It strikes me that Michael Laudrup and Kevin De Bruyne are very similar types of players, and I’m curious what others think of the comparison. IMO both are on the shortlist for being the best ever at providing the final ball. Both also provide a good bit of goals from the AM position. Laudrup was a better dribbler than De Bruyne, but I think De Bruyne is more physically imposing (despite not being taller), and maybe more consistent. Both have gotten similar recognition in Ballon D’or voting—getting some top 10 finishes but not really competing for winning the award (though De Bruyne has gotten closer, with his 3rd place finish this year). Both played on really talented club teams and won lots of league titles (Laudrup also won a CL and a couple more league titles than De Bruyne, but De Bruyne has a solid chance of ultimately equalling that). Both are from smaller European nations that had something of a golden generation during their time. Denmark actually won Euro 1992 without Laudrup, and, while Belgium hasn’t won anything with De Bruyne, they’ve gotten a little closer—making the World Cup SFs. Overall, I don’t think there’s a lot separating these two, and I really like both (I generally really like players who consistently make great final balls). Am starting to actually wonder whether De Bruyne may be even better than Laudrup though—which is much more a reflection on seeing De Bruyne as being fantastic than it is having any negative views of Laudrup. Thoughts?
More emphasis on this is required Paul pogba is merely a “better” dribbler than KDB Micheal laudrup is in a complete different league all together In his best form he was more dangerous than Zidane or Iniesta aswell Micheal laudrup was voted the best player of la liga 1974-1999 The vote was in 1999 Recency bias couldn’t propel “GOAT” Ronaldo nazario 1996/97 over him Nor rivaldo 1998/99 And then you have to think about the other players who had legendary seasons but didn’t spend long there Romario 1993/94 WPOTY And then the legendary seasons of players who spent a substantial amount of time there Cruyff 1973/74 WPOTY And then arguably the best striker of the 1980s decade(2nd at worst behind MVB) Hugo Sanchez And there is Diego Maradona passing through(his dribbling prime in Europe with his most dribbling goals in a single season during 1982/83 IMO) Some others like Bernd Schuster arguably the most technically gifted German player of all time Won la liga titles with Real Madrid,Barcelona and the European championship with Germany Not to mention other top 100 ATG candidates like stoichkov,Hagi or Koeman They are still talking about if KDB is better than David beckham(great player but not of the same level as the aforementioned players IMO) That’s a better debate in terms of skill set and career accolades Beckham assisted 2 goals in a single CL final,was 2nd place in ballon dor at a point and has a claim to being one of the few players in football history to have been a more dangerous crosser/long ball specialist then KDB Beckham was also as much(if not more)of a workhorse as him clocking obscene amount of kilometres per game https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2001/oct/14/sport.englandundersven https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/06/premier-league-team-of-the-season-optajoe-xi/ https://goalballlive.com/manchester-citys-running-stats-for-2018-19-revealed/ The most underrated aspect of his game IMO
Just to clarify, what he won was best *foreign* player in La Liga in that time period (note: I’m not really sure what this vote was, since I can only find record of it on Laudrup’s wikipedia, and it doesn’t say who the award is from). And I think that was fair because most of the foreign players who could conceivably have been above him just hadn’t been in La Liga very long in that time period. Ronaldo had had 1 season in La Liga at that point. Maradona had had 2 seasons in La Liga (both of which he missed lots of games in). Romario was in La Liga 1.5 years. Rivaldo had only been in La Liga three years at that point. I don’t really think any of those players had the longevity in the league at that point to get an award like that. Meanwhile, Cruyff was in La Liga several years in that period but his absolute prime was largely before that time period and his only La Liga title was 1973-1974 so was only half in the time period. I think it’s safe to say people weren’t voting Laudrup as actually having been a greater player than Cruyff. Figo had been there for several years at that point but hadn’t had his Ballon D’or year yet. And once you get beyond that, I think you start talking about great players but nevertheless ones that I personally think both Laudrup *and* De Bruyne are better than (Sanchez, Schuster, Stielike, Stoichkov, etc.). It’s also worth noting that there was actually an established published award for best foreign player of the year in La Liga (Don Balon Award), and Laudrup only won it once, while De Bruyne has won EPL player of the season (not limited to foreign players) twice already (not to mention winning Bundesliga player of the season once too). More generally, I also think one can make a good case for De Bruyne as being quite high up there amongst greatest EPL players ever (even without the “foreign player” caveat)—during a time period where the EPL is stronger and more stacked with worldwide talent than the 1974-1999 La Liga was. [EDIT: To be clear, I’m not saying he’s better than, for example, Cristiano, but All that said, I agree that the chasm in dribbling ability is very important. Laudrup is a lot better at dribbling, and maybe my post downplayed that. But De Bruyne is also a lot more consistent IMO and I didn’t emphasize that too much either. Ultimately, perhaps the answer is that Laudrup’s best possible performance is higher than De Bruyne’s while De Bruyne has more consistency.
I think as a pure playmaker, I'm still very happy to put KDB at least a tier below Laudrup. I feel comfortable rating Laudrup as superior at both dribbling and passing. The one type of chance creation I might have KDB above is crossing, and even then, it is mostly because I don't have great memory of Laudrup's passing, while KDB's crossing have left a clear mark in my brain. I think even in terms of off ball creation, Laudrup gets underrated because of how good he was on the ball. The man was absolutely excellent at moving around into pockets of space, and was not someone who only operated in the same zones all game. Also wonderful in tight spaces, better than KDB even, I think. More like an Iniesta or Modric, in this aspect. Having said all that, KDB is clearly a more well-rounded player. I don't think people realize how good KDB is at getting into goal-scoring positions. He's not even an overly aggressive player, but just picks his moments really well, usually into the flow of the attack, rather than forcing anything. Defensively, I think it's also fair to give KDB the cake here.
Excellent analysis, and I find myself agreeing with the vast majority of it. The one caveat I’d make is that, while I can agree with Laudrup being a superior overall playmaker due to superior dribbling, I’d clarify I don’t think I’d put Laudrup’s raw passing ahead (though I’m not sure you are doing that either). Which isn’t a knock on Laudrup’s passing. To me, these two are just pretty much both at the absolute pinnacle in history at making the final ball, such that I can’t really put one below the other (or below anyone really—they’re both tier 1 in history at that IMO).
In 1999, Laudrup was voted the Best Foreign Player in Spanish Football over the preceding 25-year period https://www.iffhs.com/legends/161 Cruyff didn’t even(hardly)play in the first half of 1973/74 Partly the reason his season his considered so legendary He missed all of September and most of October The ghost/phantom goal vs Atlético was on the 22nd of December 1973 Might aswell just say it was in 1974 The 5-0 vs Real Madrid was in February 1974 he was also on the ballon dor podium in 1975 Don Balón/foreign best player in 76/77 and 77/78 I don’t know about this superior longevity thing either(KDB vs laudrup) Laudrup was World Cup team of the tournament/FIFA 11 as late as 1998(aged 34 years old) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards#All-Star_Team EPL best player KDB is really better than stoichkov? Stoichkov the ballon dor winner of 1994 Ballon for runner up in 1992 World Cup golden shoe winner with Bulgaria in 1994 Euros team of the tournament in 1996 European golden shoe in 1989/1990(partly what won him his move to Barcelona) 5x la liga titles 3 Bulgarian league titles 1 champions league Even the UEFA Cup winners Cup won in his 2nd stint with Barcelona(past his peak)but go look what he did against Barcelona in the same competition several years prior scoring 3 goals across 2 legs in the SF He was a champion of everything at club level Excelling at a high level in international tournaments aswell A player cannot he expected to do more than what stoichkov did with a team like Bulgaria in World Cup 1994 and Euro 1996 KDB is arguably the best midfielder in the world over a 5~year period(Modric?) The ibrahimovic of midfielders(very consistent league performer at a high level but that’s it) I don’t think KDB would be as much of an outlier in other generations He’s a work horse,with good dribbling technique,ATG ability at providing crosses/ breaking the line passes and a nice shot from out of the box I honestly see him in the same class as gerrard (in a hypothetical world where Gerrard played for a team with £100 million players warming the bench) Maybe De Bruyne could be slightly better but there’s not much in it Remember when lampard/Gerrard were in their peak 2004-2009 they had to contend with Ronaldinho between 2004-2007 Kaka depending on whether you want to define him as a midfielder And then the best ever season of Xavi in 2008/09 There were a lot of high level performers in their peak operating in that time Recognition was that easy to come by Kevin de Bruyne came at the right time IMO(2015) The decline/retirement of xavi/iniesta/Alonso Vidal was never fancy enough(technically) James Rodriguez/Pogba/coutinhos promise/potential never really manifested While Kroos and Modric played for the same team(having to share all the plaudits until 2018)
A few things on this: 1. I am still not sure where that Best Foreign Player in the last 25 years award comes from. What you just linked to just states he got the award but doesn’t say from whom. And nothing else I can find on this says from whom either. It’s a bit of a ghost in terms of figuring out what it is. Not saying it’s not real, but I am just noting I have no idea what it actually is, so I also don’t know how seriously to take it. 2. As for Cruyff, I think he’d probably have had a good shout to get the award, but the fact that the time period doesn’t coincide with his absolute prime and he only half won 1 league title (since it is one title that was the 1973-1974 season) in that time period is probably why he didn’t win it. I think we can both agree that no one would put Laudrup above Cruyff as a player, but I do think it is conceivable to put him above Cruyff as a La Liga player from 1974-1999, since Laudrup had 5 La Liga titles in that timeframe and Cruyff only sort of had one. But I’d also say it’d be conceivable to put De Bruyne’s EPL stint recently above Cruyff’s La Liga stint in that time period, for similar reasons. Neither is a better player than Cruyff though, obviously. 3. Yes, you can list achievements of Stoichkov—he was a great player—but I think Laudrup and De Bruyne are both better. And I certainly think they were better league players than Stoichkov was in La Liga (which is what that award you’re talking about is based on). Remember, Stoichkov’s biggest achievement is his Ballon D’or (which, by the way, France Football has said he would not have gotten if non-Europeans were considered, as they are today). But, as with pretty much every Ballon D’or in a World Cup year, that Ballon D’or was largely on the back of his World Cup performance—which is not something that would be taken into account for purposes of an award about the best player in La Liga. And his 2nd place for Ballon D’or was of course heavily influenced by his team’s European Cup win that year, which again is not relevant to being the best player in La Liga. In terms of La Liga play (which is what that award is clearly about), Stoichkov never won La Liga foreign player of the year even once (nor did he ever finish top 10 in Ballon D’or voting in years except those two years where his teams did great in bigger competitions than La Liga), so I don’t know that beating him out for best foreign player of 25 years in La Liga is hugely meaningful here. The bottom line is that most of Stoichkov’s achievements—and most of what you listed above—are achievements in competitions outside La Liga, and those are irrelevant to an award about best La Liga player, so Laudrup finishing ahead of him in an award about being the best La Liga player is not at all surprising to me. I ultimately think De Bruyne’s league career has been better than Stoichkov’s La Liga career was too. 4. I think calling De Bruyne just a very consistent league performer shortchanges him. This is someone who has won Player of the Season in his league 3 out of the last 8 years (2014-2015, 2019-2020, and 2021-2022). And one of the years he didn’t win that award (2017-2018), his team set the record for most EPL points ever, and he was voted the team’s Player of the Season, so he was the best player on possibly the greatest EPL team ever. He was also voted the EPL Player’s Player of the Year and named to the EPL Team of the Year another season (2020-2021—a season in which he probably would have also won EPL Player of the Season except he missed a third of the season), and he was also voted his team’s player of the year in another year (2015-2016). In the Champions League, he has been named to UEFA’s Champions League squad of the season each of the last 5 years. And, while he didn’t take over any major NT tournament (neither did Laudrup, though), he had some really strong performances in WC 2014, Euro 2016, WC 2018, and Euro 2020. More generally, IFFHS has done a world team of the year each year from 2017 onwards. De Bruyne has made the world team of the year every single year except 2018–and that was almost certainly because he barely played the second half of that calendar year due to injuries.
It was at the very end of 1999, so it meant the last quarter of the century. The runners-up, 3rd place etc. are not mentioned by Mundo Deportivo. In terms of Cruijff this meant it captures one pretty mediocre season (1975-76) or half season, and two seasons - or 1.5 seasons - where he played like the world's best (1976-1978), nutmegging people at will, creating chances at will, playing as a libero etcetera and was recognized as such (by the Brazilian press and Placar!). Two times runners-up in the league, where one might well argue they had won at least one if he didn't miss (controversially) a handful games. La Liga was really extremely rough at that period (FIFA came with the red card for foul play in 1982). Apparently it is not meant to include the games in a national team jersey, or the European performances but as always it is rather iffy whether voters really separate those things. You can say Laudrup had a half dozen solid and reliable La Liga campaigns to show, and that was more than anyone else at that time period. Including the volatile Stoichkov, Sanchez or Schuster (who was there for more than a decade but really had some extreme lows, as well as that nasty knee injury). Who even within praised campaigns had some lows (assaulting the referee?). In the sense of the absolute numbers (about a half dozen) or the proportion of total seasons (total seasons/good seasons) it is a very defensible choice. But I wouldn't read too much into it or take it too serious.
This seems to be a reference to when that 1974-1999 award was presented (with Arconada taking a 'Spanish Player' version) International Football Hall of Champions (www-hallofchampions-com.translate.goog) It is the equivalent of Don Balon's yearly best Spanish and Foreign Player awards I suppose, for a 25 year period. El Pais did give Laudrup 1 and a half awards (including a tie with Romario), interestingly neither recognition being for the season Don Balon awarded him (the Don Balon award is based on average ratings I believe isn't it, but not sure how exactly the El Pais award worked but suspect it would be more a case of choosing players after the season ended and for 93/94 thinking a joint award seemed fair enough; by the way I assume the 25 years Don Balon awards were not based on average ratings although it could be possible to check if that would result in Arconada and Laudrup taking them I guess?) Spain - Footballer of the Year (rsssf.org) There's no award by El Pais for Laudrup's first two seasons of course; for the Real Madrid ones he didn't take their award, though he did feature in the 94/95 ESM Team of the Season. My call would be Laudrup based on overall ability, but for sure De Bruyne has become one of the best players in the world recently, and the similarity they share is indeed the final ball end product (in different ways mostly, but both experts at that).
Well, there you can read the 'award' coincided with DB their 25th anniversary. An award for the best foreign player since DB existed. Since October 1975, that means.
This is not right. He got that in 1993-94 (Laudrup two years earlier). What wikipedia tells you is incorrect. If you look at the original prints though and the match ratings (as well as rsssf, which has sometimes also a typo; like the 1984 World Soccer award) then it is clear Stoichkov received this in 1993-94. Not Romario. There might be a number of things going against Stoichkov. Hard to know what it is. At the very least there is the circumstance of him arriving later than Laudrup in the league, and also leaving earlier. Five successive league titles as #10 for two different teams is just a very strong narrative (and achievement). And Stoichkov regularly humiliated referees (in ways the volleyballer Messi did at the WC, with 50000 blood-thirsty fans to unleash in the stands, showing who the boss is), as well as physically assaulting them.
I should point out even if it weakens my argument that Laudrup only started winning real things In 1991 with stoichkov and not before @lessthanjake Was stoichkov really inconsistent in la liga? The number of league goals wasn’t too high for him at Barcelona But then there is the small matter of Ronald Koeman Stoichkov 1991/92 scored 17 league goals(0 penalties) Koeman scored 10 penalties in la liga 1991/92 To put this into some perspective Messi has never scored more penalties than this in any la liga campaign And cristiano Ronaldo has scored more only once in la liga(12 pens in la liga 2011/12) According to transfermarket stoichkov took 36 penalties in his career and only missed 2. The conversation rate in a Barcelona shirt was extremely high(12 taken and 1 missed) Stoichkov could’ve easily had 27 league goals that season This wasnt Messi from the spot In la liga 1992/93 stoichkov scored 20 league goals(1 penalty) Koeman 1992/93 scored 9 penalties in la liga Now I’m not denying Koeman was a spot kick specialist(he definitely was IMO) but we can’t pretend he was that much better than stoichkov and that the Bulgarian was denied of many extra easy goals. Penalties that he probably played a larger part in winning than Koeman to be frank Let’s not also forget stoichkov had to share FK responsibilities with Koeman Probably denying him of an extra 2 to 3 league goals per season Stoichkov was a FK specialist (not of the absolute highest calibre but still very good) It’s not inconceivable that as the primary set piece/penalty taker at Barcelona he could’ve hit 30 goals in 1 league campaign 1992/93 is his best bet and then how would the voters look at him next to Van basten? MVB pipped him to the 1992 ballon dor by 18 points Van basten 1991/92 scored 25 league goals(9 penalties)in Serie A Stoichkov 1991/92 scored 17 goals(0 penalties) in la liga Ronald Koeman 1991/92 scored 10 penalties in La Liga Barcelona 1991/92 won the European Cup AC Milan 1991/92 didn’t qualify for the European cup Stoichkov with Koemans penalties is definitely enough to shift the narrative IMO And then we wouldn’t be having this conversation as no player even won the ballon dor twice in the 1990s The way you downplayed this guy is something else I don’t even like,support or share any sort of affinity with Barcelona their players,history whatever But how can you compare this guy to some EPL legend(flop on the international stage and champions league) League legends have their own separate category (ibrahimovic,Henry,KDB etc) They are not comparable to players who excelled in multiple stages and in different conditions Micheal laudrup being one of them and Hristo stoichkov being another Don’t let that 1992 Euro win of Denmark without laudrup confuse you They had some godly version of Peter schmiechel between the sticks and frankly they wouldn’t have been in the tournament had it not been for some bullshit politics influencing proceedings https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...anovic-euro-92-taken-away-better-than-denmark
@carlito86 I definitely think the 1992 Ballon d'Or went to the right player. Both for the year and the season. MvB had also a high number of (clever) assists. The OPTA stats for euro 1992 show him among the very best chance creators for example (and played superbly against Germany, without scoring). Without scoring a goal (not overlooking the wrongly cancelled ones), the algorithms show him among the top 3 or top 5 performers of the tournament. Not really performing or playing for the national team counted against someone in those years, see also the years 1990 and 1994. The Serie A sort of delivered the Ballon d'Or winner by default at that point in time. It went to the overall better player (more technical and tactical rounded) and better performer. Stoichkov didn't play very well in the 1992 EC final for example. Had 0 goals and 0 assists in the Real Madrid games (playing okay rather than great). But I agree that him taking penalties and free kicks changes the picture a fair bit, and he then might win. Might well add 15-20 goals across all competitions. But strongly disagree he was 'robbed' of the Ballon d'Or. The year 1994 and the FIFA award is a more interesting proposition (he was as good or marginally better as Romario in La Liga and miles better in the Champions League; in the World Cup Romario with the better technical play and exploits but perhaps not having a game like Stoichkov had vs Germany).
KDB is a better crosser of the ball, but that's really it for me. Laudrup is better at any other type of pass, is a superior dribbler, more creative/inventive, much better combinations etc etc. Another thing I'd certainly give KDB is being better at transitions, bigger gas tank and ability to cover ground during transitions. As a playmaker though I have Laudrup ahead granted KDB could be a good versus discussion for him in terms of overall greatness rather than ability.
In order to avoid going off too off topic, I think we we need to go back to why we are talking about Stoichkov in this thread. We are talking about Stoichkov in a thread comparing Laudrup and De Bruyne because you pointed out that there’s an award that Laudrup won for best foreign La Liga player 1974-1999 and he won it over Stoichkov (the implication being that De Bruyne wouldn’t win such an award over Stoichkov). Thus, the only thing that matters here is that an award deemed Laudrup’s La Liga career to be superior to Stoichkov’s La Liga career. Thus, nothing about Stoichkov’s NT career or performances in the European Cup or other leagues is at all relevant here. The only relevant question is whether it is notable for purposes of this discussion that Laudrup’s La Liga career was deemed superior to Stoichkov’s La Liga career. And I don’t think it is. Stoichkov was a great La Liga player, of course. And your point about penalties is a good point to contextualize his goalscoring record there.* But Stoichkov won the best foreign player of the year in La Liga award one time (Wikipedia says zero, but Puck claims wiki is wrong and it was actually once, and I’m willing to defer to Puck on that). And he never once finished top 10 in Ballon D’or voting except in two years where he achieved great success in more important competitions (the European Cup in 1992 and the World Cup in 1994). In other words, La Liga performances on their own were never enough to put him in the top 10 in Ballon D’or voting (which was easier to make at the time, since only European players could get votes). Meanwhile, in contrast, De Bruyne has won player of the season (not just foreign players but for all players) in 3 of his last 8 league seasons. One of the 5 seasons he did not win the media-voted player of the season, he won the Players’ Player of the Season award. One of the remaining 4 seasons, he won his team’s player of the season award when they got the highest point total in the league’s history (so he was the best player on arguably the league’s best ever team). And he also won his team’s player of the season award another year. And those performances have driven him into three top-10 finishes in Ballon D’or voting (which were not based on winning other more major trophies, since he did not do so), including a third place finish. So, ultimately, just like Laudrup may have been a better La Liga player than Stoichkov, I think it is safe to say De Bruyne has been a better league player than Stoichkov was in La Liga. Thus, I don’t see much significance for purposes of his thread in Laudrup being deemed a better La Liga player than Stoichkov. * Note: While Stoichkov would’ve of course had more goals had he shot penalties more, I will note that in every single season he was in La Liga, the player who led the league in scoring had more open-play league goals than Stoichkov (determined by looking at the record of all goals for those players on transfermarkt). And it was never actually even close (the closest he got was being 4 behind the leader and was mostly much further away than that).
I think it’s almost certainly true that in terms of sheer ability, Laudrup is ahead. But, with Laudrup, a big issue was inconsistency and lack of effort. In essence, there’s a general consensus that his actual performances did not consistently live up to his ability (which of course says a lot about his outrageous ability, since his performances were obviously still amazing). But I wonder if one conclusion we might draw here is that Laudrup could reach higher heights than KDB but may not have ultimately been “greater” due in large part to lesser consistency/effort.
For the last part to be meaningful we would have to determine how many penalties stoichkov actually won 1 earned penalty has the same weight as an open play goal for me I’d be willing to wager stoichkov won more penalties for Barcelona in every single season between 1990/91 and 1992/93 Romario was the one causing havoc in and around the box in 1993/94 And you completely ignored the part about set piece goals too Sharing set piece duties with Koeman probably if not definitely denied him an extra 10-15 league goals between 1990/91 and 1993/94 This is a player who scored freekicks in the World Cup(Germany 1994) Euro(France 1996) La liga(I remember 2 vs Valladolid 91/92 and Atlético Madrid 93/94) UEFA super cup (werder Bremen 92/93) He had 20~ FKs for club and country despite not being the set piece taker of his teams which is a lot International football probably had a lot of weight in those days but those 1992 and 1994 ballon dor placements can’t wholly of had to do with his NT performances Besides this Many of the same arguments that are being used in favour of laudrup can also be used in favour of stoichkov aswell The Bulgarian forward was completely superior dribbler to KDB for 1 and better scorer(raw numbers and importance of goals in all stages) I’d say stoichkov was a world class crosser too on his day(I have examples) without being in the same league as KDB Regarding some other points you raised about maradona,Rivaldo and R9 not being in La Liga long enough before the 1999 cut off point I remember R9 was voted the best player of Serie A 1997-2007(he had less than 100 apps there) When I can find the source I will post it If your peak is considered high enough people who understand football will give you the credit you deserve This from 2010 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...remier-League--Nos-10-1.html#comments-1236718 24 year old cristiano Ronaldo who had left in 2009 with less than 200 PL appearances was ranked 3rd behind giggs and Henry You can check the usually negative daily mail comments section and no one who commented 12 years ago even had a problem with his placement(there are some comments about Rooney being overrated though)
I would reiterate everything in my prior post—the vast majority of which is not addressed by you here. I’d also add that you’re splitting hairs about Stoichkov. Ultimately, this 25-year award we have been talking about was apparently by the same Don Balon that either gave Stoichkov zero or 1 foreign player of the year award (wiki says 0, Puck says it is actually 1). You can regard Stoichkov as highly as you want, but it’s fairly clear the publication that chose Laudrup over Stoichkov (which is the reason we are talking about Stoichkov) didn’t really regard him as being consistently at the top of the league, so being rated above Stoichkov as a league player in their estimation isn’t that meaningful, particularly when this whole discussion is ultimately in relation to someone (KDB) who has repeatedly won league player of the season awards. By the way, this really doesn’t matter much and you should focus on my above paragraph, but, since it was a focus of your post, I should note that you pretty clearly overstate the amount of free kick goals Stoichkov might’ve gotten if he hadn’t shared FK duties with Koeman. Koeman had 6 direct free kick goals in La Liga in the years Stoichkov was there. And, of course, the reason they used Koeman over Stoichkov was because Koeman was superior to Stoichkov at free kicks, at least in the situations that they went with him over Stoichkov, so presumably if anything Stoichkov would’ve gotten fewer than that if he’d taken Koeman’s attempts. Therefore, assuming Stoichkov would’ve scored 10-15 more FK goals if he had the chances that Koeman got 6 FK goals from strikes me as almost certainly very incorrect.
FWIW, since there’s been some statements that De Bruyne is merely “some EPL legend” who hasn’t been good elsewhere, I also want to note that De Bruyne has not only been an undeniably great league performer—league player of the season 3 of the last 8 seasons (including once in the Bundesliga too), players’ player of the season another season, team’s player of the season 2 more seasons (including one where his team set the league points record)—but has also been great in other competitions. Just some points of reference: - De Bruyne has been in the Champions League squad of the season 5 straight seasons. He was also in the Europa League squad of the season in 2014-2015. So basically, he has been in the squad of the season in European competition in 6 of the last 8 seasons. - De Bruyne performed quite well in WC 2014, Euro 2016, WC 2018, and Euro 2020. For instance, WhoScored ratings had him rated 13th, 2nd, 14th, and 5th highest in those competitions respectively. Similarly, SofaScore ratings had him rated 22nd, 5th, 16th, and 2nd highest in those competitions respectively. He was only rated as okay in this most recent World Cup, but De Bruyne has basically been an elite player in 4 out of the 5 major NT competitions he has been in. - He also has been really good in domestic cup competitions. While WhoScored doesn’t do FA Cup ratings and as far as I can tell SofaScore doesn’t having player rankings (probably due to the low sample size of matches each season), in the FA Cup over the years SofaScore has given De Bruyne an average rating of 7.72—a very high average rating. And for what it’s worth, he also has an average SofaScore rating of 7.66 in the English League Cup (ratings only beginning in 2017-2018). And while there aren’t ratings for it, he was Wolfsburg’s best player in the 2014-2015 season they won the German Cup. So he has performed really well in domestic cups—and ultimately has won 2 main domestic cups, along with 5 English League Cups.
I’m just going to take a very wild guess that you took this from transfermarket(a very incomplete secondary source for classical players in particular) Even pure common sense dictates that a team like Barcelona wouldn’t stick with using someone as a number 1 set piece taker who scores 6 FKs across 6 league campaigns LOL Or five seasons excluding 1989/90(the season before stoichkovs arrival) Let’s move on from stoichkov anyways The 25 year award for best player in La Liga Was given to Micheal laudrup And he won it against serious competitors Some of the most technically gifted players of ALL time passed through la liga 1974-1999 Not speed merchants/jokers Don Balón may of awarded laudrup only 1 MVP during his playing career But that’s maybe because the standard of competition was demonstrably higher Did you think of this? Winning the PL MVP over Salah is defintely not like winning the la liga best foreign award over stoichkov or Romário The goal scorers with very limited all round were not as highly acclaimed as they are today Salah 17/18 with his 32 league goals for Liverpool and limited all round(despite the assists) Would just be like spanish Striker Manolo scoring 27 goals in 27 la liga matches playing for Atlético Madrid in 1991/92 Manolo with 27 league goals at a rate of 1 goal per match lost the 1991/92 Don Balón award for best Spainsh player to Elduayen a Spanish goalkeeper who was never even capped for his country Laudrup was probably a top 3 “podium level player” in la liga every season between 1990/91and 1992/93 probably top 5 in 1993/94 even with his injuries The players above him in those seasons are really just so much better than KDBs nearest competitors I’ve covered this before The level of the very best performing players in the premier league has dropped There are really no outstanding players anymore Outside of KDB there are 0 Something that even whoscored confirms These are the seasons KDB was voted MVP according to you Minimum 2000 league minutes played 2017/18 Kevin de Bruyne 7.80 Mohammed salah 7.69 Eden hazard 7.69 Harry Kane 7.60 David Silva 7.58 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2017-2018 2019/20 Kevin de Bruyne 7.97 Ricardo pereira 7.50 Adama traore 7.49 Sadio mane 7.45 Mohammed Salah 7.40 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020 2021/22 Kevin de Bruyne 7.63 Mohammed Salah 7.54 Trent Alexander Arnold 7.52 Son Heung min 7.51 Harry Kane 7.45 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2021-2022 whoscored doesn’t go all the way back to 1991 but I will take the 3 seasons with the highest level of individual performance since 2009/10(not even half of the premier leagues history) 2009/10 Didier drogba 8.32 Cesc fabregas 8.25 Frank lampard 7.95 Wayne Rooney 7.91 Abou diaby 7.70 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2009-2010 2016/17 https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2014-2015 5 different players rated between 7.97 and 7.60(the best level of KDB) https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014 6 different players rated above 7.60 with 1 outlier season in Luís Suarez(8.43) I’m telling you there are no outstanding players in the premier league anymore outside of KDB The peak of Salah his nearest competitor over a 5 year period is honestly average/good he is just a system player with good finishing and limited technique The is no world class technician who has the G+A statistics of Salah in the premier league but would only average 7.40-7.70 on whoscoreds algorithm Something is undeniably missing in him In reality those 3 MVP awards of KDB are just not nearly as meaningful as you are attempting to portray them to be
To boil this down, your argument is that KDB isn’t that great because you say that the EPL doesn’t really have great players in the last several years, and therefore that being the EPL’s best player isn’t that meaningful (or at least is much less meaningful than being a top player in La Liga a few decades ago). That argument seems quite unlikely to be true just by understanding changes in world club football in the last several decades. As we all know, there’s been a massive consolidation of top talent in the top 4-5 European leagues, whereas in the past other countries’ leagues were able to keep a far higher percent of their country’s talent. And amongst those top 4-5 European leagues, the EPL is the one with the most money and the highest number of major clubs, and therefore generally is accepted to be able to get the most talent of all. So that’s a major reason to expect the EPL to have more talent than La Liga did decades ago. In essence, the top few European leagues have more talent than any league did several decades ago, and the EPL is arguably at the very top of that. A related reason we’d also expect today’s EPL to be stronger is that there used to be rules that allowed only 3 foreign players per team—which meant that each country’s league had to be almost entirely made up of players from that country. Again, this drastically limits the talent level in these leagues compared to today’s rules—since you can get more talent by getting more people from around the world—though obviously a limited amount of top talent could make it to La Liga back then by being one of the limited number of foreign players. To provide some data that aptly demonstrates the strength of the current EPL, the makeup of Ballon D’or voting in the last several years seems to pretty clearly refute the idea that the EPL right now has less top talent than leagues like the 1990’s La Liga. Here’s the number of Ballon D’or nominees that play in the EPL in the last several years: 2022: 15 out of 30 (50%) 2021: 14 out of 30 (47%) 2020: No Ballon D’or awarded, but the EPL had 5 out of 11 (45%) vote getters for Best FIFA Male Player award 2019: 16 out of 30 (53%) 2018: 12 out of 30 (40%) For reference, here’s the number of Ballon D’or vote recipients in La Liga in the 1990-1996 time period in which Laudrup played there: 1990: 1 out of 23 (4%) 1991: 5 out of 31 (16%) 1992: 3 out of 21 (14%) 1993: 3 out of 30 (10%) 1994: 5 out of 28 (18%) 1995: 7 out of 34 (21%) 1996: 7 out of 32 (22%) It is manifestly clear that today’s EPL has a much higher percent of the world’s top players than the early-mid 1990’s La Liga did. And, I’ll note that this holds true for the entirety of that 1974-1999 time period, in which La Liga only has between 1 and 5 Ballon D’or vote recipients virtually every single year. So I just don’t see how one could truly believe that KDB should be downplayed compared to Michael Laudrup on the grounds of his league not having as many top players. It’s just objectively the opposite of the truth, in a pretty shockingly stark way. The only argument you could possibly try to make otherwise would just be some sort of argument that top players in the 1990s were simply better than top players now, so that somehow a league with about 50% of the top players now doesn’t have as many great players as a league that had 4-22% of the top players in the world in the early-mid 1990’s. If you truly believe that, then okay, but that’s really just rampant nostalgia talking. The fact is that the EPL today is pretty clearly objectively stronger and more filled with top talent than La Liga was in the 1974-1999 time period, and Kevin De Bruyne has pretty clearly been the league’s best performing player in recent years. EDIT: Please also note that you say the players above Laudrup in Don Balon voting each year “are really just so much better than KDBs nearest competitors,” but, for example, one of the people that won it in the years we are talking about was Miroslav Dukic. If you think Miroslav Dukic is “really just so much better” than anyone in the EPL right now, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Interesting comparison. Their final ball are about equal, fantastic through ball. But the different is Laudrup had better close control, better dribbler so he could make a through pass in tighter space, harder situation. De Bruyne has better long ball and his cross is incredible. De Bruyne also is a better goal scorer. But for now i still pick Laudrup over him. Mostly because of his style.
Kevin de Bruyne(Manchester city) 60 PL goals(4 penalties) 221 appearances 0.24 non penalty goals per game Micheal laudrup(Barcelona) 40 goals(4 penalties) 166 appearances 0.22 non penalty goals per game No need to even count how many more goals Manchester City have been averaging per season compared to the early 90s Barcelona No need to count how many goals/assists/appearances KDB had when Manchester City recorded 98 points in 2018/19 Pl https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Premier_League Manchester City 98 points 95 PL goals KDB PL 18/19 2 goals+2 assists Please remind me the last time Barcelona was able to score 95 goals with Messi contributing 2 goals+2 assists Cristiano,Cruyff,Maradona Etc And you can also remind us when any of laudrups teams ever scored 95 goals in a single season @lessthanjake The difference between a player who gains a ballon dor vote but isn’t shortlisted vs 90% of professional players in Europe’s top 5 leagues is probably 0 or nothing It’s like the difference between the 50th and 100th best player in any given season https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2021-2022 50th highest ranked player Raphinha 6.96 100th highest ranked player Mohammed salisu:6.82 0.14 difference points=splitting hairs The premier league has no super stars only makeshift/make believe ones The ones who stay reach a certain level The ones who leave go beyond this Cristiano,Suarez,Bale even Henry escaped to piggy bank off Messi,Xavi and co Ballon dor podium players in La Liga 1974-1999 Cruyff (Barcelona) 1974:first place 1975:3rd place Bernd Schuster(Barcelona) 1985:3rd place Paulo Futre(Atlético Madrid) 1987:2nd place Emilio Butragueño 1987:3rd place Hristo Stoichkov(Barcelona) 1992:2nd place 1994:1st place Ronaldo nazario(Barcelona) 1997:first place Rivaldo (Barcelona) 1999:first place La liga 1974-1999 Ballon dor placements of real significance 1st place winners Four 2nd place Two 3rd place Three 9 podium positions over 25 years Premier league 1991-2022 31 year period Cristiano Ronaldo(Manchester United) 2008:1st place 2007:2nd place 2009:2nd place Micheal Owen(Liverpool) 2001:first place Thierry Henry 2003:3rd place Frank lampard 2005:2nd place Eric Cantona 1993:3rd place Steven gerrard 2005:3rd place You take away cristiano Ronaldos podium position and the premier league averaged less than 1 ballon dor podium position every 10 years lol For the record KDB 2022 is the first PL player to have a ballon dor podium position since the 2000s Before smartphones,Twitter etc Edit I forgot about Jorginho 2021,Mane 2022 and Van Dijk Before 2019 the premier averaged less than 1 podium representative every 10 years Jorginho got it no doubt for the Euro championship not his PL performances(check his ratings) And Mane for Afcon(check his PL ratings and the drop off from previous years)
Reason I'm not a fan of using Ballon d'Or to judge is that even during the English league's most dominant period, they only had one Ballon d'Or podium finisher in Daglish, with a silver in 1983. Between the mid-70s to mid-80s, English teams performed better than anyone by quite a distance in European competitions and had just one podium finish to show for it. Also, prior to KDB and Mane in 2021, let's not forget that Jorginho and VVD were also awarded podium finishes when their team did very well in the UCL. So at least there's recognition there, unlike what the Liverpool and Forest players had to go through.