Methodology for Classifying World Class Players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Ariaga II, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Van Basten has basically two good seasons/years in this period so I agree he doesn't really qualify.

    He does have three of his better national team games in 1983 though. 'World Soccer' said very early (when he was still uncapped) that he can become the best footballer since Cruijff (as shown in the appropriate thread).

    I'm now halfway a book about the 1983-84 Feyenoord season. In this there are also some bits about the (too) laid back Gullit. Sadly, he fell out injured after 5 minutes in the Tottenham tie for the UEFA Cup.

    He made a strong impression as central defender against Belgium (1-1) at september 1983. The next match was against Ireland (with Brady but also some Liverpool, Tottenham and Man United players in the line-up) - with the Irish coach Eoin Hand saying he didn't understand the instability in selection by his opponent - and that became one of Gullit his marquee games I'd say. The book talks about him being lauded as "one of Europe's best sweepers" by the foreign press and in the digital archive I saw some more.

    "Ruud Gullit made a name for himself in Dublin on Wednesday evening. In the Irish and English press, he was portrayed yesterday as a world-class player and showered with honors. Irlsh Independent writes that "coach Eoin Hand In his nightmares will long be reminded of the tall, dark stranger. When Gullit rushed forward after the break, the Irish defense became as porous as a sponge. " The Dally Express calls Gullit the great inspiration for the Dutch resurrection and The Irish Press believes that in Europe there is currently 'no better' sweeper 'than devil hunter Ruud Gullit'. "Gullit played as last defender in name," said the Dublin newspaper, "but in reality he could be found everywhere in Dalymount Park." Also in the Irish edition of the Dally Mirror it is established that Gullit delivered a world-class performance."
    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010961537

    Personally I think he has a strong case for those early years, by my own criteria (influence, big game record, ability etc.).

    What I also don't understand is how Cruijff is not in (given the inclusion of the veteran versions of Pelé etcetera). When he returned to Ajax they turned around a five point deficit into a five point lead. The league was #2 or #3 in the coefficients at his return.

    Later on, at Feyenoord, the ranking of the league had bombed (but: around the turn of the decade the Italian league was also low) so I get that, but think he was still consistently good and productive against the strong teams. It was not the kindest era for veteran players though.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23ze7c
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x51yhu5
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x53d1xg
     
  2. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I don't see it, really. In the early 80s Cruyff had spells in the NASL and Segunda. At Ajax he was a sporadic starter. Would you include Beckenbauer for this era or Pele based on his NASL days?

    I agree Gullit might have a better case than some of the other players listed.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't think the comparison is entirely valid. Despite private problems and injuries he played 56% more games than Pelé (1975-1980) and 50% more games than Beckenbauer in those respective periods. There is a larger body of work and although Eredivisie wasn't the best, it wasn't a post-peak NASL either.

    In these games he had an upward influence on Ajax (with the league ranked top three back then) and later Feyenoord. He was twice player of the year in his league (1980 and 1984). Crucially, for me, he played well against the bigger teams at a quite consistent rate.

    Not to knock down Pelé but I don't think he had the same volume/proportion of good games against the strong teams (here a possible 'exception') or - despite his goals - a marked on-the-field impact on the Cosmos. Pelé was also player of the year over there slightly before the great influx of (ageing) superstars and fresh talent arrived (Souness, Hugo Sanchez, Beardsley, Francis, Grobbelaar, Romero etc.). Then after ~1981 the league quickly deflated.

    France Football
    Brian Glanville
    Kevin Keegan
    Glasgow Rangers


    Hmmm yes, in 1982-83 he only started 20 of the 34 league games because of injuries, and what he played wasn't at the level of 1981-82.

    I can see the idea he has only two-and-a-half really good seasons if you add it all up in this period.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Have you seen footage of Cruyff at Ajax/Feyenoord from the 80s mate?

    Maybe you prefer the accounts of journalists etc, but I think you would/should be impressed at how good a player he could still be. He was regarded as better than Gullit at Feyenoord I believe and the main inspiration as well as best player of the team, but certainly Gullit with his body of work (in multiple positions including sweeper) for that period overall seems a reasonable inclusion to me too.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #180 PuckVanHeel, Dec 23, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
    Yes I understand there are too few good seasons if you add it all up.

    Here a few pieces of that book I read (it is much better and more comprehensive than the impression those excerpts give but anyway):

    Show Spoiler
    Van Hanegem [assistant coach] reports to the club every morning, often in the company of Ruud Gullit. They ride together: a habit that emerged last year. Gullit was bought from Haarlem with money from an external financier and The Crooked took the great talent under his care. Ruud regularly visited Willem and his wife Truus on their farm in Leerbroek. With so much talent and that powerful body, Ruud had to be taught to be less phlegmatic and more of a winner. The Crooked also emphasized the importance of a good first touch and body shape.
    [...]
    The trainer addresses Ruud Gullit, the replacement of Jeliazkov as right sided forward, and tells what is expected. A little bit of defense. To move. Draw holes. If possible, co-defend. Make actions. Creating space for others. And do not forget where it can also be happy to defend. The players listen to the words of Libregts. The majority are in the seats behind Cruijff. Cruijff feels their looks. They know that he is not always charmed by Jeliazkov, that the Bulgarian does not co-defend. Yet it is the trainer's decision.
    The Crooked is also there and listens from the old couch behind the billiards. The tactical board can hardly be seen from that location, but Willem does not mind. He thinks football is fantastic, but too much tactical talk has not been spent on him. Cruijff nods. Gullit has to do what Jeliazkov leaves out. Ruud has to fill the position of right striker in a more roving way. Then space is created for Koko. The pattern on the right is obvious. With sufficient movement, he himself will make sure that the ball moves to the right place.
    [...]
    On Wednesday evening, yesterday, Gullit, Houtman and Wijnstekers played a 1-1 draw against the Belgian national team. Gullit played as last man a good game. Ben, also with the Dutch national team the captain, said afterwards to some journalists that this position at Feyenoord would also be something for Ruud.
    [...]
    Willem is still busy with Ruud: they often visit each other during training sessions. They then talk about tactics, how Gullit should keep his concentration during matches and how Ruud should dare to make an individual action.
    [...]
    On Wednesday evening they beat Ireland in Dublin after a 2-0 deficit at half-time with 3-2. Gullit scored two goals and played an unparalleled second half as adventurous last man. Dutch newspapers wrote about "The Dublin Miracle" and Ruud was suddenly incensed in the international press as "Europe's best sweeper".
    [...]
    Cruijff would like to see it differently. According to him, Ruud has too many useful qualities for the position of defender. But Cruijff conforms to the coach's line-up. With wise coaches he has never done anything else.
    [...]
    The trainer understands that. Although Libregts thinks that sometimes he asks too much from the selection. The role of Cruijff as a helper of other football players is well understood by the trainer. In a party game during training, he is often the free player, the player who always participates in the party in possession of the ball. That way he does not have to defend, the attacking team is always in the majority and he can correct and point during the game: ensuring that the players understand how to stand in certain positions. Such training sessions give him the opportunity to gauge all players: in both offensive and defensive terms. "They can all kick a football: they are pros. And running fast forward is also not difficult." But it's about the basics: knowing what you do and knowing when you do something. An extension of this, and certainly as important, is knowing when you as a player should not do something. It's all about task-conscious football: who does what and when and how you help your teammates by moving around. That is of course important: if his teammates walk sufficiently and well-timed, he will ensure that the ball ends up in the right room with the right person. To get that basic principle, moving without a ball, well cared for, he changed the playing of a rondo at one of the first training sessions. Just like Ajax, two years ago, they were used to standing in the corners. Four pylons that form a square, two players in the middle and four at the corners: this looks like a logical way to fiddle, but it is a wrong habit. By standing between the pylons you are more agile, easier to play and the distances between the players beat better. On the sides you stand better than in the corners, the ball goes around easier. Immediately after his explanation of the training a discussion had arisen. That was good and what he wanted. It's about thinking about football, talking about better solutions. And that not everyone understood why standing at a side worked better, of course, made sense. If they understood that, the team would have been better. Some still doubt. They are more impressed with how Cruijff says something and hardly listen to the content. Others are easier to convince.
    [...]
    Maybe it was because he is getting older, but he finds it increasingly difficult to tolerate incomprehension by fellow players. Fortunately, Gullit was in blood form in recent months. That guy is actually indispensable for this Feyenoord. The Dutch media have now also discovered Ruud. There were long interviews in the newspapers and there were several television appearances last week.
    [...]
    In the absence of the injured Vermeulen, Libregts re-positioned the left back as a forward. Unlike vvog, Brard played far less forwards, more controlling and he clearly had an eye for defensive tasks. With Vermeulen in the field, the loss of the ball meant that Cruijff himself had to cover the spaces on the left. That's why Cruijff walked so much before the winter break.
    [...]
    Afterwards, the media praised his game. Some journalists thought that he played so dominantly because he liked the holiday. Fortunately there were those who saw that Stanley Brard did a lot of defensive work for him as left winger. In the interviews afterwards he emphasized the role of Brard. "You play well by the grace of your teammates," he told journalists and then explained that Vermeulen's substitute always defended in crucial places in the event of a loss of the ball. "Thanks to Brard, I didn't have to go back that deep."
    [...]
    Since Stanley joined the Feyenoord line-up, Cruijff had to run less and plays better. He has more energy to coach his teammates and give passes: today he gave three assists and scored one goal himself. The biggest problem of journalists are their wrong assumptions. They think that a good team consists of the eleven best players.
    [...]
    They won 2-1 against Spain, with Houtman and again Gullit scoring and the Dutch national team suddenly had a serious chance to qualify among the last eight for next year's EC in France.
    [...]
    The next day, the Dutch national team in the Rotterdam Kuip wins its last qualification match of Malta, 5-0. Wijnstekers and Houtman both score a goal. Gullit plays a lesser game for the Netherlands for the first time in a long time.
    [...]
    Gullit had been booed by the Scottish fans for the entire match because of his skin color. As a provocation, Gullit immediately raised his hands when he returned to the stadium. The audience started shouting loudly, so Gullit laughed. During the run-up to his penalty, he briefly held the pass, sending the keeper to the wrong corner. Kneeling with his arms in the air, Gullit celebrated his personal victory.
    [...]
    The trainer analyzed the seasonal trend. In addition, Libregts commented on Gullit's breakthrough and the important role that Ruud played at Feyenoord. The coach praised his constant performance and hoped that Gullit would continue to do so for the rest of the season. "I hope his mentality remains good, the black people, you know," Ensink wrote from the mouth of Libregts. The media immediately surfaced. The Surinamese father of Gullit told Voetbal International to feel deeply insulted. He wondered if his son could continue to train under Libregts.
    [...]
    It seemed as if automatisms are emerging within the team: certainly on the right with Troost, Hoekstra and Gullit. That is precisely why he shouted, coached and scolded even more fanatically. He is not interested in the fact that some players continue to be disturbed by this.
    [...]
    For the first time this season, Cruijff also addressed Gullit directly in public. He pointed out to Ruud the responsibilities that go together with exceptional qualities. The better you get, the higher the expectations, the more the responsibility for team performance will be with you. In the future, Gullit had to take more control of others: position others in such a way that the entire team started to perform better. "If you are transferred to another club now, much more is expected of you than a homegrown player" said Cruijff. "You come in as someone, as a great footballer from whom personality is expected."
    [...]
    "It doesn't really matter if I play or not: this Ajax no longer wins from this Feyenoord. In a team it is like this: you cannot play with eleven opinions, or ten opinions. That is impossible. There must be a line. And that is normally one older person who therefore holds the lines that are plotted. And forces people to play in those lines."
    [...]
    Striking in the hours of interview with the players and staff of the Feyenoord of 1983/84 was how positive they spoke about Cruijff. Almost all interviewees told about how they once met him again, in a different environment, years after that season, and how jovially Cruijff then acted against them. That outside the field he was more emphatic than the usual footballer. Those pleasant later encounters often colored the memories of the season itself. A few people could still clearly remember the difficult times in the 1983/84 season, but many needed stories from fellow players, old newspapers, magazines or television images to refresh their memory. "I certainly do not dislike Cruijff," said Sjaak Troost on Wednesday 2 May 1984, the day of the cup final against Fortuna Sittard, against Rob Vente of the Haagsche Courant. "But that he only made Feyenoord champion is of course nonsense. He needs the others in the field as much as we need him."
    "Last year we played no less with Michel Valke in midfield than now with Johan Cruijff. Then we achieved 54 points over the entire season, now we are still playing two games at 53 points," said Ruud Gullit in nrc Handelsblad of 5 May 1984, the day before the champion match against Willem ii. "And don't forget: we played well without Johan. The away match against Groningen for example, which we only lost due to bad luck, and the encounter in De Kuip with Ajax. It is also written that Feyenoord collapses without Cruijff. I don't believe that. We did not fully adapt to him, at most for twenty or thirty percent. " "He was an important link in the team. But not indispensable, "captain Ben Wijnstekers said after the last competition match, at home against pec Zwolle, on 13 May 1984 in nrc Handelsblad. "I get more and more the idea that people think we can't play football without him. That is not true. A decent replacement must be found for Johan and that is sufficient. "

    These quotes often caused astonishment to those who made such a statement at the time. There are many reasons for this: for example, the increased appreciation for Cruijff, the process of mythologization, the principle of "about-the-dead-only-good-stuff", Feyenoord's drought period after 1984 or the wonderful effect of human memory. But it also has to do with that which took place during the 1983/84 season and which was characteristic of the footballer Cruijff: his far-reaching, sometimes almost peerless influence on a team.
    [...]
    Cruijff's view of the football game and his strong desire to convince teammates of that view made him, as it were, branched into a team. To perfect this branch, he coached and called himself an accident. Or, as Cruijff himself preferred to describe his screams: he helped his teammates. His persuasiveness was, partly due to his indestructible self-confidence, so great that on the field all players eventually moved in his rhythm. In the years following Cruyff's season at Feyenoord, it became increasingly clear that his swearing and coaching had indeed been just a way of helping. Many players experienced the scold during the season as criticism from a know-it-all and emphasized that not only Cruijff, but also the other players played an important role in winning the double. Only later did they realize that the organizational dictator Cruijff kept them sharp and helped them play better. Exactly as Ajax's players experienced in the 1973/74 season after Cruijff had left for Barcelona. And exactly as many Ajax players had experienced during the 1983/84 season. "It is a shame that he no longer plays here," Ajax player Jesper Olsen said in an interview with the football magazine Elf in November 1983. "Cruijff just belongs to Ajax. He is now playing at Feyenoord, but that is not the case, while we are still playing his game at Ajax.

    This crucial insight afterwards - you only really notice Cruijff's influence on a team when he is no longer there - colored the memories of many Feyenoord players in that particular season. Henk Duut, in the meantime a trainer for many years, told me in an interview that Cruijff had made him a better football player in that year. And strikingly enough, the lessons that he learned from Cruijff have now become through meandering, twists and turns a permanent part of almost all youth programs, nationally and internationally. "When passing a ball, always pass to the right leg, look for spaces, think ahead, look for the third man. We hardly did things like that in my time" said Brard. Then to tell the well-known anecdote about how all Feyenoorders in a rondo always stood in the corners of the square field near the pylons. And that Cruijff made it clear to them that you had to stand in the middle of the sides, making you more agile and more responsive. Cruijff gave the same insight to the players of Ajax's first team a few years earlier.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    On what is it based that Bum Kun Cha had his world class window in the 1970s rather than the 1980s?
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  8. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Ok.

    The FF article is interesting indeed because it sums-up well his career - apart from his Barça years wich are eluded here, since it concentrates on his return to The Netherlands, at Ajax then Feyenoord and most of all for it shows how he is building a new public image and how he is preparing at the same time his after-playing career : interest for the youngs + "no, I'm not after the money".

    Beating Ajax with Feyenoord was at the same time a personnal matter for sure, not only in terms of career but at quite like a "psychological level too" with his very peculiar (and complex, rich) caracter and personnal history too, well I suppose, never meet him or even less knew him.

    I guess that Hansen is a typo in this same article still (Jansen).

    It also shows what was the situation in the Eredivisie in terms of attendances too.

    The article also perhaps hints he was paid at Aztecs and at Dips in more advantageous conditions than he would have been at Cosmos (where there was other "star-players" too, at the same time, like Beckenbauer... and Pelé already before that).

    I think that his career as a veteran is the best compared to other greats, I agree with this. At the same time, I don't think that his Barça years were all that great when he was still in age to do great things. I mean on the pitch ofc... he was already interested in other things than "just" playing (and he must have been on and off the pitch boring to the others like when he left Ajax for the first time).
    In the Eredivisie he could find again and for a last time the pleasure to play, more than in the Primera Division and its banded pack of violent defenders plus way more passion and mediatic exposure internationally, at least in the newspapers.
    Of course, going back to Ajax then to the ennemy Feyenoord constituted some risky choices, but were well-calculated risks I think (winning the Eredivisie with one of these two teams had more chances of success than winning the Primera Division or the European Cup with Barça in the late 70's/ second half of, also Ajax had been spoiled of many young players when he wins the title with Feyenoord). And he is building there in his country the base for the following years of his career in the buisness (of football, and of other things I guess).
    Beating Ajax was also a maneer to say "so, who's the boss?", I imagine.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, the reference to the Feyenoord-Ajax game is notable and relevant for example too I think.

    Re: World Soccer, there is also this of course for 1982 - the readers poll where 3% select him as Player of the Year worldwide, and he makes the top 10:
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wsoc82.html

    I seem to think that we've seen the extended list somewhere for 1984 (where he was retired for half of it of course) and he is not far outside the top 10 too (maybe just ahead of Scifo IIRC)?

    I'd be somewhat surprised if there wasn't much in the way of glowing write-ups about his return to the Netherlands by the writers of World Soccer though I think.

    Going back to Robertson, I remember now Trevor Francis's OnetoEleven selection and the comment about being the best in Europe for a couple of years (John McGovern has also said similar for a 'few years' I think, but funnily Robertson himself left out both McGovern and Francis from his own chosen XI!):
    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/21901/9225331/trevors-one2eleven
     
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  10. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    You'll have to be clearer with your criticism. You don't think Kicker-ratings are trustworthy? You don't think Cha deserves to be in? Tacconi and Clemence yes or no?
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He was also in the top 10 for 1984 - for the 1983-84 club season that makes more sense than the calendar year though.

    http://soccernostalgia.blogspot.com/2013/11/magazine-awards-part-three.html?m=1

    The mentioned games in the Guardian article by Atkinson is this one and this one.
     
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  12. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I thought that not only Lerby but also Olsen was gone already but he was still there.
    There was "only" two departures : Lerby and Cruyff, Cruyff and Lerby. Lerby was 25 years old.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You are just integrally copying whatever kicker and the german usual suspects trot out. Simple as that.
     
  14. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Is there a specific reason I shouldn't copy kicker ratings? If there's a more reliable ranking system, say from the 80s, I'd love to hear about it.

    I don't follow any German usual suspects, sorry.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #190 carlito86, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Working under the assumption that ferenc puskas was a great I don't think Cruyffs post 30 year old career is comparable
    Not even remotely

    The greatest post 30 year old player is ferenc puskas
    After 30 years old he scored 7 freaking goals just in European cup finals!!!!!!

    For a comparison
    The greatest European 9 of this age zlatan ibrahimovic scored 7 Ko goals in 35+ European cup matches
    None in the Sf or final


    After 30 puskas Won 3× consecutive European cups, multiple league titles and finished runner up in the ballon dor (that he very arguably shouldve won)


    taken in complete isolation the career of puskas before he joined Madrid would make him a all time great
    And his career after 30 would also make him an all time great

    He is arguably only one of three players who built a legendary career in both halves of their career
    The other two are playing today

    I'd in fact argue that the longevity of puskas is more impressive than either one of Messi or Ronaldo
    Given the developments in sports science that he simply did not benefit from
    A 33 year old scoring a hat trick in a European cup final is unheard of and unprecedented in the history of this sport
     
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  16. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    One of the best then.
    I was probably only thinking about of other greats contemporary of Cruyff, whose the careers more or less overlap with his own career i.e Pelé & Maradona (Platini stopped at 31 years).
    None played at international level past their 30/31 anyway. Well Puskas did 4 times for Spain but unsuccessfully. Maradona : played in 1993-94 but we know how it ended.
    Unlike the two last mentioned, Cruyff was not overweight too (well, El Flaco) and that would count a lot for what would be my final appreciation. He smoked yes but he had still a nice alluring on the pitch and looked more like a sportsman anyway.
    Puskas did efforts to loose weight when coming back then it's true, in his own time. So did Maradona prior to the 1994 World Cup.
    Different eras etc.

    Cruijff, in his last season, was still graceful, still had this class of him, in his gestures and moves. That's where I join completely PDG1978's and PuckVanHeel's appreciations - as I was mainly in the continuing of this part of the discussion.
    Meanwhile, perhaps Puskas has been selected in the 1960-1965 era by AriagaII, I'm not sure, I must check it. It's very feasible indeed and it's very probable.
    Does it make him the one best "veteran player" amongst the "greatest players" then? Even if quite an "unique case", it's still difficult to compare across eras with also different competitions formats.

    He won "only" one EC (1960) since he did not play in the other two finals (1959 and 1966 even less). In '60, against Eintracht, he was 33. Then it's true that he's runner-up in '62 (Benfica, the hat-trick you talked about) and '64 (Inter). To reach those finals, Real mainly had to beat Juve ('62) and Milan ('64). In 1959/60 they beat Barça two times in the Semi-finals by 3-1 then in 1960/61 they've been taken by them in the first round (2-2, 1-2).
     
  17. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990:

    -It's taken me over a year of research, but finally my list has now been completed with the late 80s section!

    -Before we get into it, the usual recent revisions: Dario Pereyra and Stig Fredriksson have been added to the early 80s section.


    Goalkeepers

    Bats, Joel (France)
    Bell, Joseph-Antoine (Cameroon)
    Dasayev, Rinat (USSR)
    Higuita, Rene (Colombia)
    Muller, Rene (DDR)
    Nkono, Thomas (Cameroon)
    Pfaff, Jean-Marie (Belgium)
    Preud'homme, Michel (Belgium)
    Ravelli, Thomas (Sweden)
    Shilton, Peter (England)
    Southall, Neville (Wales)
    Stein, Uli (Germany)
    Van Breukelen, Hans (Netherlands)
    Zaki, Badou (Morocco)
    Zenga, Walter (Italy)
    Zubizarreta, Andoni (Spain)

    (Bonner, Illgner, Immel, Lung, Mihaylov)

    -By far the highest amount of competition for the goalie spot in any era, and the toughest choices I had to make. I feel like any one of the reserves would have made the list for early 80s. Bonner and Immel are particularly hard done by not making the final cut. Performance-wise Higuita maybe wouldn't deserve a spot, but he has that superstar quality that's difficult to ignore.
     
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  18. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990: Fullbacks

    Right:
    Amoros, Manuel (France)
    Battiston, Patrick (France)
    Bergomi, Giuseppe (Italy)
    Berthold, Thomas (Germany)
    Bessonov, Vladimir (USSR)
    Chendo (Spain)
    Ferrara, Ciro (Italy)
    Gerets, Eric (Belgium)
    Gough, Richard (Scotland)
    Grun, Georges (Belgium)
    Jorginho (Brazil)
    Josimar (Brazil)
    Pinto, Joao (Portugal)
    Reuter, Stefan (Germany)
    Stevens, Gary (England)
    Van Aerle, Berry (Netherlands)

    (Silooy, Sivebaek, Vujovic, Tomas Renones)


    Left:
    Branco (Brazil)
    Brehme, Andreas (Germany)
    Briegel, Hans-Peter (Germany)
    Cabrini, Antonio (Italy)
    Camacho, Jose Antonio (Spain)
    De Agostini, Luigi (Italy)
    Demyanenko, Anatoli (USSR)
    Francini, Giovanni (Italy)
    Gordillo, Rafael (Spain)
    Julio Alberto (Spain)
    Junior (Brazil)
    Maldini, Paolo (Italy)
    Pearce, Stuart (England)
    Rats, Vasili (USSR)
    Sansom, Kenny (England)
    Van Tiggelen, Adri (Netherlands)

    (Ayache, Malpas)


    -Once again, the problem position has some players who might have been just past it or still emerging, but all-around quality trumps the more modest performers.

    -Josimar seems like a one-tournament wonder, but he did have a very high reputation for a while.

    -Sivebaek has a high online reputation, but came off as pretty ordinary based on my reading. Malpas was highly rated, but only by the Scottish correspondent, it seemed like.
     
    Gregoriak and comme repped this.
  19. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990: Central Defenders

    Andrinua, Genar (Spain)
    Augenthaler, Klaus (Germany)
    Baresi, Franco (Italy)
    Belodedici, Miodrag (Romania)
    Bratseth, Rune (Norway)
    Buchwald, Guido (Germany)
    Butcher, Terry (England)
    De Leon, Hugo (Uruguay)
    Ferri, Riccardo (Italy)
    Förster, Karlheinz (Germany)
    Gomes, Ricardo (Brazil)
    Gutierrez, Nelson (Uruguay)
    Hadzibegic, Faruk (Yugoslavia)
    Hansen, Alan (Scotland)
    Herget, Matthias (Germany)
    Hysen, Glenn (Sweden)
    Julio Cesar (Brazil)
    Khidiatullin, Vagiz (USSR)
    Koeman, Ronald (Netherlands)
    Kohler, Jurgen (Germany)
    Kuznetsov, Oleg (USSR)
    Larsson, Peter (Sweden)
    McGrath, Paul (Ireland)
    Mozer, Carlos (Brazil)
    Nielsen, Ivan (Denmark)
    Olsen, Morten (Denmark)
    Passarella, Daniel (Argentina)
    Ratcliffe, Kevin (Wales)
    Ruggeri, Oscar (Argentina)
    Sanchis, Manuel (Spain)
    Vierchowod, Pietro (Italy)
    Wright, Mark (England)

    (Tony Adams, Keshi, O'Leary, McLeish, Miller, Des Walker)

    -De Leon seems a bit past it or playing at a lower level during this era. I might still replace him with Keshi if he seems like a worthy candidate.

    -The rest of the British-dominated substitutes list all come off as either past it or not yet ready for this era.
     
    Gregoriak and comme repped this.
  20. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990: Central Midfielders

    Aitken, Roy (Scotland)
    Aleiniov, Sergei (USSR)
    Alemao (Brazil)
    Ancelotti, Carlo (Italy)
    Batista, Sergio (Argentina)
    Bazdarevic, Mehmed (Yugoslavia)
    Berti, Nicola (Italy)
    De Napoli, Fernando (Italy)
    Dunga (Brazil)
    Fernandez, Luis (France)
    Gallego, Ricardo (Spain)
    Giannini, Giuseppe (Italy)
    Hermann, Heinz (Switzerland)
    Katanec, Srecko (Yugoslavia)
    Kubik, Lubos (Czechoslovakia)
    Lerby, Soren (Denmark)
    Litovchenko, Gennadiy (USSR)
    Matthaus, Lothar (Germany)
    McStay, Paul (Scotland)
    Mikhailichenko, Alexei (USSR)
    Prytz, Robert (Sweden)
    Rijkaard, Frank (Netherlands)
    Roberto Fernandez (Spain)
    Robson, Bryan (England)
    Schuster, Bernd (Germany)
    Strömberg, Glenn (Sweden)
    Thon, Olaf (Germany)
    Toninho Cerezo (Brazil)
    Valdo (Brazil)
    Victor Munoz (Spain)
    Whelan, Ronnie (Ireland)
    Wouters, Jan (Netherlands)

    (Bagni, Hasek, Senor, Tigana, Van Der Elst)

    -The weakest position in this era. I still have some doubts about the qualifications of the likes of Aitken, Kubik and Hermann.

    -I didn't read anything about Franky VDE from this era that made me feel he should be included. However, after going through some of the early 90s issues again, he seems like an omission for that era. So he's on the list now.
     
    Gregoriak and comme repped this.
  21. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990: Attacking Midfielders/Wingers

    Baggio, Roberto (Italy)
    Bakero, Jose Mari (Spain)
    Barnes, John (England)
    Barros, Rui (Portugal)
    Belanov, Igor (USSR)
    Boniek, Zbigniew (Poland)
    Burruchaga, Jorge (Argentina)
    Ceulemans, Jan (Belgium)
    Detari, Lajos (Hungary)
    Donadoni, Roberto (Italy)
    Francescoli, Enzo (Uruguay)
    Futre, Paolo (Portugal)
    Gullit, Ruud (Netherlands)
    Hagi, Gheorghe (Romania)
    Hassler, Thomas (Germany)
    Hoddle, Glenn (England)
    Houghton, Ray (Ireland)
    Laudrup, Michael (Denmark)
    Littbarski, Pierre (Germany)
    Mancini, Roberto (Italy)
    Maradona, Diego (Argentina)
    Martin Vazquez, Rafael (Spain)
    Michel (Spain)
    Moller, Andreas (Germany)
    Scifo, Enzo (Belgium)
    Steven, Trevor (England)
    Stojkovic, Dragan (Yugoslavia)
    Susic, Safet (Yugoslavia)
    Valderrama, Carlos (Colombia)
    Vanenburg, Gerald (Netherlands)
    Waddle, Chris (England)
    Zavarov, Alexander (USSR)

    (Bouderbala, Dziekanowski, Fofana, Sheedy, Strachan)

    -A big fight for the last spot, which went to Trevor Steven. LMK if you feel any of the reserves deserve a spot more.
     
    Gregoriak, comme and PDG1978 repped this.
  22. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1985-1990: Forwards

    Aldridge, John (Ireland)
    Allofs, Klaus (Germany)
    Altobelli, Alessandro (Italy)
    Beardsley, Peter (England)
    Bebeto (Brazil)
    Bosman, John (Netherlands)
    Butragueno, Emilio (Spain)
    Cantona, Eric (France)
    Careca (Brazil)
    Degryse, Marc (Belgium)
    Diaz, Ramon (Argentina)
    Elkjaer, Preben (Denmark)
    Hateley, Mark (England)
    Hughes, Mark (Wales)
    Johnston, Mo (Scotland)
    Klinsmann, Jurgen (Germany)
    Lineker, Gary (England)
    Madjer, Rabah (Algeria)
    McCoist, Ally (Scotland)
    Muller (Brazil)
    Papin, Jean-Pierre (France)
    Polster, Toni (Austria)
    Protasov, Oleg (USSR)
    Romario (Brazil)
    Rush, Ian (Wales)
    Sanchez, Hugo (Mexico)
    Sosa, Ruben (Uruguay)
    Thom, Andreas (DDR)
    Van Basten, Marco (Netherlands)
    Vialli, Gianluca (Italy)
    Vujovic, Zlatko (Yugoslavia)
    Völler, Rudi (Germany)

    (Kieft, Magnusson, Salinas)

    -The Liverpool players were some of the toughest to figure out, because the difference between their club and NT-performances. Aldridge makes it in, but the likes of Nicol and Gillespie didn't.

    -Madjer seems like one of those players whose star quality is defined by a single moment. He wasn't a big success in the bigger leagues, but who am I to question it?

    -There was a big Benelux battle for the final spots, with Degryse and Bosman beating Kieft. Right or wrong?
     
    Gregoriak, comme and PDG1978 repped this.
  23. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    So there we have it, my tour de force is finished at last... for now.

    So, what next? Ideally, I'd love to make a similar list for every era as far back as the early 30s, probably early 20s. That seems like a pretty tall order, though, with the limited material I have available. The late 50s would be doable, but something like the WWII era seems beyond me. Would love to hear if there is interest in doing something like this as a group effort.

    Besides that, I'll probably be doing some revisions on the later ESM-based lists. If they end up looking a lot different, I might post them here. At the very least I'll return to this project in the summer with the 2015-2020 era.
     
    Gregoriak, comme, Titanlux and 1 other person repped this.
  24. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Finally!
    One or two things. Rapidly.
    And no Campos to be seen anywhere?

    Battiston CB (libero).
    Zo. Vujovic CB (stopper).

    Not disappointed with the Am's section.
     
  25. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    You must be trolling with Briegel.
     

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