As a reasonably unbiased observer I thought Riley had a pretty good game under very difficult circumstances to be honest. It may have already been said but United would have had a penalty anyway when Ronaldo was brought down by Ashley Cole. Anyway, personally I thought that the PK was a good call so, over the game as a whole, you can't really complain. As for the bringing down of FL by Rio, I thought that FL had pushed the ball way out of reach and the sending off of Rio would have been harsh. I DID think it was a free kick, though. As for Wengers complaints about the refereeing, well, it's a bit lame bearing in mind the things that Arsenal have got away with in the past when Wengers never sees it.
I always thought that it was awarded based on the number of fouls committed and so on. I didn't realise it also included data on how the fans behaved. Great achievement and all that but it does put a rather different complexion on things if some people are then turning it into a discussion as to whether teams are likely to commit more fouls than the other side. To be fair the article doesn't mention the actual scores so maybe it's not that significant an issue. Do you know of any more details?
With all due respect to your past posts, many of which I enjoyed, I don't think we saw the same game. Riley was just plain awful. Being out of position and not consulting with the linesman (who should have had a better view, IMHO) is no excuse for the penalty award. Being out of position and not consulting the linesman on the Ruud stamp is no excuse. Everyone in the stadium saw Ferdinand pull down Freddy, and not even a free kick. To be fair, I think these were the majors, but there were a lot of things happening right around him that he never called, and both teams can complain about some of those things. This is not restricted to this game. Did you see Riley at Euro 2004? He was an embarrassment then and he has learned nothing.
Damn you. As i was reading your post i was just about to bring up Mikey Riley's disgraceful performance in the Germany vs Latvia match, when he missed two clear-cut penalties for the Latvian & i believe a possible sending-off as well?.
Riley was brutal in that Euro 2004 match. Ironically, prior to Euro 2004 I though Riley was one of the better referees, he did the game Stamford Bridge when he sent off Gudjohnsen for two yellow cards.
I disagree. This thread is about Riley and his performance as a matchh referee. The fact that Riley has never seen any ManU player commit a foul at OT egregious enough to call a penalty, and yet has seen it 8 times in 8 matches for them certainly is, shall we say, interesting? I think that precisely what you are suggesting (Dig out some tapes of Riley's ManU matches and watch them) should be done, by the FA head of officials.
What I say is worthless so i thought I'd delete it and go back to sucking milk through rubber teat's.... UMMMMMmm lovely warm milk. Now where's that parental control button...........
Cool thanks for that. I only know what I've read in the press since I've been here...almost 3 yrs and it was always about how Arsenal were bad sportsmen with lots of reds and yellows...guess they did a lot to address that and they won the award. So that's even with last year's mauling of RVN and the huge fine? That's surprising. At least there is one Arsenal fan that is helpful and not an arse.
Thanks, I appreciate the fact that you actually tried to engage in a genuine discussion rather than simply read everything you wanted to read, like others in this thread have (BTW--I'm pretty sure there is a sun and moon in my world, at least I know that I've checked and considered it and that if someone claimed otherwise, I'd at least listen to their point of view if they were rational about it, rather than just dismiss them because they didn't agree with me). And I appreciate that you understand the main thrust of my post -- that the rules never mention the words "last man back". Actually, I also appreciate you filling out the rest of the rule; in the interest of time and space, I just put the denying obvious goalscoring opportunity and tried to deny the rest (I could have put the simple lingo "DOGSO -- DFK" but then no one would have had any idea what I was talking about). I also agree that it may be "de facto" law that if the last man back fouls an attacker going to goal, he or she is likely to be sent off. But, the further you get from goal in such a situation, the less likely it is that this is "de facto". Imagine this happened 45 yards from goal. Sure, Rio is the last man back, but I'm not sure many people are going to argue for a straight red there. As you state (I believe I'm reading this correctly) in your post, the illustrations intended to assist in INTERPRETATION of the laws suggest that it is proper to send a player off for a foul in the case we are discussing -- just outside the box -- indeed, I've seen it happen to a United player in the same spot when Luke Chadwick was sent off for tugging down a Liverpool attacker about 3 or 4 years ago, but Chadwick was engaged in more obvious shirt tugging for a good 10 yards in that case and never could have played it off as anything but (again, I'm not arguing that Rio didn't foul Ljungberg, he did). To try to clarify using one of your earlier quotes might be useful. You said "Now this is silly. If, as you say, the attacker "would otherwise have a clear run for a one on one with the keeper" then it is, by definition, a clear goalscoring opportunity. I mean, what is a clear goalscoring opportunity if not a clear one-on-one with the keeper from the middle of the pitch?" That's the point of my popst. That the term "clear goalscoring opportunity" may not even be correct. The way in which the rule is taught in classes seems to imply that the word "obvious" is more important and the emphasis is more on "goalscoring" than "opportunity". There really must almost be an automatic goal or one which could only be missed due to the foul or the attacker's own misplay. If there are too many intervening factors, even some very remote, such as the possibility that another defender could sweep in an take the ball, it's unlikely that the red will be given. To go back to my example with the GK taking down an attacker, perhaps I was wrong to use the explanation that the attacker is going away from goal. Let's just assume he or she pushes the ball around the keeper to the side and must then get around the keeper, get the ball before going out of bounds, turn and shoot. Many times a red won't be given there because the attacker really isn't just going to be able to tap the ball into the goal -- you know you've seen just a yellow in many of these situations...yet the keeper is "the last man back" and there would seem to be an obvious goalscoring opportunity. I also think your example pertaining to serious foul play or violent conduct are somewhat distinct as well. These have been intepreted very strictly over the years and the language isn't so vague as to not know that a punch will be considered serious foul play. By contrast, the DOGSO rules are a little newer, have more wiggle room, and tend to be taught so as to be applied a little more narrowly. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think that "last man back" is as de facto DOGSO as stomping is "violent conduct." I've always seen this situation as one of the more interesting for discussion at my classes and recertifications, definitely one that is not uniform in application, and, often misquoted as simple truth in all cases, as though it must 100 percent of the time be a red card if the last defender fouls an attacker, no matter where that attacker is on the field or how likely he or she is to score. I was just trying to clear up what I see is a common fallacy that is often misquoted, like I think it was here. Finally, what would I have done in that situation? I likely would have called the foul, but not sent Rio off, instead opting for a yellow. Then again, I'm somewhat sparing with my cards -- and don't want to give a red unless really necessary. And someone's (perhaps your) point about Riley may be right -- he didn't call the foul because he thought he would have had to give a red. I almost had a similar situation the other nightin an adult game, where an attacker looked like he would be fouled by a clumsy defender about 8 yards out. I prayed that the defender wouldn't clip his heels as he chased the attacker, because I already knew I'd have to send him off. Luckily, there was no contact (and the attacker somehow put it right at the keeper). But it is one of the last things a ref wants to do in any game.
Yeah because I'm ALWAYS in this board. It was my first time ever going into an Arsenal board that's only because I didn't look at it as that. I just saw it on the main page and the title and looked at what was being said. Trust me I won't ever come into this one again. One last observation is that the English Arsenal supporters are decent people...my friends at work are. The American ones are complete jerks. Ok, you post stuff like this and still wonder why Im editing your posts. Please keep to your promise and don't come on here again. You may of realised that there are plenty of Man U fans welcome here they don't have stupid attitudes like you. Any more and you will get a forum ban. Rick
You know, you were the one that came on our board and started making unsupported comments and attacking our team. Now through a magical transformation WE are the jerks. Reign in your ego, just say, "I'd really like to start over" and we will be glad to have you back. Just a suggestion and not a slag at all. Look at the number of supporters of other teams here and how they are treated when they act respectfully on our board and then make your opinion. I think you will find that this is one of the more tolerant boards at BS. You are more than welcome to go to the ManU board and talk about whatever you want to, including running down Arsenal, and I won't say anything about it over there. You just have to realize who's house you're in. That said, I resemble your comment about being a complete jerk. Ask anyone.
You have ignored an important part of the entire issue. If teams do not attack them, then Arsenal do not need to tackle and thus their level of fouling will be low as a direct result. It is important to keep that in mind before stating that they have solved their thuggish nature.
Thanks for introducing yourself yesterday. Thanks for the congratulations and I can respect the fact that you disagreed with the ref's decisions. See you again at the Lucky sometime... Cheers.
The performance of referees is not based on aggregate statistics. It's based on performance in individual matches. The last two seasons one of the best referees on Australia gave 7 red cards to one particular team in 9 matches. The club complained of bias and the matter went to an inquiry. The inquiry found unanimously that there was no issue of bias and every decision was correct. What I'm endeavouring to point out is that statistics don't mean squat by themselves for referees. A team is ultimately responsible for any poor run of results they achieve, therefore a poor statistical record is meaningful. However, a referee cannot control how many penalties he gives or how many cards he distributes because they are ultimately determined by the actions of players - a penalty that isn't there to be given can't be given. By themselves, lopsided statistics have nothing to do with the aptitude of the referee. What is relevant is whether or not the individual decisions were correct. Take a look at the tapes. Taken by themselves, the matches refereed by Riley at OT are by and large pretty uncontroversial. Referees are never going to be perfect, but there's really no endemic problem here.
I agree that they are meaningless by themselves. My point is that when an experienced official seems to have anomalous results in matches with certain teams, it needs to be investigated. In this case, it is harder because at question is not only if there was bias in making the calls, but has he deliberately ignored calls that would benefit the other team. Frankly, if there were a referee that had called 8 penalties for Arsenal in 8 matches at Highbury and no penalties against us, then I would want an inquiry, if only to allay suspicions against that official. How is one to then decide when to start such an inquiry? Statistical analysis is helpful in this respect. Also, I definitely do not think that Liverpool fans would agree that the calls have been non-controversial.
9 pks called for united. 3 things that bug me about the match and Mr. Riley: 1. Last man(Rio) takes down Ljungberg outside the box. Nothing is called and as one person said at the Highbury pub, a card had to be shown either for diving(it wasn't) or a last man foul(at least a yellow if not a send off). 2. Rooney's flop in the box. Guess Rooney is geraing up for Rudd's 201 class is diving. Little contact and he falls like a ton of bricks. 3. Toure is brought down in the box. Tripped and then Phiol Neville comes and yells at Toure. Granted this is at OT, but if Merch U gets a pk for for slight contact, does that mean someone has to shot someone to get a pk for Arsenal?
If the ref decides it was incidental contact, no call is made or card is given. As for Rooney, justice that The Sun is leading the parade against him, fully deserved or not. As for Toure, I held my breath a little when it happened, and it would have been a harsh penalty to give at that point. But then the penalty we did get was harsh for Arsenal as well... Can you honestly say that during your entire (impressive) 49 game unbeaten streak, that you drew a game you probably should not have due to a dodgy pen or missed off-side call in your favour? That doesn't make anything right, but the cliche is correct about things evening out over a season....
So the entire league barring Everton and Leicester collectively decided not to attack us? Your cutting analysis astounds me.
I am not an Arsenal fan but this is Way too funny. LMMFAO, this is a must see... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2914&item=7109846501&rd=1
Actually Riley was the referee who awarded Liverpool a penalty at Old Trafford on April 24 last. See here: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=109659&cc=5739 Don't let fact get in the way of your arguments....