Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal Manager

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by Super Llama, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    You might be right - I mainly remember a midfield trio of cecs+flam+hleb but now you mention it, hleb nominally played from the right. Rosicky was pure class - i forgot about him. he is an example of the quality of player we don't have anymore.

    I mean that is the perfect tldr; version of my post

    Wenger excelled in the era when you sent out players who could win the game with their vision.

    But already by 2005 you can see the limitation of the approach (and especially in europe). The defense simply puts huge pressure on the playmaker and ultimately the turnover creates a dangerous counter. The last truly elite wenger side (07/08)had such quality in midfield it could cope with that - but most of the time Wenger lost big games the same way over and over.

    This is exactly the same thing that happened in rugby because for a while it was easier to defend than attack. ( I use rugby only because I know how it works)

    The critical step was to create known patterns that the attacking team can reply on, and in any phase of play, they might be set to use 2 or 3 different patterns. Which one they use will only be decided at the last moment by the receiver. When that phase executes, the player on the ball decides whether to launch another phase.

    The obvious example is to work the ball to create a mismatch or overload. But because you cannot predict the exact moment or nature of the opportunity, all players need the technical skill set to exploit the opportunity when it appears.
     
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  2. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That’s why wide forwards became a thing and withdrawn strikers

    teams are more tactically aware these days. Back when henry was roasting fat bastards at cb that just kicked people
     
  3. Silva 5

    Silva 5 Member+

    Mar 10, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are there any top teams running a 4-4-2 anymore? Or any type of variation of it?
     
  4. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Off the top of my head... Atletico. Havent paid much attention to them this season but Simeone has almost exclusively run a 4-4-2 his entire career.
     
  5. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think that's fair. Take Henry for example. He came as a somewhat obscure winger and Wenger reinvented him as a striker, of elite proportions. So much so that he was one of the first 2 players chosen to be elected to the new PL Hall of Fame.
     
  6. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Don’t forget Paddy, who was languishing in Milan’s reserves.
     
  7. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    Henry and trezaguet were two massive talents at Monaco and really well known

    he flopped at juve and Wenger gave him a second chance

    vieira was a great find from Milan but I assume
    Wenger knew him well from France
     
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  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes.

    That is why talk of the 10 being dead is total nonsense.

    Greasy played successfully there, and in part as a throwback support striker, but also as someone who can slot into midfield.

    In some ways Greizmann was more like the support striker (the so called 10) of 20 years ago.
     
  9. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    and developed/transformed him, no?
     
  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes - Henry was well known but hadn't worked out at Juve

    @mebeSajid is correct about Viera - he was a top young talent but had no club career to speak of, so Wenger should get the credit for that one
     
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  11. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    he was already a wide forward or striker years before arsenal

    juve was wrong because Italian football is slow
     
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  12. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    even went to the world cup and played/scored.
     
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  13. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The story I've generally heard is that Henry was not really a dedicated striker until he joined Arsenal, and certainly not an elite striker. That's what Wenger is generally credited in doing, specifically by moving him from wing to central.

    I don't have much time to look this up, but from TH14's Wikipedia page:

    "Henry signed professional forms with Monaco, and made his professional debut on 31 August 1994, in a 2–0 loss against Nice.[11] Although Wenger suspected that Henry should be deployed as a striker, he put Henry on the left wing because he believed that his pace, natural ball control and skill would be more effective against full backs than centre-backs. ...

    "Henry left Monaco in January 1999, one year before his intimate and closest teammate David Trezeguet, and moved to Italian club Juventus for £10.5 million.[2] He played on the wing,[14] as well as at wing back and wide midfield, but he was ineffective as a goal scorer, ...

    "Henry transferred from Juventus on 3 August 1999 to Arsenal for an estimated fee of £11 million, reuniting with his former manager Arsène Wenger.[17][18] It was at Arsenal that Henry made his name as a world-class footballer, ... Henry was immediately moulded into a striker by Wenger, a move that would pay rich dividends in years to come. ... "

    This is all in support of the idea that Wenger developed him, which someone (honestly can't recall if it was you or Jitty or ??) was challenging.
     
  14. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, let me get this straight: Wenger can’t be credited with developing Henry because Wenger already developed Henry?
     
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  15. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Wenger wasn’t at Monaco the time henry was

    he was in Japan then I believe? At least when Henry was in the first team

    Wenger helped produce George Weah

    Henry was also helped in clairefontaine
     
  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It does seem Wenger developed Henry at Monaco :D

    All I remembered was he went to Juve at a bit ticket because he was already a hot talent. I remember seeing him for France at World Cup '98
     
  17. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Henry was 17 when arsene left
     
  18. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wenger was there when Monaco identified him and put him in Clairefontaine. Wenger was there when he signed. And it was Wenger who first played him in the senior team (I think Henry had just turned 18 by this point).

    It wasn’t long after Henry’s debut that Wenger was fired, but there’s no question he was seminal in the development of the player. Henry himself considers Wenger to be his greatest and most influential mentor.
     
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  19. bandwagongooner

    bandwagongooner Member+

    Dec 9, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Henry was always considered to be a massive talent, but he was not living up to his potential. Wenger got him at Arsenal and the potential blossomed into one of the five best players in the world.
     
  20. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Jitters, here you go:

     
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  21. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Obscure? Are you crazy? Henry just scored four goals in the ‘98 World Cup and we signed him from the best team in the world playing in the best league in the world, for £12 million. Good grief, man.
     
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  22. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    12 million was a ton of money in 1999. Can't say Henry was obscure, but have to give Wenger a lot of credit for his development.
     
  23. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Yeah

    But it goes back to what I said earlier. Wenger is a 300 or 400 level college professor, who many, including himself, thought was teaching 9th graders or running a high school. Wenger’s strength was getting supremely talented players over the final hurdle to be ready for Barcelona or Madrid or the Milan clubs. Wenger thought he could take raw talents and turn them into world beaters, which was never his strength.

    The perfect Wenger development model was van Persie.
     
  24. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    https://apple.news/AzvnLgIcxTaaYSVhqnyJFxQ

    The Evening Standard is quoting Arteta admitting he’s made a lot of mistakes and after the season ends wants to reflect on how to improve. It would be interesting to know what he considers to be his biggest mistakes.
     
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  25. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Credit to him for that, at least. You can't improve if you don't recognize the flaws.
     
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