Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal Manager

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by Super Llama, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    i'm not saying azeez is going to be able to do this against premier league competition right now.



    but is azeez, maitland-niles, or willock really worse than what ceballos brings to the table? i'm sure any of them three can give away goals against competitions just as proficiently.
     
  2. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    Saw on Twitter that Azeez isn't at all good defensively.

    This guy on Twitter came up with some visualizations based on FBRef data:



    I think there's something screwed up in the data, because it suggests that Ceballos is our best midfielder, and that's a very strange conclusion that doesn't match what we see or Arteta's team selections.

    But AMN and Willock didn't get game time in midfield because they're terrible passers, and there the data confirms what we see.

    Here's AMN23:



     
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  3. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mikel comes out punching in his post-match presser. Reminded me of Pep a bit, when he's in defensive victim mode.

    He had an axe to grind about being misquoted in the press. He said it's the first time he's had to clarify something so vehemently.

    Whether or not he's the right guy to improve us and get back to a top team like we were, I support him and like him as a person.
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Suggests Partey is the best all round midfielder by a distance and suited to 8

    Xhaka is not good

    Priority is to sign a 6
     
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  5. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    My theory is that Ceballos takes so long on the ball, it allows him to pick out better passes. But it also make the overall attack easier to defend because the ball isn't pinging around as it should. The stats in this chart don't penalize a player for holding on to the ball too long.

    AMN could be a good RB if he committed to it. Last year when the midfield was awful defensively, I still think he would have been a good option.

    Willock is a goal machine. Put him in the right system and he can thrive. The Newcastle loan was really good, going to the wrong club could have been a flop.

    Thanks for sharing those, really interesting.

    Here's Bissouma, very much a 6:
     
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  6. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #831 daedalus, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
    the thing i read earlier in the season about azeez was that he can have lapse in concentrations. that might contribute to being lacking in defense.

    i don't think it's a screw up in data, actually. i think most of us would agree that ceballos is probably the most technically proficient of our midfielders and i think those numbers reflect that. the problem with going just purely by numbers is they don't necessarily show how long they take on the ball or how many touches they waste. nor can they measure the, "holy balls, this moron is a fucking numpty!"

    i think those charts matches pretty well what we think of or know of willock and maitland-niles. i will say that i do see value in maitland-niles being a midfielder who can pressure the opposition and carry the ball forward. and willock being one who can pop up for the odd goals - as bigman compared him to a, and i am paraphasing here, yugo aaron ramsey. i probably value maitland-niles more because of the ability to pressure the opposition - since our midfielders seems to do that so rarely - especially if he is paired with a creator like smith-rowe. but there is something to be said for the odd goal from midfield when our midfield is so lacking there. in either case, i would take either over ceballos honestly. :D
     
  7. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That ship sailed long ago. Me thinks it's not worth lamenting any more.
     
  8. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Apparently United and Everton’s interest is in him is as a right back.
     
  9. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, how completely ironic if that were to actually transpire.
     
  10. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    united would be weird with them having wan-bissaka and a highly rated kid.

    i can see everton. it doesn't seem like coleman is an automatic choice anymore?
     
  11. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is Ox all over again. AW started playing him at RB but he felt he should be a CM. Went to Liverpool because they said he could play CM. To their credit they atleast gave him a shot but in atleast the first couple season at Liverpool he played more RB then CM. According to WhoScored he is playing mostly CM now but has less than 20 total appearances this season.
     
  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Ox can't play football properly.

    To be fair Klopp has always had a few high energy drones in his BvB side of similar low quality
     
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  13. Senor Askew

    Senor Askew Member

    Jan 19, 2001
    San Francisco, CA.
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Imagine how different things could have been for Arsenal the past decade if Wilshire and Oxlade-Chamberlain could have actually stayed on the field, developed and fulfilled their potential. They'd have needed a strong ball winner playing behind them, but there's an alternate universe in which they would have made for one heck of a tandem in the center of the midfield for a full decade.
    I once had a fever dream of a healthy Wilshire, Ox and Ramsey playing in front of N'Golo Kante. It was a beautiful dream. *sigh*
     
  14. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    It seems to me that pessimists have been looking at the seven game unbeaten streak beginning on Boxing Day as the anomalous (lumpy) result, while optimists might consider the seven game winless streak that immediately proceeded it as the anomalous result. A streak in which Arsenal only scored three goals, because of a lack of creativity in the midfield which has since been addressed with the inclusion of Smith-Rowe and to a lesser extent Odegaard in the lineup. But it was also a streak in which Arsenal played significant portions of three of the games with 10 men, salvaging two draws and a 1-0 loss to Burnley on Aubameyang’s own goal from those games. If Arsenal plays them out with a full team, all three were winnable games. Individual mistakes, which include red cards, have significantly marred Arsenal’s season. Win all three of those games and Arsenal sit 5th two points behind Chelsea. The loss to Wolves was another game Arsenal were dominating before the harsh red card for Luiz, followed by Leno’s red.

    Arsenal may not be as good as the 7 game undefeated streak, but they aren’t as bad as the 7 game winless streak that proceeded it.
     
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  15. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think Ox would have ever fulfilled his potential. His football IQ is terrible.
     
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  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    That's the trouble with cherry picking.

    Often you are looking at random variation and constructing a narrative out of it.

    In any run of bad results, there will be reasons on field that you lost (an error or red card or bad luck etc) - so there is danger reading into lots of meaning into those.

    What I think supports the idea that there is a change in trend is that there is a fundamental change in the composition of the team since boxing day.
     
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Wlshere was a much better player than Ox - they don't belong in the same sentence. Wilshere has signature performances.

    Unfortunately Wenger era Arsenal had a dreadful record of managing injuries when you look at Wilshere, Ramsey etc

    It's why I OK with Cesc and RvP leaving to clubs where they would be better protected and managed, instead of getting no ref protection on field, and then having your injuries mismanaged.
     
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  18. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I don’t know that better injury management would have played a role with Wilshere, his body just didn’t seem to be built to withstand the stresses of football. Ramsey’s injuries were all about his glass hamstrings. I kept hoping he would take a cue from fellow Welshman Ryan Giggs, who turned to yoga after suffering hamstring problems early in his career.
     
  19. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    #844 casoccerdad47, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
    Individual errors, and red cards are errors, are a hallmark of inconsistent teams, good teams limit their errors. The top four teams in the table have a combined 4 red cards all season, Arsenal had three in a seven game winless streak. I think that’s a pretty strong correlation. It certainly helps explain why the winless streak lasted 7 games.

    the change in the composition of the team explains the improvement in the underlying offensive data, but the underlying defensive data as has been decent all season and was more than good enough to avoid the seven game winless streak, but for the individual errors.
     
  20. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    it seemed like all the players coming up during that time period had TERRIBLE instinct and football IQ.

    oxlade-chamberlain, to me, screamed a need for a very strict and structured coach who will give him very exact instructions. i think he would have been excellent in that environment. it felt like he was someone who took instructions well - you can see distinct improvements with the introduction of cazorla and then sanchez - but just not a fit with wenger's "teaching" style.

    it was nice to see with starting with iwobi, then maitland-niles (yes, i'm biased), and now this saka & smith-rowe generation that these guys have WAY better instinct and football IQ.
     
  21. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    it is conjecture, i know, but i think if wenger left wilshere as the deep midfielder, he had a higher chance of staying healthy. he was brilliant deep.

    when he was pushed into the 10 role, he was operating in more congested areas where he will inevitably lose the ball just enough to invite a shitshow challenge that wrecks him.

    he, uh, was also not that great as a 10.
     
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  22. bandwagongooner

    bandwagongooner Member+

    Dec 9, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ox lacked skill in important areas. He had inconsistent first touch and close control and really poor vision/awareness. Imo, those are talents as much as speed and strength are. Ox had great athletic skill but limited fine motor skill and limited spatial capacity.
     
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  23. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    You can point to the post-Boxing Day success, but the club was in such a poor position that the Europa League was the only hope of success this season.

    If you look at each individual leg, those results were 3 wins, 3 ties and 2 losses against pretty weak competition.

    Also post Boxing Day, the FA Cup run ended in the 4th round to Southampton after only getting past Newcastle.

    I agree that the trajectory and underlying performance is more important than actual results which can be defined by luck or chance. But I also have to look at how he built those performances. Yes, Saka and ESR were key. But he also leaned heavily on players who are in decline or don't have a future at the club. Luiz, Ceballos and Odegaard are gone. Auba and Willian are over 30 and in decline. Bellerin, Leno, Xhaka and Lacazette want to leave. Edu and Arteta are two inexperienced guys who are suddenly realizing they need a scouting dept as they go into a critical summer transfer window without the funds that European qualification would have provided. I'm not confident.
     
  24. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    We are talking about the post Boxing Day FA Cup loss to Southampton when Willian started as the 10 and Nketiah as the 9. A game in which the only goal was an own goal. An FA Cup game followed three days later by a return match in the league which Arsenal won 3-1 with Smith-Rowe as the 10 and Lacazette as the 9, Enough said about that loss.

    Since Boxing Day Willian has had three league starts, so he’s irrelevant to the post Boxing Day form and Ceballos only returned to a starting role when Tierney was injured and Arteta decided to use Xhaka at left back. We’ll have to wait to see who stays and who goes, but I’m not particularly worried about any of the rumors of who wants to leave as long as they don’t bring in more pensioners to replace them. In fact I’ll be happy to see some of them go.
     
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  25. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    So it was wise to punt on the FA Cup - where Soton went on to the semifinals - to gain 3 points in the league? A top 6 finish has been hopeless since Boxing Day, what was gained by that decision?

    Willian's played about the same number of minutes in the league as Martinelli since Boxing Day.

    I'll be happy to see some of those players leave, too. I'm not worried about that. I'm frustrated that Arteta built his team this season around players on their way out rather than building around players with potential long-term futures at the club.
     
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