Mid Field Problems

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by jond, Oct 21, 2011.

  1. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From an ESPN Insider article today. I'll copy most, but no point in linking it because you need insider to read the whole thing.

    So with help from ESPN's own soccer metrics experts, the incomparable Albert Larcada and Paul Carr, we were able to get our eyes on some advanced data from Opta, the soccer world's leading stat-tracking firm and the one used by the English Premier League, MLS and others. Alas, due to a technical glitch, info from the U.S. squad's most recent game against Ecuador wasn't available. But examining the figures from Coach Klinsi's first four games is still revealing, starting up front.

    With just two goals scored, much has been made of the Americans' inability to find the net under the German ex-striker, and the numbers confirm what we already knew: The finishing woes are rooted in the Yanks' inability to create chances.

    When the U.S. got opportunities, they came almost exclusively from the wings. Central midfielders Michael Bradley, Kyle Beckerman, Clint Dempsey, Maurice Edu, Jermaine Jones and Jose Torres created just one scoring chance between them in 1,082 combined minutes before Ecuador.

    That's pretty incredible, especially when you consider that left wing Brek Shea has made seven chances all by himself. Even the fullbacks have been getting in on the act more than the men in the middle: Timmy Chandler, Steve Cherundolo and Edgar Castillo have created four chances between them.

    The dearth of service from the midfield partly explains why Jozy Altidore, whose scoring form for Dutch league club AZ has been respectable, isn't even getting looks in a U.S. shirt. Altidore, still scoreless under Klinsmann, has never been the sort of player to create his own chances. Indeed, he wasn't credited with any in Klinsmann's first four matches, although he did hit a good low cross that Shea whiffed on against Honduras.

    But back to the middle of the field. Last week we looked at Bradley's struggle for playing time, which led to a healthy debate in the comments section. That discussion was partly what led us to seek out the stats, and they certainly don't hurt the 24-year-old veteran's case.

    Because Bradley sat out the Costa Rica and Belgium games while his transfer to Serie A club Chievo was finalized, he played far fewer minutes than his midfield mates. Still, his pass completion rate (95.3 percent) was much higher than Beckerman's (84.4) or Edu's (85.2). And for those who believe that most of those dishes were backward or square, consider this: Bradley completed 25 of 27 forward passes (92.6 percent), compared to 153 of 185 (82.7 percent) for the other two.


    That is interesting, and I had not seen those numbers. Our CM's created ONE scoring opportunity in a combined 1082 mins leading up to Ecuador? Wow.

    And some think Brek shouldn't be starting, yet he's created 7 opportunities on his own. Also makes Jozy's situation a little more understandable, given the complete lack of service.

    This Beckerman/Edu combo simply won't work.

    I want to see a MB/Sacha pairing myself.
     
  2. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yikes. Doesn't sound like a more dynamic attack. Sounds more one-dimensional.

    Rep for posting some interesting analysis.

    I wonder WHO had the one scoring chance among central mids, and what was that chance?
     
  3. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well against Honduras, Edu did create a scoring chance for Williams with a beautiful weighted pass from just outside the 18 to a streaking Williams on the right side. Williams hit a screamer but right at the goalie and Edu continuing his run was a split second late in hitting the rebound.

    see 5:36 mark
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwZPTZbamcM&feature=related"]USA 1 Honduras 0 (Amistoso 08-10-2011) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, that is shocking.

    Wow, that is not at all shocking. Sensible people already knew that Bradley is good, Edu is mediocre and has not been playing well recently, and Beckerman is lousy.
     
  5. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe you should look at another paragraph from the article.


    That said, he has tackled less frequently. Bradley made just one in 97 combined minutes against Mexico and Honduras; Beckerman and Edu had one every 54 and 56, respectively. Of course, stats don't tell the whole tale in any sport, least of all soccer, where tactics, formations and substitutions can skew the picture. It's an intriguing picture nonetheless.”

    For the Honduras and Ecuador games from MLSSoccer.com
    Edu
    Passes made: 47 missed:11 forward:26 key:2 chance:1 recovery:7 tackles:4 block:1 interception:1
    Bradley
    Passes made: 50 missed:8 forward:25 key:0 chance:0 recovery:10 tackles:1 block:0 interception:2
    Shea
    Passes made: 36 missed:23 forward:15 key:3 chance:1 recovery:11 tackles:1 block:0 interception:1
    You can see that for Bradley and Edu, passed made, missed, and forward are about the same. Edu has made 2 key passes and created 1 scoring chance. Bradley has provided neither (corner kicks don’t count). On defense it is clear, Edu tackles (4) Bradley does not (1).
     
  6. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    What is the definition of "creating a scoring opportunity." Is it just a pass or does it include a player creating a shot for himself. And I'm curious how the numbers compare with another five match sample. Let's say the last five matches of the Gold Cup.
     
  7. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I'd said already that the Beckerman-Edu combo was totally DOA in my eyes. I actually don't have real issues with either player. Either one of them is welcome to stay or at least continue to compete for it, but not both together as a pairing.
     
  8. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Klinsman's answer:
    “So I know it’s kind of frustrating for Michael not starting a game, but there was Maurice that did really well lately for us,” Klinsmann added. “Right now, Kyle and Maurice start to read each other because they go into battles differently. I need to have midfielders understand that they have to go into this battle risking to lose it, but when the other guys reads it he’s going to win it for you. Maurice and Kyle are doing that really well right now, and that’s why it’s also difficult for Michael breaking back in.”

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/10/11/bradley-cast-unfamiliar-role-deep-us-pecking-order
     
  9. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Yes, I've read that, and I'm on record that I believe he's mistaken. More on Edu than on Beckerman, who, warts aside, has established his utility in a key role in the system. (Which is not to say that I couldn't see Edu in his role, or someone else for that matter.)
     
  10. manq360

    manq360 Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know CD is one of our main scorers, but what does this say about him being an attacking mid. I still think we need someone like Feilhaber to distribute the ball. I am not sold on Bradley instead of Edu and especially instead of Jones. I don't see him as a creating mid-fielder.

    Maybe, Williams and Feilhaber could work together well, with Edu or Jones in front of the back line. It is clear our defense has been better, since JK, so I suspect that we still need a DM out there. But this last game (thank goodness this wasn't counted), having all the defensive-minded mids did nothing to help the attack. And, as I have said on other threads, I am not sold on Jozy. We need a forward with some hustle.

    Hopefully, having LD and CD on the field at the same time will help. Is Shea good enough to play an attacking mid role with LD and CD on the wings? I don't get to watch him very often and don't know if he has ever played this role.
     
  11. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Shea plays with his head down a bit, doesn't move the ball quickly enough. He's got skill, speed, and physicality to burn, though, which makes him great at beating people 1v1, getting chances for himself or setting them up. The quick one-touch game through the middle isn't his strength.
     
  12. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yes, this x100000
     
  13. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Edu and Beckerman are working as a defensive pairing.

    If anybody didn't see this from Susaeta's blog post-Ecuador (it was buried in the comments section), it makes a lot of sense in terms of what we've seen happen so far. Edu and Beckerman were chosen as the pair that worked best together immediately *defensively,* and that was the first priority.

    The result of the plan below is experimenting with players with passing skills in the defensive line, and defensive skills in the center mids, exactly what's driving people crazy when the passers can't defend and the midfielders can't pass. But if you look at the first short term goals being building out of the back instead of booting it, and stronger defence out of the CM's, it all makes more sense.

    http://latinflavoredsoccer.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/5-things-i-watched-a-recap/#comments
     
  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The focus on central midfield is a mistake imo. 6/8 combos in central midfield are fairly common nowadays as that area tends to be staffed with players who can keep play ticking over rather than create scoring chances.

    Bob himself often used 6/8 combos and the team had few problems scoring--at least when Davies was healthy. The difference lay in the interiores used. Donovan and Dempsey manned the wide positions previous cycle whereas Klinnsman has used players like Bradley and Williams in those positions. I like as a fullback in the long run but it's not surprising he's created opportunities from a wide berth.

    If both Donovan and Dempsey are available then one can play forward while the other occupies an interior role in 442. If only one is available then that player should be in midfield.

    The key is getting creativity out of midfield. That creativity doesn't have to come from central midfield.

    The Bradley vs Edu/Beckerman comparisons aren't relevant as Bradley has been playing a wider role.
     
  15. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley played the #10/CAM in the Mexico game with Jones and Beckerman holding. He subbed in for Edu in the #8 role against Honduras and Ecuador. He has not played any wide role for Klinsman.

    Shea and Beasley have manned the left wide roles for Klinsman while Torres, Donovan, Rodgers, and most recently Williams have played the right wing role.
     
  16. FirstStar

    FirstStar Hustlin' for the USA

    Fulham Football Club
    Feb 1, 2005
    Time's Arrow
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neither Beckerman nor Edu have been completing passes into forward, dangerous positions. It's made the US uni-dimensional and easy to defend.

    I suspect this is not news to JK. I hope he fixes the problem.
     
  17. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really think Sacha could help there,especially without Torres/Holden.
     
  18. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup, I wanna see a Sacha/Jones combo as well as a Sacha/Williams combo. A few years down the road, we could transition to a (Holden, Torres, Sacha, Mix)/(Williams/Jones) midfield pairings with guys like Bradley coming in for the more attack minded CM is we're up a goal or to. I feel like Bradley is really good at finding decent outlet passes and starting counters. He's really a better midfielder when you're up a goal.
     
  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The OP covered this

    "Central midfielders Michael Bradley, Kyle Beckerman, Clint Dempsey, Maurice Edu, Jermaine Jones and Jose Torres created just one scoring chance between them in 1,082 combined minutes before Ecuador."

    That single scoring chance was created by Maurice Edu!
     
  20. moytoy12

    moytoy12 Member

    Jun 20, 2008
    Could not disagree more. This is exactly where the focus should be and during JK's brief tenure the center midfield has pretty much failed us.

    Give me one of the following as the more attacking option (depending on health): holden, torres, benny, adu, mix, sacha

    Give me one of the following as the more defensive option: Jones, Williams, Bradley, Edu, Beckerman
     
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    In the Ecuador match he hung back next Beckerman and then began attacking the wide positions Williams had been working.
     
  22. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Why? The team played with two deep central mids--who were typically natural 6s or 8s--previous cycle though the roles weren't differentiated.
     
  23. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I'm assuming the goal Dempsey scored was a chance? And it looked like he created some stuff to me. Ditto Torres.

    Still, aside from debates about what constitutes a 'chance', it should be obvious that midfield combos of: Edu/Beckerman, Edu/Jones, Edu/Bradley, Beckerman/Jones, Beckerman/Larentowicz, and Jones/Bradley aren't going to be too offensively gifted.

    We've gone almost exclusively double d-mid under JK, sometimes with DM/CM type players playing wide as well (Torres, Williams) or at top of the triangle in the CAM spot (Edu, Beckerman).

    The Torres/Edu combo was used in 2 games. But CAM's like Feilhaber, Kljestan, Bedoya, and Diskerud have been almost totally shut out (1 brief appearance for Kljestan, and he rode the bench IN Belgium and Larentowicz joined the MF when we were down a goal).

    Along with the CB selections, it's been my biggest criticism of JK is the overuse of CM/DM types.
     
  24. irish56

    irish56 Member+

    Oct 30, 2006
    indy
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Midfield problem can be addressed after JK sorts out all the possibilities. I just watched Fabian Johnson play for Hoffenheim and he impressed. JK has a lot of decisions to make when all of the pieces are healthy. Johnson,Jones,Johnson, Donovan, and Torres are all deserving starters, who weren't availible during the last friendlies. Add Holden to the mix, the team that we see in June could have a very different look to what we have seen from JK so far.
     
  25. manq360

    manq360 Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have not seen him play. There has been some confusion on this board as to the position he occupies. Is he left back, left wing or where?
     

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