MLS Drops 'em and bends over for Chivas

Discussion in 'Columbus Crew' started by Bill Archer, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Actually, by the way he's been running his mouth about the negotiations and information that would normally be confidential (i.e. the $6m expansion fee), I think Vergara would be in serious legal trouble if he doesn't go through with the deal.
     
  2. CrewToon

    CrewToon Member

    Jun 13, 1999
    Greenbrier Farm

    I would be surprised if the above does NOT happen.
     
  3. TimD

    TimD Member

    Aug 9, 1999
    Columbus, Ohio, U.S.
    I agree that some day we may all look back on this and laugh. Seriously, it may wind up to be a stroke of absolute genius. Currently what the public is reading about is a bungled mess.

    I stated that it seems is the discussions are fluid at this time. This is normal for a negotiating period. The questions are: how well are communications flowing, are all relevent parties involved in the talks, what concessions have been made so far and by which sides, what is the temperment of all parties during negotiations, for the most part are negotiations face to face of telephonic, who is attending the negotiation sessions (the decision makers or the framework guys). As the public we will not get this information and we should not - it's none of our business.

    What I laid out is a picture of how the information that has come out fits into a fairly standard negotiation scenario. And right now that scenario does not show MLS in the best of lights.

    I also didn't address the idea that this guy might just be someone who likes to strut around in front of the press shooting his mouth off to stir things up. The 'any press is good press' thinking, if so than the league gets a colorful owner to go with their colorful coach (Ray Hudson). Should make for some interesting owners meetings.

    And yes I think that up until this season when MLS began their community marketing campaign, with Valerama as the spokesman, they have marketed the Latino community in a condescending manner.

    With the current trend they are finally doing what they should have been doing all along. And really what they should have been doing with all of their marketing. Going out into the community making individual contact and actively working to bring them into the stadium. Sticking Jorge in goal, bringing El Matador in for a season, or having Latin Heritage Night once game a season is not going to do it. Good starts granted, but you still have to go out into the public and win fans of a team and the league.

    And I agree with you that to get the respect of the SA leagues MLS needs to win it. It is sports that really is the only way to gain respect. Associating yourself with a brand name that is already known in that market will not get you there.

    As far as this individual goes that was specific to that conversation and maybe a bit overboard. Again, from what has hit the paper yes it seems like MLS has underestimated this guy and his skills at the table.

    Sorry if I you felt I insulted your heritage (I am assuming that you are Mexican) I certainly did not mean to do that. It is just that I have never liked the MLS approach to the Latino marketing. I know that here in Columbus it has been virtually ignored as far as I know. And Columbus has a large and growing Latino population. I have no doubt you have a different perspective living is LA where I am certain the Latino market is catered to a bit more aggressively.

    And yes I do know that MLS wants the community to put butts in the seat. This is a butts in the seat league. I am not certain what good Chivas North would do as far as a television contract though. This league is miles away from a real TV deal.

    Finally, if this does happen and this gentleman uses this team as an opportunity to showcase Latino-American soccer talent that has been overlooked to date than this is a wonderful idea and I will support it entirely.
     
  4. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me just say that I think you were closer the first time, and here's why:

    As we all know, MLS thrives on secrecy. The numbers, the contracts, the player deals, the "double-secret drafts" held at midnight in the men's room, all of this leagues' business is conducted in secret, behind closed doors; afterwards, they tie it all up neatly, put their spin on it and release it to the world.

    So all of this "send out Vergeras' flunky to blab to a reporter" stuff (and there's no way you keep your job if you're revealing negotiating details without your bosses' approval; clearly he's doing what he's told) is a Chivas tactic, because it's just not how MLS does business. Never, ever.



    As for the subject of "Latino Marketing" IMO the league takes a bad rap on this.

    Initially, tes, they thoughyt (not unreasonably) that they didn't have to do much to draw Latin soccer fans. They figured all they had to do was say "HEY EVERYBODY - LOOK - WE GOT SOME SOCCER HERE! and they'd come running.

    But it's equally true that they thought the same thing about ANGLO fans too. They didn't do squat to reach out to guys like us who already loved the game. All their efforts were aimed at the "Family" market, enticing the minivan crowd to come on out for some good, wholesome entertainment.

    Some of us were a little offended, but most of us went anyway BUT (and here's the key) a lot of us DIDN'T.

    We all know "soccer snobs" who follow Euro soccer but refuse to care about MLS, considering it crap. And there are a whole bunch of them - the Manchester United "Dash for the Cash" tour this summer sold out huge stadiums full of soccer fans. MLS can only dream of crowds like that.

    But anyway, so after the Latinos didn't show up, MLS did everything they could think of - more Latin players, special invitations, everything (hell, the Crew even arranged to broadcast their games in SPanish).

    I wish somebody would tell me what it is MLS hasn't done that they could or should have done to draw Hispanic fans.

    Better yet, call Jim Smith - I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.

    The problem here, boys and girls, is NOT that they don't try to reach the Latino fan - it's the the Latino fan DOESN'T WANT TO BE REACHED.

    They have proved enormously immune to any and all approaches. You guys can say that "Hispanic Heritage Night" isn't wenough, but when nobody much shows up for it, what the hell are you supposed to do?

    Go drag them there at gunpoint?

    The Hispanic immigrant community is loyal to their old home teams - like Chivas - and they consider MLS as so much "white Anglo soccer" and they just don't want to go.

    It's like trying to get you mugs to support WUSA: is it the "marketing" that's keeping you from it, or is it just that yopu don't care? Would "better marketing" make you go to Women's games?
     
  5. Flyer Fan

    Flyer Fan Member+

    Apr 18, 1999
    Columbus, OH
    Is "goat screws man" as newsworthy as "man bites dog?"
     
  6. DGA57

    DGA57 Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    Dublin, OH
    I think the problem is not that they don't want to be reached. It's the fact that they can't afford to take away time from work to go see MLS soccer. Most of the Latinos here in Central Ohio are lower to lower/middle class and they come from Mexico and Central America. Most are here to improve their economic situation with many working two jobs, mainly construction or restaurants, and sending a good amount of money back home. Many live 6-8 to an apartment. You see them at the construction sites on Sunday's - when others are at home relaxing and recovering from the work week. A good many of them expect to go back to their countries in the future and the spend their Sunday (when not working) following their home team via satellite.

    I don't know how you would market to this group, or if it's even worthwhile the effort.
     
  7. Eggy

    Eggy New Member

    May 28, 1999
    CBUS
    I think they've got time they just want to seperate themselves. I've seen them hanging out at Latin Restaurants, night clubs and in the middle of the streets. But never mixing with Americans.
     
  8. fdp

    fdp Red Card

    Oct 24, 2001
    The feeling is mutual.

    I am a member of BS because I enjoy reading other peoples opinions of futbol. I happened to come across his post and asked him a question. If you have a problem with that so be it.

    Myself included.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. fdp

    fdp Red Card

    Oct 24, 2001
    Thanks for responding TimD.

    Yes, I am of Mexican Heritage and no I am not offended.

    I agree with you about Latino Heritage Night. It doesn't really interest me nor entice me to go to a game. I attend games because I want to see live footie involving a local team.

    It is good to hear that the Latino population is growing in Ohio.
     
  10. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe I'm being naive here, but I think that Hunt and AEG would LOVE to put an end to single-entity. An end to single-entity seems to me to also implicity mean that you have each team with their own owner. if THAT is true, it also means that Hunt and AEG have been able to sell multiple teams and put that money in their pocket and also avoid the headache of running several businesses at the same time. I don't see why AEG or Hunt WOULDN'T want to get rid of their teams and get rid of single-entity. The problem now is that they just don't have the investors to do it at the moment.
     
  11. Eggy

    Eggy New Member

    May 28, 1999
    CBUS
    It's spelled football and in this country we say soccer.
     
  12. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Zone 14
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Thanks, beat me too it.

    God I can't stand that *#*#*#*#.
     
  13. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can think of one concrete reason off the top of my head why Lamar Hunt would single entity:

    Go ask him how much money he spent on player salaries when he owned the Dallas Tornado. And be sure to also ask him how much he spent after 1975.

    In general, single entity is very owner-friendly because it helps to depress player salaries, which most owners like. I don't think that AEG and Hunt are too terribly interested in getting rid of the mechanism which lets them impose a $1.7 million a year cap on every team without the consent of the players.
     
  14. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's already started.
     
  15. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Hunt and AEG don't want to get rid of the single entity business structure because SE allows them to violate the Sherman Act w/o fear of a lawsuit.
     
  16. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm too lazy to fix your post, but where you wrote "Latin" or "Latino" or "Hispanic," you should simply write "Mexican."

    What you wrote there is pretty much true about Mexicans, but it's not so true about Guatemalans, Hondurans, and Salvadorans.

    For one thing, they show up to MLS games relatively loyally. (Well, with the notable exception of Salvadorans in DC.)

    And while they are loyal to their old home teams, those teams are pretty hard to follow here. Ever try to find a Salvadoran league game on TV? Good luck. I think they've got 'em on Gol TV or maybe Fox Sports Espanol. I dunno. It's definitely not like the Mexican league, that I can get on three different channels with a set of rabbit-ears. And frankly, your average Central American isn't going to follow the Mexican league. If there's one thing that unites Salvadorans and Guatemalans and Hondurans, it's their hatred for Mexico and all things Mexican in soccer.

    Most importantly, ask most Salvadoran or Guatemalan or Honduran fans if MLS is a better league than the leagues back home and they'll say "Yes." Sure, some people will say "No," but a lot of those people would insist that the league back home is better than Serie A.

    So if you're some immigrant from El Salvador or Guatemala or Honduras and your soccer choices are (a) watch the Mexican league on TV (b) buy a satellite setup and jump through some hoops to catch your team once in a blue moon on TV (c) follow the local league, which you know is better than the league back home, even if you don't know many of the players, which choice would you make? And those people have chosen MLS.

    The Burn, Galaxy, and DC United will all tell you that Central Americans have been very good to their attendances. The Galaxy got more bang for the buck from Martin Machon and Carlos Ruiz than they ever did from Jorge Campos or Carlos Hermosillo or Luis Hernandez.

    That's all very good, but the problem remains that Central Americans are far outnumbered by Mexicans in this country. And they're the demographic that give MLS suits visions of mo' money, mo' money, mo' money. That's who they've been chasing all this time, mostly unsuccessfully.

    It's not so much that MLS has been unsuccessful bringing in Latino fans, it's that they've been unsuccessful with Mexican fans. And that's why MLS has been making "come hither" eyes at Chivas.

    Not that I think for a second that the San Diego Goats will be anything other than an ordinary MLS team.
     
  17. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Put another way, covering the about a third of the leagues' losses (well 3/10 of it) is likely just about what one teams' losses would cost if single entity went away.

    The original plan they promoted was for single entity to go away in from 3 to 5 years. But you guys are right; the owners discovered how nice life is without collective bargaining and/or free agency, and are in no hurry to change it.

    And change it they could, in a heartbeat; one quick conference call between Massah Lamar and Uncle Phil is all it would take.
     
  18. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just don't see it. I'm aware of the Sherman Act and all of the other legal implications because I'm an attorney myself. But the fact still remains. While they are running multiple clubs, they haven't found a way to get in the black yet. Sure, they can keep salaries down, for now. But single entity also KEEPS them from making money by taking the focus away from any particular team that they could be running. If there were a different owner for each team, marketing would be much easier as each guy could do it for himself. As it is now, there is almost a total lack of it because these guys have too many teams to do it effectively. How many times have I heard people complain on here that there is no effort to market. Hell, you can't market when you are effectively running 3 or 5 teams. I understand what each of you is saying, but these guys are not in the league to NOT LOSE money. They are in the league to MAKE money. And I'd be willing to bet that if they thought, through studies or what have you, that having a salary cap of 10 million dollars would bring them more money ....... then they would do it. They would rather spend 10 to make 1 in profit, than spend 2, to lose 1 in the red. I just think that the problem is that they are having issues getting new investors. If, between Hunt and AEG, they could find solid investors for 6 of the 8 teams that they have in surplus, they'd sell 'em in a heartbeat. I think that Kroenke gives us a little idea of that.
     
  19. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey

    umm....I'm not sure how to respond to this. Do you actually believe Anshutz, Hunt and Kraft are involved in the day to day operations of the teams they "operate"?
    That's why you hire people to manage operations. Should I go tell my CEO tomorrow that we should get rid of 3 of our 4 divisions so he can just concentrate on mine? I mean, I don't want him to be spread too thin or anything.
    Profound.
    Amazing. Where did you come up w/ this stuff? They sure must learn ya good in them there lawyer schools
    Yep.

    Now - having multiple investors has absolutely NOTHING to do w the business structure of MLS.

    MLS's profitability has nothing to do w/ structure and everything to do with expenses for certain teams being WAY higher than their revenues. These certain teams are also a necessity.

    The bottom line is this:

    People seem to act like MLS is some evil black hole where on individual organization pays out and never gets anything back. It is not.

    Roughly 50% of the revenue generated by each team goes to the league. The league then pays salaries and lease costs for all the teams.

    The GM of each team is responsible for managing the operational budget for each individual team. They know ahead of time that 50% of their revenue is going to lease and player salaries, and they must budget accordingly.
     
  20. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    P.S.

    I just re-read my post, and I didn't mean to come off as a dick. Too tired to edit it. If you took offense, sorry.
     
  21. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll repost this since I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    As an example, I live in Phoenix which means I don't see many MLS games live. I did, however, make the trek to LA for the All-Star game this year. What I found striking was how many Latinos were there cheering for MLS. Lots and lots and lots of them, and when Ruiz headed home from Bocanegra's cross, the place erupted.

    Reducing this to a "Latino" issue misses the mark. It's a Mexican issue. The league hasn't been able to draw Mexican fans and MLS just can't seem to get past this.
     
  22. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    lol. i'll cut you some slack. I don't wish to argue about this as the bottom line is we will never be able to "prove" what is in the heads of Phil and Lamar. but i will say this. most of what you say is true, except that this is different in that their multiple businesses are supposedly in COMPETITION with each other. so there is a big difference between a CEO running different branches of a business that are tied to sister businesses in a cooperative way, and how this particular business is set up with teams competing with each other. anyway, as i said no biggie. we'll agree to disagree on this one i hope. we're all hoping for the same thing for MLS at the end of the day ..... success.
     
  23. Flyer Fan

    Flyer Fan Member+

    Apr 18, 1999
    Columbus, OH
  24. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't really give a damn about Dallas, but I can't imagine how badly it must have sucked to play in that craphole.

    Just watching it on TV made me want to lose lunch.
     
  25. fdp

    fdp Red Card

    Oct 24, 2001
    Good point.

    I wonder how many of those latinos in attendance were central americans immigrants who tend to always cheer against an MFL side and how many of them were Mexican immigrants who support Club America and hate everything Chivas.
     

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