. Like Chris Richards, they sold him before he'd ever actually played a game for the club. McKenzie will likely go in January. There are rumors that Caden Clark already has a pathway to Europe mapped out with the RB organization. For the long-term sustainability of the league, its a must. Right now the league is bringing in tons of money with expansion fees. That will eventually stop.
Haha.. That didn't take long. The infancy of teams ignores that outside a few expansion teams, the franchuses and league had no idea what they were doing when they started. There some who still don't. There are many who couldnt care less about developing players. I wish you guys were a bit more level headed and could just accept where the league and clubs are. You write long posts trying give perspectives and then go around cheeleading FCD. If you read your posts, you would have no idea how early FCD is in their journey to be a development club. The best than that can be said is they are one of the best of absolutely horrible competition. You dont have to tell me how young the league is and where it is at. I see it very clearly. You should be lecturing your fellow die hard MLS fans. They are the ones are continuously comparing MLS to other leagues for the sole purpose of propping up the league. My suggestion was if they are going to do those comparisons, it should about specific things to figure out what the league is doing well and what they could improve on. They dont want to do that because then they couldn't just cheerlead.
OF course they don't know what they're doing!!!!!!! Its not an excuse. Its reality. Ajax is 120 years old. They're generations ahead of Atlanta United, who is three years old. What should our expectations for Atlanta be? That they clicked their heels and had a bunch of youth products to play immediately at an MLS level? How? They folded in a couple of existing youth clubs in Georgia to get their hands on Bello and Carleton. They didn't develop them. We talk about FCD because they invest more in this than anybody. And the results are coming for them. They make a huge investment in player development in the US and abroad. I don't think most realize how much they invest in this internationally as well as domestically. They literally run three clubs outside the US focused on player development. https://www.bigdsoccer.com/2020/1/4/21043742/fc-dallas-academy-international-puerto-ricomexico
This is amazing to me. Can you walk me through the mental gymnastics you’ve done to explain how FCD doesn’t develop players and their players have less tactical understanding than kids in Holland, yet Cannon walks into a staring spot with Boavista and plays every minute this year?
Where did I say FCD doesn't develop players? I am not aware of a way prove more or less tactical understanding of young players. I have no idea how tactical of a system Boavista play. Id guess it is less than PSV??? I know for a fact that FCD plays a significantly less tactical system than PSV. I'd guess that Ledezma has a learned a lot in his two years there. My observation from watching Ledezma play is that he had good understanding of their system. Is it really that big of a leap that the player who plays in much more tactical system would have a higher tactical understanding of the game What? What can you point to that suggests Cannon is on that same level? I don't see what playing at Boavista has to do with this, unless Cannon is playing a sophisticated role in a sophisticated system. One last thought... we do know that Cannon didn't play in the 2019 January games because he struggled to grasp the concepts of the RB tucking into the central midfield.
Thank you for the insight; it’s astounding how you can reason it out. I’m pretty sure you are on here talking BS about how MLS can’t develop players. Maybe I’m mistaken. Are you saying MLS teams are developing players or not? I thought you jumped on board that MLS teams are not tactical and that European teams are. Boavista are in Europe. Maybe the kids in Holland are way ahead of the kids in Portugal? All I know is a player from FCD was tactically astute enough to step right in and play all the minutes the Portuguese club has played so far. We watched TA do the same thing at NYRB. Your last thing is funny too. Cannon doesn’t play inside because he can’t understand the tactics, it’s because he doesn’t have the skill set to play in there. Cannon is suited to play out wide where the space is.
You posts are so tiresome. It appears as if you are "calling BS" just for the hell of it. My views on MLS development of players have been clear and consistent. The US (including MLS academies) began developing better youth players 5ish years ago. I have been very critical of the league being able to get these youth prospects to top professionals. NYRB did a great job of moving players to get Adams into his best position to develop. After losing players to europe for nothing, they improved their offers and began to play kids more. In the last year or two, some teams have improved significantly at developing young professionals. I think they still have a long way to go and think many of these young players are overhyped. Hopefully they prove me wrong. I dont see any reason to to think that. I was specifically talking the netherlands vs MLS. The mention of Ledezma was that he haf been drilled on it for years and his understanding has improved significantly over that period. He didnt have it from the first few games he played. Your argument about Cannon playing at Boavista is silly as it is just a handful of games and you actually describe him as a limited player who is only "suited to play outside where the space is". You also have proven anything about the tactics Boavista employs. Your logic would extend to Mckennie being prepared tactically to play at Juventus. It is clear he wasnt. He is playing and learning on the job. Yeah, it is really funny. The way you describe him, he doesn't seem that tactically astute at all. He sounds like a limited player that can play one position, one way. I couldn't find the article I was looking for, but found this. Notice the words in this quote and what I wrote.... Cannon even said after January camp that he'd never played the position in that way, which was something of a struggle for him. https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019...icting-gregg-berhalters-usmnt-gold-cup-roster
MLS academies use the same philosophy as European academies and in some cases the same coaches, or rather coaches that were brought over from Europe. Ernst Tanner at Philadelphia, Raphael Wicky at Chicago, Gerhardt Struder at the Red Bulls, Jaap Stam at Cincinnati, Ronny Deila at NYCFC and Arnold Rijsenburg at RSL are a handful off the top of my head that have worked with junior teams or led academies in Europe. Then there's the partnership between Dallas and Bayern Munich that has FCD academy players trying out in Germany. The NY City academy is a smaller replica of the Man City academy. It goes on.
] And yet they arent able to completely replicate it. To use Cannon's terminology, the MLS academies aren't "real" academies. From two years ago...
Yup. We're trying to do the same things. We're just newer at it. Much newer at it. So its going to take time to start churning out the players. Some clubs like Philly, RSL, LAG, FCD, etc. are really productive. Or course MLS academies aren't up to the standards of their European counterparts. Who the hell thinks they are? What should people expect? Ajax has a 100 year head start on most clubs in MLS. We talk about FCD a lot, so I won't go there. But Sebastian Soto, RIchie Ledezma, etc. are RSL academy products. Uly Llanez, Alex Mendez, Kobe Hernandez, Haji Wright, etc. are LAG academy products. Its like people think these players sprout from the earth in Europe like cabbage patch kids. No, they're developed in the US until they're 18 (or 16 if they have a passport like Gio Reyna). We're doing good work and putting in the investment. People do realize that the US U20s are back-to-back-to-back U20 World Cup quarterfinalists right? We're back-to-back CONCACAF U20 Champions. Not Mexico. Those are our domestic players. We're just getting started in the player development game, and we're doing pretty damn well. I find the inferiority complex that US fans have about their own programs really bizarre. I don't know where it comes from. Because it runs counter to how Americans behave about everything else.
We are getting off topic. This started when you co-signed the dude from Feyenoord’s crazy statement that MLS teams don’t use tactics. I didn’t respond to his post because in it he shares his ignorance to the league by stating he only watched the MLS is back tournament, so a reasonable poster can easily disregard such a statement. But the way you post about MLS, someone might mistakenly take you as an expert instead of someone that watches a few highlights. As an OC fan who watches all their matches, it’s easy to see and recognize the different tactics they use from game to game. Yesterday’s game against NYCFC, from the wall it was easy to see how NYCFC was using a tactic to funnel our attack into the middle where our mids were run into traps of double and triple teams. GB is constantly being criticized for his system and tactics; he’s an X MLS coach. MLS teams clearly play with tactics. Would you like to disagree? Juve, Schalke, and FCD all may use and play different tactics. It’s understandable that a player that switches from one club to another may need to learn new tactical play. It doesn’t mean his prior club played without tactics. Isn’t this common sense? If you wanna talk about RL or RC, they both have threads already and you can talk with the other experts about them there.
Go back and look at why this thread was started. There were posters who were suggesting players shouldnt be encouraged to leave MLS. It has always been amazing to me that this was a controversial thing. It is so obvious that playing against better competition in higher pressure situations is going to help a player reach his potential. There isnt much you wrote to disagree with or really has much to do with the initial arguments or my recent posts. I will take issue with the idea that "we are doing good work". There are few frachises are doing what is minimum of what should be expected and could be doijg more. Most of the franchises are falling way short. I domt find the lists of players from any of the the clubs you've listed that impressive and many cases the players are the first of that level. A few players with potential from Los Angeles is actually quite embarrassing. People throw out Davies, bu that seems more luck of an incredibly physically gifted player but nothing that they are going to replicate. FCD has shown they can consistently develop players but is the level of talent really that high? I also see people throw around the idea of fans are too insecure. I think that is directed at the wrong people. I think people who recognize that improvements are being made but this country is still way behind the best in world. The logical response to that for someone who wants to compete with the best is look to outside help (which some are doing), encouraging and even helping the best get into better environments, and accepting exactly where the league is in this growth process and pressure them to do even more to improve. I domt find any of that as being insecure. The issue is those who can't accept the where the league is in its growth progress and are constantly making it out to be better than it is. They are the ones that are constantly comparing the average talent of MLS to other around the league. They are the ones that discourage players from moving and throw out nonsense phrases like euro pixie dust and euro snobs. There is nothing magical about it. Every player who leaves explains exactly what it is. Reggie cannon did. Here is the press conference where his quotes come from. I didnt listen to the whole thing be he discusses being in portugal in the first four minutes or so.
Thiago Santos was interviewed the last couple of weeks and asked about the difference between FC Dallas and Palmeiras. He said at Palmeiras they just went out and played while at FCD it was much more tactical. I searched everywhere for the interview but can't find it as it went a bit deeper than that, sorry.
Nobody said MLS plays without any tactics. I have watched more than enough MLS, Eri/Eerstedivisie, and Serie A to know there is huge difference in the amount of tactics employed in the systems in the former versus that latter two. The Netherlands and Italians are well known for developing tactical players. The US, not so much. It is possible you are misinterpreting how we are talking about tactical systems. The dutch sides play in a system where all xi players operating as a unit and each players movement is expected based on how the ball and others move. I have never seen any thing like this in MLS. MLS teams may employ certain tactics at time, but not consistently operating as a unit. Watch Juve play and then an MLS game. There is no way that you won't notice the difference in the level of a tactical system. If this weren't true, then why have so many MLS players st4uggled in Berhalters structured system that is heavily influenced by his time in the Netherlands.
I put the quote (hopefully) right above yours that you repped/co-signed onto. I bold the portion of the quote so you can see the ridiculous statement. The rest of the first paragraph I agree with. I’m well aware, as I would think most soccer fans are of the basic principles of play that all Dutch youth players learn and how the tactics develop from there. Your last paragraph is again odd. Are you claiming that MLS players are unable to understand GB’s tactics but non MLS players are? If you are, what is the reason you are claiming for this?
There's no reason Zardes wouldn't understand Berhalter's tactics. They made him into a much better player. The first round of MLS matches at MLS is back was pretty poor but that's because noone had played for months. But of course MLS teams have tactics, it's how Adams managed to slot straight into RBL's midfield. Btw, De Boer appears to struggle with players who weren't brought up in the Dutch system. He took charge of a team full of South American flair and tried to turn them into workhorses.
Yeah it’s a struggle for youth coaches to figure out just how much input a coach should have. There’s a lot to be said about the power that comes from players figuring out problems on their own. Many times coaches use tactics as a short cut to get wins and mask weaknesses in youth games. Unfortunately many parents choose their teams based on how many tournament wins the club has. So not many youth coaches can afford to take the loses as they wait for the penny to drop and end up solving those problems for their players. Palmerias doesn’t have to worry about parents not trusting their club or looking at youth wins as a way to judge their academy like academies in the US do.
I've read so many times that Brazil serie a isn't a tactical league. It's all out skill and speed. Free flowing. Confess that I've seen very little of it though. That comment makes sense from Santos based on those views of the league. FC Dallas is obviously doing a good job with tactics based on how their studs transition to bigger leagues.
I have no idea why this conversation is continuing. It is if you take this personally, are caught up with how things are said, and come across as defensive. The whole discussion started with yet another former MLS player stating how great the experience has been going abroad (in this case portugal), when i mentioned that I thought the environment Ledezma was in was better for his long term development (relative Cannon, but really a much better comparison to simialrly aged and postion players like aaronson and Pomykal), and defended by statining Cannon is playing foe Boavista (with no context of the tactical requirements and another poster claiming it isnt a tactical league). I wish I hadn't brought up the tactical aspect as it has become a distraction from the original post/point that yet another player agrees with surprisingly controversial opinion that American soccer players should go abroad as soon as they can. I dont see it as controversial at all that the netherlands is on the high end of tactical play and MLS is on the lower end. As for bolded part, I dont know who wouldn't agree with the comment. I have watched tons of MLS games where the offensive tactics have been simplistic if observable, That doesn't mean they are nonexistent. What do you expect when they higher coaches that grew up in a country not known for sophisticated tactics? This is where is simple to remind that the league is 25 yo and had no idea what they were doing during the first 10 years and one of the biggest things they have done to improve the play on the field in the last 15 years is buy some foreign players. The recent trend of some of the teams to hire coaches from outside the US circle has helped and will hopefully continue. The limitations of some players also limit the tactics a coach can employ. Tata is an extremely experienced coach, but at times their plan was reduced to getting the ball to Almiron and Josef. He also devised a very simple role for Nagbe to get the ball, carry it forward and then pass to one of the front four. I am not certain what to say about the non MLS players and Beerhalters system. Very few of them got a chance, but the ones that did look materially better than the MLS players. This is true even though they didnt get a full month training it.. Perhaps that simply came down to them being more talented. There also is a very big difference the tactics the non MLS players clubs employ. Dortmund plays a much more tactical system than Schalke. I would say that Ledezma looked pretty comfortable in his minutes in a role he doesnt normally play.