MetroStars Off-Season Analysis Thread

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by Onionsack, Nov 27, 2004.

  1. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As the off season comes upon us there will be many rumors, ideas, and analysis for any and all off season moves by the club. THis thread is an attempt to use the collective efforts of the MetroStar supporters to answer questions pertianing to our roster. As you know there are rule changes this season that effect the overall balance of the club.

    Please help me by adding your knowledge here as i am sure i do not have it all sorted yet..consider this the first draft.



    EDIT: My preview post seams to have went off a little prematurely..hasn't happened to me since high school :eek: The rest will come soon.
     
  2. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    CURRENT METROSTARS ROSTER

    • Kenny Arena..................... M............. 1981-02-06
    • Tenywa Bonseu............... M-D........... 1976-10-28
    • Michael Bradley................. M............. 1987-07-31.......... P-40
    • Ricardo Clark.................... M............. 1983-02-10
    • Gilberto Flores.................. M............. 1983-07-05
    • Sergio Galvan Rey.............. F............. 1973-06-09............ SI
    • Eddie Gaven..................... M............. 1986-10-25 (Graduated from P-40)
    • Cornell Glen...................... F............. 1981-10-21 ...........TI
    • Amado Guevara................. M............ 1976-05-02 ........... SI
    • Chris Leitch...................... D............. 1979-04-01
    • Mark Lisi.......................... M............. 1977-10-11
    • Mike Magee...................... F.............. 1984-09-02
    • Jeff Parke......................... D............. 1982-03-23
    • Eddie Pope........................ D............. 1973-12-24
    • Tim Regan....................... D-M........... 1981-06-27
    • Seth Stammler................... D............. 1981-09-29
    • Fabian Taylor..................... F............. 1980-04-13.......... SI
    • Joselito Vaca..................... M............. 1982-08-12 .........TI
    • Jonny Walker.................... GK ............1974-09-13
    • Zach Wells....................... GK............. 1981-02-24
    • John Wolyniec.................... F............. 1977-01-24


    According to MLSnet the rosters changes for next year are:

    1) ROSTER SIZES: In 2005 each MLS team will have 28 total roster spots comprised of 18 senior players and 10 developmental players. Developmental players can only be 24 years old or younger.​

    Currently the Club has 21 player on the books breaked down as followed:

    • 18 Full roster players
    • 3 Developmental players (2 TI's, 1 P-40)

    This leaves the club 7 Developmental slots avalible to fill.


    2)SENIOR INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS: Starting next season each team will be allowed four senior internationals, foreign players not holding green cards who are 25 years of age and older during a given season, an increase from the three-man senior international limit in 2004.​

    From what i can tell we only have 3 SI's and possible 4 (Glenn?) on the books. Do we even have room for another SI if everyone returns? If we do remember that all SI's will count towards the 18 man roster.

    QUESTIONS....
    • Is Glenn considered a SI?
    • IS Talyor staying on the books for next year?
    • Does Bonseu have a green card or his he an SI?

    3) YOUTH INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS: Starting in 2005 every MLS team will have three slots for youth international players, foreign players not holding green cards who are 24 years of age and younger during a given season. Youth international players can be signed to either senior player contracts or developmental player contracts.​

    I think we have 2 TI's right now but i am really unsure.

    QUESTIONS
    • Can you be a TI if at some point in the season you turn 25 or can you just be 24 at any point in the season to be a TI?
    • WHo are our TI's on the books for next year? Help.

    Assuming we only have on TI next year we can add 2 more and I believe all three will not count towards our 18 man roster. Can some one else clearify this?





    Anyone able to help me sort this out?
     
  3. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Ok i think I found a link on MLS that helps clear up these questions.
    http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/about/league.jsp?section=regulations&content=overview

    Youth Internationals: Any young international player will count as a Youth International until the beginning of the year in which they are due to reach the age of 25, at which time they will be re-classified as a Senior International.(Some international players younger than 25 can be considered Senior Internationals due to their contract structure).​


    So it apprears if the roster stays the same we have 3 SI slots filled with G-vara, Taylor, and SGR.

    Glenn, since the year begining 2005 is the year of his 24th birthday, can still be classified as a TI as long as his contract doesn't restrict it.
     
  4. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    it looks like the contract restrictions making TIs count as SIs might be thrown out (see Fine Print thread, FC Dallas forum)

    Bonseu is a SI

    Haven't heard if Taylor's option to buy will be exercised (on loan this year)

    Glenn, Vaca (if re-signed), and Gilberto (if back) will be TIs.

    if you turn 25 during any point in the year, you're a SI (not sure about the time period between MLS Cup and 12/31 - MLS often states "calender year" on its rules, but for TI/SIs it's clear any point in the year (I think!) - Diego Walsh was a SI for 2004 - (1979-12-08) (you've found the answer while i'm writing this I think)

    about DEV's: Gilberto since DEV and TI this year at 22 y/o next year might be DEV again (few DEV players are here on loan, so it's a unique situation). Stammler can be DEV again. Bradley remains p40. Arena can be DEV again, though some suggest there's a 2 year limit, I don't think there is. The reason Stammler and Arena can be DEV again is cause 24 y/o's can be "senior dev" if they were dev as 23 y/o's (Nugent, Graham, and Traeger were senior dev's in 2004). So Regan and Glen have no potential to be moved down to DEV, since on the senior roster in 2004. Wells might could be moved down to DEV (not that he would) cause GK's can be DEV through 25 y/o (Foss).
     
  5. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    They can be either. Depends on the contract. Glenn, Vaca, Brenes, and Taylor were all senior. Gilberto was DEV. Gilberto can be DEV again, it's a unique situation where he's probably on a very cheap loan to get playing time and foster club relations.
     
  6. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    CURRENT METROSTARS ROSTER

    • Kenny Arena..................... M............. 1981-02-06.......DEV
    • Tenywa Bonseu............... M-D........... 1976-10-28........... SI
    • Michael Bradley................. M............. 1987-07-31.......... P-40
    • Ricardo Clark.................... M............. 1983-02-10
    • Gilberto Flores.................. M............. 1983-07-05 ...........TI
    • Sergio Galvan Rey.............. F............. 1973-06-09............SI
    • Eddie Gaven..................... M............. 1986-10-25
    • Cornell Glen...................... F............. 1981-10-21 ...........TI
    • Amado Guevara................. M............ 1976-05-02 ............SI
    • Chris Leitch...................... D............. 1979-04-01
    • Mark Lisi.......................... M............. 1977-10-11
    • Mike Magee...................... F.............. 1984-09-02
    • Jeff Parke......................... D............. 1982-03-23
    • Eddie Pope........................ D............. 1973-12-24
    • Tim Regan....................... D-M........... 1981-06-27
    • Seth Stammler................... D............. 1981-09-29..........DEV
    • Fabian Taylor..................... F............. 1980-04-13.......... SI
    • Joselito Vaca..................... M............. 1982-08-12 .........TI
    • Jonny Walker.................... GK ............1974-09-13
    • Zach Wells....................... GK............. 1981-02-24
    • John Wolyniec.................... F............. 1977-01-24


    Ok good we are making progress.

    So 1st revision using the information provided by swedcrip34 we have the following:

    4 SI Slots filled- Guevara, Tayor, Bonseu, and SGR
    3 TI Slots filled- Vaca, Gilberto, and Glenn
    2 Dev players - Stammler and Arena
    1 P-40 player- Bradley

    Are TI's considered Senior roster slots or one of the 10 Devmelopment slots?
     
  7. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    TI's can be either. But they're almost always senior, because 1. MLS doesn't sign many foreigners to P-40 contracts, and 2. unless they went to college in the US (like Dorman), they're usually unwilling to sign developmental contracts. Flores, however, was developmental last year.
     
  8. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    Am I the only person who think these TI SI Dev classification serve no constructive purpose whatsoever and the only people who find delight in them are people who enjoy bookeeping?

    Why not just say "Here is your $1.7 million you are allowed 7 foreigners. Have at it."

    Thats far to simple I guess.
     
  9. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    my reply got posted out of order above. the others (Dorman, Stephenson, maybe Nunez) that were DEV/TI were all US college products until Kuffour came along. before 2004 I'm not sure if TI's were allowed to be DEV. Before now, posted rules said something like "primarily domestic" for DEV. They certainly are now, the new posted MLS rules makes it clear.
     
  10. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Ah, I answer a question, and Rommul shows up to criticize the entire system. That's not what this thread is about, dude, there's plenty of others where you can bitch about this shit.

    Sometimes I wonder if most of the reason that people complain about the classifications is that they simply aren't able to understand them.
     
  11. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks to those that helped with the roster status. MLSnet's list on the MetroStars page was really incomplete. This one here is by far the most acurate. The last post is perfect execpt Gilberto can count as a DEV and not count against our 18 man senior roster.
     
  12. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    Metrostars was the biggest challenge to figure out at the start of the season as they didn't announce the signing of Stammler, Wells, or Parke. Stammler was listed on the initial socceramerica roster, but noone was listed as DEV. I finally went with the guess that Nugent was "senior devleopmental" before retiring (again unannounced) and that Parke was senior roster all along (though preseason he was listed in one place as DEV).
     
  13. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    You may well be correct. On the other hand, people promulgating regulations similar to MLS's usually wind up being investigated by financial watchdogs! By the way, how do players without green cards even wind up in the USA? Tourist Visas?
     
  14. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    1. On my own teams forum until the mod say otherwise I can bitch about whatever I want wherever I want.

    2. You are a stats guy it is no surprise that you enjoy all this complexity. I am a footbaal guy I only enjoy seeing the best product on the field. I don't care for unecessary rules.
     
  15. Deuteriumoxide

    May 27, 2003
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    My guess for the league not allowing teams to fill their rosters however they like is that a team might just go out and use 80% of their cap space on seven foreign players and then then just fill out the roster with cheap american labor.


    It's kind of like reverse NAFTA. The TI and SI systems are in place mainly to protect the American player.

    that's my read on it anyways.

    edit:

    which reminds me... how are we looking as far as salary cap goes?
     
  16. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Rough estimate here since MLS is usually tight lipped about salary and contract specifics..

    Pope, Eddie...........$286,165 $350,331
    Guevara, Amado.....$225,000 $243,750
    Walker, Jonny........$100,000 $100,000
    Gaven, Eddie...........$55,000 $78,000
    Lisi, Mark................$59,692 $69,692
    Clark, Ricardo..........$42,000 $52,625
    Wolyniec, John........$30,000 $30,000
    Leitch, Chris...........$26,460 $26,460
    Magee, Mike...........$25,200 $26,450
    Regan, Tim.............$25,200 $25,200
    Vaca, Joselito.........$50,190 $50,190


    TOTAL............$874,717.......$1,002,518


    I can never rember if its the base salary or guarenteed salary that is used for cap computations.

    Stammler, Gilberto, and Arena are all dev salary of 850-1000 per month so we can add arounf $30,000 to the list.

    It is reported that SGR maxes the maximum what ever that is..$250,000-$350,000??

    That leaves:
    • Bonseu
    • Glenn
    • Taylor
    • Wells
    • Parke


    Exempt- Bradley (P-40)

    Wells and Parke can't make that much i would guess around $25,000-$30,000 each. That leaves around $600,000 -$400,000 avalible( depending on base vs. guarenteed calculation) for the 3 internationals (2 SI and 1 TI) and 7 development slots for next season. CAp is set at $1.7 million, right?


    QUESTIONS

    Is it base salary or guarenteed salary that counts toward the cap?
    How much does SGR really make?
    What is the salalry of Bonseu, Glenn and Taylor?

    If we can answer all those we can have a fairly acurate figure to work with.
     
  17. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    developmental salaries don't count against the cap

    SGR I'd guess counts the max 270

    cap charge is neither guaranteed or base. the socceramerica article listing these salaries has a disclaimer that neither are the cap amount. Based on assuming most teams are at the 1.7 cap, I'd guess the cap amount is slightly more than either number. It includes licensing fees and probably some bonus amounts. Someone did the calculation this preseason, but adding 10% or so to the total salary isn't unreasonable. Parke and Wells are likely what you guessed. Taylor bieng on loan may be more expensive this year. Bonseu is likely on his second contract, so a wild guess would be 50k. I'd put down similar numbers for Glen and Taylor though it'd be a guess.
     
  18. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    ditto. :)

    The two are not mutually exclusive.
     
  19. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    So none of the 10 dev slots this year need to be included in the cap only the 18 man roster?

    If so using the high number and adding 60K each for Bonseu, Glenn and Talyor then adding 25k each for Wells and Parke then adding 10% we get

    [$1,002,518 + $270,000 + ($60,000 x3) + ($25,000 x 2)] x 1.1 = $1,652,769


    Which is right near the cap. Does that look about right to you?
     
  20. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Correct.

    I doubt all of Pope's $350,000 salary is counted against the cap. While Donovan, etc. made well over the 270,000 (?) max, only the 270,000 part actually counted.

    I suspect that $180k may be underestimating the Bonseu/Glen/Taylor trio.
     
  21. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    That might be a good argument if the league wasn't already filled with cheap american labor. The american player doesn't need to be protected in a salary cap league. We should be concentrating on improving the american player not just trying to find more spots for whoever comes along. Quality not quantity.

    There is no excuse for giving the team less options than they have now. If a
    teams wants seven expensive foriegners let them. If they want seven Vaca types thats fine too but we shouldn't be limiting the options artificially there us simply no good reason for it. It is unecessary.
     
  22. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    No they are not.

    Look I prolly came off a little to strong in that post but I really don't care for the complexities this league seems to be in love with. We need to give teams as much ability to be creative as possible within the bounds of reason.
     
  23. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    Remember that those salaries were for 2004. All salaries will go up at least 5%. The higher salaries might go up 10%. And what I said before about these numbers being short of the actual cap charge. When these salaries came out, everyone was calculating their team payrolls and even for those teams known to be tight against the cap, the #'s often came out to 1.3-1.4 million, so the cap charge may be 10-20% higher than the listed salaries.

    No salary counts more than 270k against the cap.
     
  24. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well according to the NY times the agent for Fabian Taylor has stated that the MetroStars will not exercise the buy otion on his loan contract. This now leaves us with a senior international slot open.

    Our Roster now looks like this:


    CURRENT METROSTARS ROSTER

    • Kenny Arena..................... M............. 1981-02-06.......DEV
    • Tenywa Bonseu............... M-D........... 1976-10-28........... SI
    • Michael Bradley................. M............. 1987-07-31.......... P-40
    • Ricardo Clark.................... M............. 1983-02-10
    • Gilberto Flores.................. M............. 1983-07-05 ...........TI
    • Sergio Galvan Rey.............. F............. 1973-06-09............SI
    • Eddie Gaven..................... M............. 1986-10-25
    • Cornell Glen...................... F............. 1981-10-21 ...........TI
    • Amado Guevara................. M............ 1976-05-02 ............SI
    • Chris Leitch...................... D............. 1979-04-01
    • Mark Lisi.......................... M............. 1977-10-11
    • Mike Magee...................... F.............. 1984-09-02
    • Jeff Parke......................... D............. 1982-03-23
    • Eddie Pope........................ D............. 1973-12-24
    • Tim Regan....................... D-M........... 1981-06-27
    • Seth Stammler................... D............. 1981-09-29..........DEV
    • Joselito Vaca..................... M............. 1982-08-12 .........TI
    • Jonny Walker.................... GK ............1974-09-13
    • Zach Wells....................... GK............. 1981-02-24
    • John Wolyniec.................... F............. 1977-01-24


    17 of 18 senior roster spots filled
    3 of 10 Dev slots filled

    3 of 4 SI Slots filled- Guevara, Bonseu, and SGR
    3 TI Slots filled- Vaca, Gilberto and Glenn
    2 Dev players - Stammler and Arena, Gilberto(counts as a dev as well as a TI)
    1 P-40 player- Bradley
     
  25. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The trade for Agoos puts us back to 18 senior roster players. Agoos fills the void left by Taylor. Most likely Goose will make a bit more than Taylor did but not that much more since Goose isn't Max salary anymore. Interestingly with one extra SI slot open and 18 of 18 senoir players if we choose to fill that SI slot someone on the senior roster (not currently an SI) will have to go to make room. But who? My guess is Lisi.

    Our Roster now looks like this:


    CURRENT METROSTARS ROSTER

    • Kenny Arena.............D............ 1981-02-06.......DEV
    • Jeff Agoos.....................D.............1968-05-02
    • Tenywa Bonseu............ M-D........... 1976-10-28........ SI
    • Michael Bradley.............. M............. 1987-07-31...... P-40
    • Ricardo Clark................. M............. 1983-02-10
    • Gilberto Flores............... M............. 1983-07-05 .......TI
    • Sergio Galvan Rey........... F............. 1973-06-09........SI
    • Eddie Gaven.................. M............. 1986-10-25
    • Cornell Glen................... F............. 1981-10-21 ......TI
    • Amado Guevara.............. M............ 1976-05-02 .......SI
    • Chris Leitch.................... D............. 1979-04-01
    • Mark Lisi........................ M............. 1977-10-11
    • Mike Magee.................... F.............. 1984-09-02
    • Jeff Parke....................... D............. 1982-03-23
    • Eddie Pope...................... D............. 1973-12-24
    • Tim Regan..................... D-M........... 1981-06-27
    • Seth Stammler................. D............. 1981-09-29....DEV
    • Joselito Vaca................... M............. 1982-08-12 ....TI
    • Jonny Walker................... GK ............1974-09-13
    • Zach Wells..................... GK............. 1981-02-24
    • John Wolyniec................... F............. 1977-01-24


    18 of 18 senior roster spots filled
    3 of 10 Dev slots filled

    3 of 4 SI Slots filled- Guevara, Bonseu, and SGR
    3 TI Slots filled- Vaca, Gilberto and Glenn
    2 Dev players - Stammler and Arena, Gilberto(counts as a dev as well as a TI)
    1 P-40 player- Bradley
     

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