You are only seeing things from the US lens. Ozil and Shaqiri are definitely not considered white in Turkey and Switzerland.
Yeah, I think we are all together on this, and I don’t mean to read as accusatory. Equally, I think we can agree that @The Jitty Slitter didn’t literally mean ‘only’ when he typed that.
dude, ozil was a great player on the national team until something went wrong then he immediately became "turkish".
yeah, i think it's a goalscorer frustration too. henry was a cranky bastard as a captain whenever he didn't score. and i think we can see, too, like you said, he is still celebrating with teammates and he is still looking for teammates in opportunities. he's a volume shooter who needs space and he hasn't had much of either this season.
Don't have first hand knowledge of that, but I don't doubt it for a second. But, as has been amply discussed since that post, Jitty's reference to Ozil as a "brown" person, isn't resonant with me. Frankly I liked better the word "otherness" which someone else used above. But that just speaks to the difference in geo-cultural perspectives. BTW I liked the way we had that little debate above and it didn't get too hot, even though race & religion are typically very hot-button subjects. +1 for a civilized edifying BigSoccer today. p.s. It's also nice that this didn't even get as hot as the other little debate that Jitty, me & others were having in the MD thread about Laca and how much goal production is required for a primary striker.
Ah OK i get you. We don't have that many black people in germany compared to the US, or say France. The Turkish community are certainly seen as "not white" - a lot of this stuff came to light in the Ozil racism saga over here, but of course its tied up with a lot of extra stuff around religion and immigration which doesn't apply in the US context.
Good point! Of course he is also an "eastern european" which plays into a whole different range of tropes
This is pretty much how I see it. I've made the direct experience as a white foreigner over here that my kids are never treated as part immigrant, whereas kids of turkish descent who are 3rd generation can be seen as less german. Which is really at the heart of it. If you look and listen to my kids - you can't know they are half kiwi whereas you look at a 'turkish' kid a whole bunch of assumptions come with it.
I think there is something in football that you aren't allowed to display any emotions beyond anger or loud bro-style shouting when you score. So Henry and Gallas in particular got hammered for this - even though both were elite competitors
As to the last sentence --- probably but not necessarily. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
I should have been more accurate for my learned friend I think I mentioned before a friend of a friend wrote some official all black player profiles which were published. Then someone pointed out to him that for the Polynesian players he had written stuff like "physical weapon" whereas for the white players he had written lots of stuff like "top rugby brain" - he was mortified - but it shows how pervasive stereotypes can be. But you know - we are not many years past the days when commentators would openly say on national television that the Polynesian guys couldn't play structured footy
No doubt. In the U.S. it manifested itself, inter alia, in the ridiculously long time it took for there to be black quarterbacks in the NFL.
I was going to add something about that. My team Canterbury currently has an outrageously great playmaker Richie Mo'unga who is of Tongan/Samoan descent. But back in the day he wouldn't have got the opportunities in that role at school boy level because the "physical weapon" players were typecast into other roles.
The extra stuff around religion and immigration are the reason Trump was elected. I live in a minority majority state and the US is on the way to becoming a minority majority nation, so the Steven Millers of this country are scared they are losing power. They would prefer a zero immigration policy. In addition, there are a lot of crazies running around (with guns) who believe they will be part of a new civil war to return the US to its white Christian roots. They support politicians like Trump and Miller because of their immigration policies. So minorities become vilified, they’re lazy, or they’re all criminals (see Trump's 2016 campaign speeches about Mexican immigrants). There are parallels between Turkish migrant workers in Germany and Hispanic migrant workers in the US. They are both identifiable minorities. Ozil was part of a minority in both Germany and England and all the stuff about body language was just another way of saying he’s lazy, he doesn’t have a Northern European “work ethic”. While talking about these slights to a players work ethic or intelligence in the context of their minority status may be more precise, Steven Miller and his cohorts would absolutely consider Ozil a brown person.
I agree with you 100% - this is exactly what AfD tried to weaponise over here, particularly about Syrian refugees. But I won't sidetrack into all this, for Yoss's sake The interesting this is, I never heard the body language meme about Ozil in germany until World Cup 2014 when he had been in england for a season. That is where it came from. But it was laughable when he was one of the hardest working players in Brazil along with Mueller. There was a game a couple of years ago where Germany played badly in the first half and the commentator started on about the body language stuff, then stopped himself and said - actually that's not true, Ozil worked hard in the first half, showed for the ball and supported his team mates - and that is the problem with these tropes
This way of thinking never made sense to me. Having half the country comprised of non-whites does not shift power in any real way. Whites still have the large majority number-wise, economically and in terms of ownership. In reality, America is not a "white/non-white" country. It's a "have/have-not" country, and the "haves" are becoming more exclusive, and being white does not necessarily get you in the club. With respect to religion and culture, the color divide is not really important. Latinos and black Americans are heavily Christian - many even believe in a white Jesus. And when it comes to American hegemony or imperialism, whites are not monolithic, so I don't get the yearning for a white majority as if they are. Frankly, many minorities (especially Latinos) are all for Amerian power and white cultural assimilation, so it would make sense for the Millers of the world to align with those groups instead of making them the enemy.
We are moving away from a discussion of the treatment of minorities in soccer and most other sports to a more political discussion, but I’ll stick a toe in. I didn’t say while nationalism was logical, but it’s clearly a mindset. One of the biggest issues for the Millers of the world is that minorities lean heavily toward the Democratic Party, threatening the Republican Party’s grip on power. If the democrats gain full control of the government, the haves will likely have a little bit less, i.e. top marginal take rates will go up, which is why the Republicans are typically funded by big money donors. Re the white have nots: They have been told for so long that minorities are coming to take their jobs that many don’t see minorities as potential allies. Finally, I mentioned religion because of the strong anti Muslim prejudice in this country and in Europe, which directly impacts opinions about Ozil.
Arteta is nothing special for sure. He has a stronger squad then 15 other EPL clubs yet is out of the top 10. He can't settle on a starting 11 Agree- his sub schedule/ selection has been poor since last year Personal conflicts w gduzi Ozil, now ABA are scary and hurt team. The positive is the FA cup And that some players have been given a chance to attack (saka, thierney, Rowe) I think he needs to go if he can't win Europa...or u give him 8 games next season and see how he does.
If Arteta wins the EL, that buys him one more season. If not then I would sack him. This season has been terrible but we still have something to play for—> EL
If Arteta doesn't win the final, but arsenal finished ahead of tottenham, does that move the needle for anyone?