Methodology for Classifying World Class Players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Ariaga II, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    You mean that Szövkap guy? I think he was being obsessively hipsterish/contrarian. No way was the 38 side better than the 54 side. I agree to a degree with the 54 side being inflated, though, and I'd say that extends to most ATG sides (Brazil 58 and 70 come to mind), where there's a tendency for some people to elevate the entire first 11 (and more!) to god tier level. In modern times Hungary 54 gets credit for basically inventing everything in football, when I'd argue the level of innovation was closer to nothing than everything.

    In terms of the players, Kocsis, Puskas and Bozsik are pretty clearly the big three in the reports. The likes of Czibor and Hidegkuti didn't come off as any higher than the "average" Hungarian star, if that makes sense. If we take away Hidegkuti's IMO undeserved innovator status, what are we left with? A squad player who had a pretty short world class peak for a couple of seasons at age 30+. A sort of 50s Giresse.

    The ATG generations also generally receive a hugely inflated depth bonus, when in truth the quality sank immediately if a Puskas and Kocsis (or Pele and Garrincha) were missing. Contemporary wisdom will say the Aranycsapat lost out on another WC because the 56 revolution broke up the team. But really they only lost three players, one of whom (Czibor) seemed to be already on the way to losing his spot. That said, the late-50s generation does have a number of top players, so clearly there's depth there. If we include all the exports (Nyers, Kubala, Ujlaki), I'd say the 50s Hungarian talent pool can stand up to any in history.

    BTW, a great way to research squad depth in this era would be to look at the results of B internationals. I hadn't even realized how important they were pre-60s. It was pretty common to play a B international at the same as an A-international. I didn't look at them closely this time, but there's certainly a goldmine of information available for a devoted researcher. I've never even seen these collected online.

    Mate, you're trying to take away all my FBs. :D I have to leave someone in there. How can Pini and Zuluaga (or Gonzalez and Martinez) both be the CB if the teams are using a back three?

    Bocquet was a defensive all-arounder. He generally played (on paper) WH but also FB, with "Mario" Eggimann as the CH (I'm surprised that kind of snafu hasn't happened more often. I've made several last moment saves :D). If we assume Switzerland played bolt throughout their careers, I guess that would make Eggimann a DM and Bocquet a FB earlier and CB later. That's a big assumption, though. Like you said, things are particularly confusing in this era, when even the reports can't agree what system certain teams are playing in. It's much easier to go with what's on the team sheets.

    It's the same with CFs. I have 16 spots for them, so I prefer to leave them for tank-types/primary goalscorers.

    BTW, the reports I read thought very highly of the Uruguayan wingers Abbadie and Borges, so they might be worth a higher spot on your rankings. See here, for example. As a bonus, there's also an interesting tactical note and a Swiss team sheet.
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  2. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #302 msioux75, Nov 22, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
    I tend to agree that being part of a winner team, seems to inflate some regular / "just good" players.

    I've been curious about more hungarian footballers playing in La Liga and Serie-A in the late-50s, also, some good ones at Ligue-1. That intrigues me about Hungary's depth in these years in addition of the well know 13/14 regular "Magical Magyars", apart from the exclusions (playing abroad or ending his international career at the beggining of this era)

    btw, I guess most of those B-internationals should have the same level to those players who rarely makes it the A-team (5-caps level, to give a number)

    A first step of the B-internationals
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:European_national_B_association_football_teams
    http://rsssf.com/tablesl/landen-intres.html#euro

    I don't know about Bocquet being FB first and then CB. He could be rated same way as C.Maldini/Picchi? (mediocre FB but very good CB in his late years)

    About SA defenders. It's well know, Uruguay was one of the last countries using Pyramid formation, so, the Gonzalez-Martínez combo, were in fact a back-2 with the Wing Halves playing in a cautious approach. Resuming, a back-2 at defense that looked sometimes as a back-4.

    Millonarios defense also used a back-2, in a Pyramid formation (1949-53).

    btw, my rankings needs update since 4 years ago :(:cautious:
     
  3. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #303 msioux75, Nov 22, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
    If we think, Rioplatenses teams used to play his Pyramid FBs in the way McCraken's ManUtd play, this is, RFB covering the area and LFB a bit upfront (also Italian Mettodo's FBs play like that) and Wing Halves playing defensive-minded, could be looked similar defensively to Swiss Bolt (team below)
    [​IMG]
    I think some european journos attending to WC 1950, thought Uruguay used a Swiss Bolt tactic in the Maracanazo game. But in fact, Uruguay used to play like that, but in that game, a bit more defensive approach was used.

    Playing the RFB, Matias Gonzalez (known as Maracana's lion), "the verrouer role" that match. And Tejera playing as stopper.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Bocquet played in the LH spot until around 1950, then switched over to LB. I didn't detect any particular improvement after that, but truthfully the entire Swiss team came off as quite mediocre. There was one interesting anecdote, though. Bocquet was the worst player on the pitch in the famous 1954 QF against Austria, resulting in his team letting in 7 goals. This was because he had been suffering from a brain tumor for a while. Apparently playing in the scorching heat wasn't doing his condition any favors (he later had a successful operation).

    Pyramid-FBs I count as FBs (they have first claim to the term, after all). I don't think the role of the pyramid and WM FB is that different, really (there's a lot more variation in some other positions). Anyway, the important thing is to include everyone, even if it's not in their primary position.

    That's the problem with rankings. They're always in need of an update. :D I realized Ferenc Szojka actually peaked in this era, so I'll probably move him to first tier and throw Bocquet to FB.
     
  5. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I think the term FullBack have been lost its original meaning through years and the evolution of the role since a quasi-stopper as McCracken or a proto-sweeper as Nasazzi until nowadays D.Alves or Alba, with a defensive minded D.Santos in the middle.

    I mean, modern FBs are not "full time at the back" anymore.
     
  6. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Thus, in between those long times ago and today/ the 21st century, we said "wing-backs" without necessarily playing with 3 CB's, just to mark the fact there was an evolution. Wing-backs of the back-4's. That said, in French at least, we already said "wing-backs" ("arrières d'ailes") in the 5-5 formation times. It did not even mean that the said wing-back was necessarilly attacking much (although there was already an evolution, globally), just that there was a CH/ CB in between them - so they became the wing-backs, while the wing-halves became just halves ("demis", no word in French for half-back, it's just half... no equivalent for full-back too, it was just right or left back, wich still can be used of course most of all without this idea of necessarily being always fully at the back (although "full-back" just means that it's the players who are more at the back compared to the other outfield players I guess, geographically so to speak, independently of them being attacking much or not attacking at all, or in-between). So the evolution in English, maybe, was to talk about some "attacking full-backs" at one point to effectively mark a difference.

    In the thread of Titanlux, I saw that there's a difference between extremos and arietas in attack as soon as in the 50's but in English, I guess that "forward" and "striker" were just synonymous before the playstation.

    The Brazilians, Italians... every country have their own vocabulary that it should be very interesting to compare. Through times, again. Knowing that it's not always constant during a specific period of time too, as the different authors can have their own vocabulary for the same thing, depending on what generation they belong to, also. The physionomy of a game, how the players acted, dpending on the adversary also, can make we choose one word more than the other ofc,for the sake of precision, in any era.

    The old terms seems to have survived better in Italy, for example. In Brazil too, it seems.
     
    msioux75 and PDG1978 repped this.
  7. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Yeah,
    In Italy they called them Terzinos, since Pyramid FBs were the "third line", being FWs 1st line.

    Those times, FWs faced opposing teams, whom placed his defensive line made up of two lines (halfbacks line at first and then, the fullbacks line)
     
    wm442433 and PDG1978 repped this.
  8. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    #308 Ariaga II, Dec 19, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
    1955-1960:

    After two years (almost to the day) of research, my project is finally completed with the last remaining era. It was funny skimming some of the early World Soccer issues again and seeing what they were talking about, now with much greater experience on what had been going on before.

    Early signs indicated this era counted among the more crowded ones, so were expectations fulfilled? Somewhat. Some positions were as crowded as they've ever been, but it wasn't the ones I expected. The most troublesome were the goalkeepers, probably even more stacked than they were in the late 80s. I was once again forced to drop Carbajal for being pretty exiled in his own continent, but luckily he's included in the 60s already. Surprisingly, the halfbacks were another problem area. The attacking spots weren't as bad as expected, though, so in a rarity I was more likely to move a player up the formation than down, as is usually the case. Of the attacking spots, the wingers had strong representation, so I ended up moving a lot of players that traditionally would have gone there back to the middle (often were they actually belong). Especially in the second tier wingers were overrepresented. The second tier in general is almost completely filled now, as it will in later eras. I had to omit some fairly deserving goalies from even the second tier, which is quite rare.

    Now, onto the last batch of report cards.


    Britain

    England are going through their most challenging period so far, ending the decade with probably their worst results yet. With the Munich victims included, they do have enough top tier talent to make an 11, though. The goalkeepers are a bit tricky. They come off pretty well in BdO votes, but not really in the reports. With the goalies section being as crowded as it is, there's just no room for them.

    In terms of top tier talent, Scotland is now lagging behind even Wales or Northern Ireland, though they have greater depth, of course. Evans is the one obvious choice, with Caldow, Parker and Hewie other defenders who made it in. Younger was a surprise inclusion, being described as the best in Britain before Gregg and Kelsey surpassed him.

    Wales have their best international run in this period, though that's largely thanks to luck more than anything. In terms of individuals they are down from the last era. Kelsey, Charles, Allchurch and Cliff Jones made the cut. Northern Ireland has more candidates, about half of the team. The Republic is down to zero this time. Cantwell and Hurley were the closest to making it in, but they'll have to wait for the early 60s.

    Latin Europe

    Spain were one of the high profile teams of this era, but the greatness they had was very much dependent on foreigners. Of the locals, Ramallets, Segarra, Garay, Suarez and Gento are the clear picks. Miguel was very impressive early on, but dipped and trailed off later, so he's not an obvious choice.

    Portugal were threatening to put together a good generation for a while, but it didn't quite manifest yet. Coluna, for example, impressed early on, then disappeared for his military service, and wasn't really that noticeable afterwards, so I ended up dropping him. The greatness of Aguas is pretty much based on the early 60s Benfica achievements, but his career fits better in this time frame. Matateu comes off as pretty inconsistent, slipping between great and anonymous in typical Portuguese fashion. That leaves Hernani as the top attacker. In defense Angelo is now the leading player, though a relative lack of right-back options allowed Virgilio to retain a spot, too.

    If Spain can feel their lack of WC success could be attributed to bad luck, Italy's elimination came off as a logical conclusion for a team that's in the doldrums. While the early 50s generation seemed to have depth, if not top quality talent, this one doesn't really seem to have either. The inconsistent Boniperti is the one real homegrown star, and came off better than he did in the last era. Cervato, Segarra and Chiappella are the others who made the cut. Buffon is a funny case. He was part of a continental selection in the mid-50s, but doesn't cement a place in the NT until the end of the decade. This appears to be the best era for him, though.

    While Italy's talent pool came off as a disappointment, France's was a positive surprise. I came in expecting the 58-success to be something of a one-off, but the team does come off as legitimate world-beaters when all players are available. The most-used 11 is included. The North African exiles Zitouni and Mekhloufi remain somewhat mysterious, but the relative lack of appearances at international level made me exclude them. Akesbi was included in the early 60s.

    Northern Europe

    Germany use this era to recover from their post-WC lull, but by the end of the decade come off pretty strong. They don't have the depth they will in later eras, though. Austria experience a steep decline, and are now with Switzerland at the bottom of the barrel. Both will spend the next decades gathering their stuff off the floor, and will pretty much never reach their former heights (such as it was in Switzerland's case) again.

    Austria have a top class half-line in Koller and Hanappi (who I had to throw with the fullbacks to make up the numbers), and an excellent Stotz in CB (ditto). Schmied is an impressive goalie, but Buzek is the only forward who manages to sneak in. Ocwirk is still there based on an excellent Serie A record, but Happel I was not so sure about, so he's cut. Swiss choices are limited to Ballaman, who peaked in the mid-50s, but is included here due to space considerations. Others like Hugi and Antenen impressed at times early on, but seem to dip off pretty quickly, so the previous era seems better for them. The Swiss really come off as a mediocre lot already.

    The Netherlands are improving from their disastrous early 50s, thanks to the introduction of professionalism that allows them to retain and bring back their top stars. Most of the big names from the last few eras are still there and impressing at times, but are reaching their late-30s. Since they don't appear that regularly, it was easy to drop the likes of Wilkes, Lenstra and Rijvers. Moulijn appears, but doesn't really start to impress until around 59. De Munck and Van Der Hart didn't stand out as much as I expected them to, but are included. Could be they peaked during the time they were playing abroad. Wiersma and Klaassens complete their selection.

    Belgium, meanwhile, are heading to the back of the line, with some weak performances and a distinct lack of top talent. Jurion is their big star, but quite inconsistent early on. He reaches a new level when he's moved to the half-line around 59, so it's a bit debatable if he qualifies for this era.

    In Scandinavia, Sweden are the only team to really talk about. They had a decent side even without the pros, including a "best defence in Europe", and the exiles gives them pretty good representation. Norway is limited to Svenssen in defence. Denmark have reached their lowest depths, though some decent players will emerge in the 1960 Olympics.

    Eastern Europe

    The story in Eastern Europe seems to be one of decline and rebuilding. The USSR regress from what appeared like the best and most impressive side on the continent to being unspectacular if also effective. Still good enough to have the starting 11 included.

    The same goes for Yugoslavia and Hungary, both dipping from their early 50s peak, but still having enough players to put a team together of top tier talent, though Hungary is struggling for forwards thanks to the exile of the biggest stars. I hadn't quite realized how long the lull was between Hungary's golden generation and their 60s upstart generation. Kocsis and Czibor deserve special mention. They still enjoyed a top tier reputation at Barca, but the lack of matches disqualifies them from inclusion.

    One team on the mend is Czechoslovakia, though it doesn't seem like they've quite reached the heights they will in the early 60s. Top tier cases are limited to the three most obvious cases, Novak, Masopust and Pluskal.

    Bulgaria I've already touched on in detail. The names of Rakarov, Manolov, Bozhkov, Diev, Kolev and Panayotov don't mean much to modern fans, but in the 50s it looked very different.

    One team heading in the same direction of being a team with good individuals but bad results is Poland. That's only in the 60s, though. For now their only representative is goalie Szymkowiak. Romania or East Germany don't seem to have anything going for them.

    South America

    Brazil of course are heading into their golden generation, though judging their depth based on NT match reports alone is pretty tricky. Their early 60s success (or lack of it) with their tinkering would indicate the depth wasn't quite as deep as the fanboys would like to believe. As it is, I mostly included players who were part of the WC-success.

    Argentina, I'd say, actually edge out over Brazil in terms of attacking depth, with probably one of the deepest talent pools in history. Unfortunately for them, their NT never benefited from it. Goalkeeper section has two of their ATGs, too, but the defense is more difficult to gauge. Their WC-performances would indicate that particular well was empty, but I included the most capped players, anyway.

    Uruguay are in the doldrums, failing to even qualify for the WC. Their only players are the last survivors of the 54-side, Martinez, Borges and Ambrois, the last two of whom fit more in this window. Schiaffino, Santamaria and Villaverde are making waves in Europe. Villaverde is another Barca player with some appearance issues, but his reputation in World Soccer was pretty high, and this is the best era for him. Thoughts, @Titanlux? Borges came off very well around 54, but now I read in World Soccer he never reached those heights again, so maybe a one-tournament wonder who doesn't necessarily need to be in. He's in for now, but might end up getting the drop.

    Outside the big three, the cupboard is pretty empty in SA. Paraguay get to strut their stuff in Europe, but hardly impress. Their key players are good enough to make decent journeymen careers in Europe, which I'd say is an accurate picture of their playing level. Chile have a pretty catastrophic European tour, where even the 62 WC stars don't particularly stand out.

    Peru is the one exception, putting together a solid side that gets snatched by foreign clubs. The only question is how many of them had enough top seasons to be included for this era. Seminario as the major star made the cut. Terry, too, though I'm wondering why he was never scooped up by foreign clubs.The others have to wait for the 60s.
     
    Gregoriak and EnnatzIsTheMan repped this.
  9. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Goalkeepers

    Beara, Vladimir (Yugoslavia)
    Buffon, Lorenzo (Italy)
    Carrizo, Amadeo (Argentina)
    De Munck, Frans (Netherlands)
    Dominguez, Rogelio (Argentina)
    Gilmar (Brazil)
    Grosics, Gyula (Hungary)
    Gregg, Harry (Northern Ireland)
    Herkenrath, Fritz (Germany)
    Kelsey, Jack (Wales)
    Ramallets, Antonio (Spain)
    Schmied, Kurt (Austria)
    Szymkowiak, Edward (Poland)
    Trautmann, Bert (Germany)
    Yashin, Lev (Russia)
    Younger, Tommy (Scotland)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  10. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Defenders

    Right-Backs:
    Belin, Bruno (Yugoslavia)
    Bergmark, Orvar (Sweden)
    Caldow, Eric (Scotland)
    De Sordi, Newton (Brazil)
    Hanappi, Gerhard (Austria)
    Howe, Don (England)
    Kaelbel, Raymond (France)
    Lombardo, Francisco (Argentina)
    Matrai, Sandor (Hungary)
    Mendes, Virgilio (Portugal)
    Parker, Alex (Scotland)
    Rakarov, Kiril (Bulgaria)
    Santos, Djalma (Brazil)
    Stollenwerk, Georg (Germany)
    Stotz, Karl (Austria)
    Wiersma, Roel (Netherlands)

    Left-Backs:
    Angelo Martins (Portugal)
    Axbom, Sven (Sweden)
    Byrne, Roger (England)
    Cervato, Sergio (Italy)
    Crnkovic, Tomislav (Yugoslavia)
    Hewie, John (South Africa/Scotland)
    Juskowiak, Erich (Germany)
    Kuznetsov, Boris (USSR)
    Marche, Roger (France)
    Martinez, William (Uruguay)
    Novak, Ladislav (Czechoslovakia)
    Ogonkov, Mikhail (USSR)
    Santos, Nilton (Brazil)
    Sarosi, Laszlo (Hungary)
    Segarra, Joan (Spain)
    Vairo, Federico (Argentina)

    Centre-Backs:
    Bellini, Hilderaldo (Brazil)
    Dellacha, Pedro (Argentina)
    Erhardt, Herbert (Germany)
    Evans, Bobby (Scotland)
    Garay, Jesus (Spain)
    Gustavsson, Bengt (Sweden)
    Johansson, Åke (Sweden)
    Jonquet, Robert (France)
    Manolov, Manol (Bulgaria)
    Maslyonkin, Anatoli (USSR)
    Santamaria, Jose (Uruguay/Spain)
    Sipos, Ferenc (Hungary)
    Svenssen, Torbjorn (Norway)
    Van Der Hart, Cor (Netherlands)
    Wright, Billy (England)
    Zebec, Branko (Yugoslavia)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  11. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Halfbacks

    Belangero, Roberto (Brazil)
    Blanchflower, Danny (Northern Ireland)
    Boskov, Vujadin (Yugoslavia)
    Bozhkov, Stefan (Bulgaria)
    Bozsik, Jozsef (Hungary)
    Chiappella, Giuseppe (Italy)
    Clayton, Ronnie (England)
    Guidi, Hector (Argentina)
    Eckel, Horst (Germany)
    Edwards, Duncan (England)
    Klaassens, Jan (Netherlands)
    Koller, Karl (Austria)
    Kotasz, Antal (Hungary)
    Krstic, Dobrosav (Yugoslavia)
    Liedholm, Nils (Sweden)
    Marcel, Jean-Jacques (France)
    Masopust, Josef (Czechoslovakia)
    Mourino, Eliseo (Argentina)
    Netto, Igor (USSR)
    Ocwirk, Ernst (Austria)
    Orlando Pecanha (Brazil)
    Parling, Sigge (Sweden)
    Peacock, Bertie (Northern Ireland)
    Penverne, Armand (France)
    Pluskal, Svatopluk (Czechoslovakia)
    Rossi, Nestor (Argentina)
    Sani, Dino (Brazil)
    Segato, Armando (Italy)
    Szymaniak, Horst (Germany)
    Varacka, Jose (Argentina)
    Voinov, Yuri (USSR)
    Zito (Brazil)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  12. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Wingers

    Right-Wingers:
    Ballaman, Robert (Switzerland)
    Bingham, Billy (Northern Ireland)
    Corbatta, Oreste Omar (Argentina)
    Diev, Todor (Bulgaria)
    Douglas, Bryan (England)
    Finney, Tom (England)
    Garrincha (Brazil)
    Hamrin, Kurt (Sweden)
    Hernani (Portugal)
    Julinho (Brazil)
    Jurion, Jef (Belgium)
    Kopa, Raymond (France)
    Miguel Gonzalez (Spain)
    Rahn, Helmut (Germany)
    Sandor, Karoly (Hungary)
    Wisniewski, Maryan (France)

    Left-Wingers:
    Borges. Carlos (Uruguay)
    Canhoteiro (Brazil)
    Fenyvesi, Mate (Hungary)
    Gento, Francisco (Spain)
    Ilyin, Anatoli (USSR)
    Jones, Cliff (Wales)
    Kolev, Ivan (Bulgaria)
    McParland, Peter (Northern Ireland)
    Pepe (Brazil)
    Schäfer, Hans (Germany)
    Selmosson, Arne (Sweden)
    Seminario, Juan (Peru)
    Skoglund, Lennart (Sweden)
    Villaverde, Ramon (Uruguay)
    Vincent, Jean (France)
    Zagallo, Mario (Brazil)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  13. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Forwards

    Inside-Forwards:
    Allchurch, Ivor (Wales)
    Altafini, Jose (Brazil)
    Ambrois, Javier (Uruguay)
    Boniperti, Giampiero (Italy)
    Bundzsak, Dezso (Hungary)
    Charlton, Bobby (England)
    Collins, Bobby (Scotland)
    Didi (Brazil)
    Evaristo (Brazil)
    Gren, Gunnar (Sweden)
    Grillo, Ernesto (Argentina)
    Haynes, Johnny (England)
    Ivanov, Valentin (USSR)
    Kostic, Bora (Yugoslavia)
    Kubala, Laszlo (Hungary/Spain)
    Maschio, Humberto (Argentina)
    McIlroy, Jimmy (Northern Ireland)
    Milutinovic, Milos (Yugoslavia)
    Montuori, Miguel (Argentina/Italy)
    Panayotov, Panayot (Bulgaria)
    Pele (Brazil)
    Piantoni, Roger (France)
    Puskas, Ferenc (Hungary)
    Rial, Hector (Argentina/Spain)
    Sanfilippo, Jose (Argentina)
    Schiaffino, Juan (Uruguay)
    Schmidt, Alfred (Germany)
    Sekularac, Dragoslav (Yugoslavia)
    Sivori, Omar (Argentina)
    Suarez, Luis (Spain)
    Terry, Alberto (Peru)
    Walter, Fritz (Germany)

    Centre-Forwards:
    Aguas, Jose (Portugal)
    Angelillo, Antonio (Argentina)
    Buzek, Hans (Austria)
    Charles, John (Wales)
    Di Stefano, Alfredo (Argentina)
    Fontaine, Just (France)
    Martinez, Eulogio (Paraguay/Spain)
    Matateu, Lucas (Mozambique/Portugal)
    Seeler, Uwe (Germany)
    Simonsson, Agne (Sweden)
    Simonyan, Nikita (USSR)
    Streltsov, Eduard (USSR)
    Taylor, Tommy (England)
    Tichy, Lajos (Hungary)
    Vava (Brazil)
    Veselinovic, Todor (Yugoslavia)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  14. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    1955-1960: Second Tier

    Goalkeepers:
    Asca, Rafael (Peru)
    Bugatti, Ottavio (Italy)
    Carbajal, Antonio (Mexico)
    Castilho, Carlos (Brazil)
    Carmelo Cedrun (Spain)
    Dolejsi, Bretislav (Czechoslovakia)
    Hansen, Asbjorn (Norway)
    Hopkinson, Eddie (England)
    Matthews, Reg (England)
    McDonald, Colin (England)
    Sawitzki, Gunter (Germany)
    Seren, Turgay (Turkey)
    Stacho, Imrich (Czechoslovakia)
    Svensson, Kalle (Sweden)
    Tilkowski, Hans (Germany)
    Vidinic, Blagoje (Yugoslavia)

    Right-Backs:
    Armfield, Jimmy (England)
    Corradi, Giuseppe (Italy)
    Dirickx, Henri (Belgium)
    Fontana, Alfio (Italy)
    Hall, Jeff (England)
    Halla, Paul (Austria)
    Kernen, Willy (Switzerland)
    Kesarev, Vladimir (USSR)
    Magnini, Ardico (Italy)
    Marquitos (Spain)
    Paulinho (Brazil)
    Quincoces, Juan Carlos (Spain)
    Schmidt, Karl (Germany)
    Spajic, Ljubisa (Yugoslavia)

    Left-Backs:
    Banks, Tommy (England)
    Barschandt, Leopold (Austria)
    Cantwell, Noel (Ireland)
    Dalnoki, Jeno (Hungary)
    Gracia, Sigfrid (Spain)
    Happel, Ernst (Austria)
    Kuijs, Kees (Netherlands)
    Langley, Jimmy (England)
    Lerond, Andre (France)
    McMichael, Alf (Northern Ireland)
    Mesias, Juan Carlos (Uruguay)
    Olivella, Ferran (Spain)
    Oreco (Brazil)
    Shaw, Graham (England)
    Swoboda, Franz (Austria)

    Centre-Backs:
    Arcanjo, Miguel (Portugal)
    Bernasconi, Gaudenzio (Italy)
    Blanchflower, Jackie (Northern Ireland)
    Charles, Mel (Wales)
    Fernandez, Jose (Peru)
    Gensana, Enric (Spain)
    Hledik, Jiri (Czechoslovakia)
    Horvat, Ivica (Yugoslavia)
    Karpati, Bela (Hungary)
    Korynt, Roman (Poland)
    Krizhevski, Konstantin (USSR)
    Orzan, Alberto (Italy)
    Popluhar, Jan (Czechoslovakia)
    Sijakovic, Vasilije (Yugoslavia)
    Wewers, Heinz (Germany)
    Zitouni, Mustapha (Algeria/France)

    Halfbacks:
    Achucarro, Ignacio (Paraguay)
    Benitez, Victor (Peru)
    Benthaus, Helmut (Germany)
    Berendy, Pal (Hungary)
    Bergamaschi, Mario (Italy)
    Bubernik, Titus (Czechoslovakia)
    Clamp, Eddie (England)
    Cush, Wilbur (Northern Ireland)
    Docherty, Tommy (Scotland)
    Ferrier, Rene (France)
    Flowers, Ron (England)
    Formiga (Brazil)
    Goncalves, Nestor (Uruguay)
    Jonsson, Torbjörn (Sweden)
    Kovachev, Nikola (Bulgaria)
    Lippens, Martin (Belgium)
    Mackay, Dave (Scotland)
    Maguregui, Jose Maria (Spain)
    Mai, Karl (Germany)
    Mauri (Spain)
    McColl, Ian (Scotland)
    Mees, Vic (Belgium)
    Miramontes, Luis (Spain)
    Pilmark, Axel (Denmark)
    Santisteban, Juan (Spain)
    Slater, Bill (England)
    Tasic, Lazar (Yugoslavia)
    Tsarev, Viktor (USSR)
    Verges, Marti (Spain)
    Zanetic, Ante (Yugoslavia)
    Zarraga, Jose Maria (Spain)
    Zozimo (Brazil)

    Right-Wingers:
    Berndtsson, Bengt (Sweden)
    Brabrook, Peter (England)
    Budai, Laszlo (Hungary)
    Ghiggia, Alcides (Uruguay)
    Gomez Sanchez, Oscar (Peru)
    Grillet, Pierre (France)
    Joel (Brazil)
    Klodt, Berni (Germany)
    Leggat, Graham (Scotland)
    Medwin, Terry (Wales)
    Metreveli, Slava (USSR)
    Pedersen, Poul (Denmark)
    Pentrelli, Luis (Argentina)
    Petakovic, Aleksandar (Yugoslavia)
    Piters, Andre (Belgium)
    Rajkov, Zdravko (Yugoslavia)
    Van Der Kuil, Piet (Netherlands)

    Left-Wingers:
    Belen, Raul (Argentina)
    Blunstone, Frank (England)
    Collar, Enrique (Spain)
    Cruz, Osvaldo (Argentina)
    Cucchiaroni, Ernesto (Argentina)
    Escalada, Guillermo (Uruguay)
    Grainger, Colin (England)
    Holden, Doug (England)
    Houf, Denis (Belgium)
    Kraus, Tadeas (Czechoslovakia)
    Körner, Alfred (Austria)
    Kucukandonyadis, Lefter (Turkey)
    Liposinovic, Luka (Yugoslavia)
    Quarentinha (Brazil)
    Sanchez, Leonel (Chile)
    Vollmar, Heinz (Germany)

    Inside Forwards:
    Antenen, Charles (Switzerland)
    Bartu, Can (Turkey)
    Broadbent, Peter (England)
    Brodd, Yngve (Sweden)
    Bubukin, Valentin (USSR)
    Chinesinho (Brazil)
    Cisowski, Thadee (France)
    Coluna, Mario (Portugal)
    Dida (Brazil)
    Douis, Yvon (France)
    Geiger, Rolf (Germany)
    Gratton, Guido (Italy)
    Göröcs, Janos (Hungary)
    Hof, Erich (Austria)
    Isayev, Anatoli (USSR)
    Lindskog, Bengt (Sweden)
    Lojacono, Francisco (Argentina/Italy)
    Luizinho Trochillo (Brazil)
    Machos, Ferenc (Hungary)
    Meier, Eugen (Switzerland)
    Mekhloufi, Rachid (Algeria/France)
    Moravcik, Anton (Czechoslovakia)
    Peiro, Joaquin (Spain)
    Pivatelli, Gino (Italy)
    Pizzuti, Juan Jose (Argentina)
    Reyes, Salvador (Mexico)
    Rijvers, Kees (Netherlands)
    Robson, Bobby (England)
    Romero, Juan Angel (Paraguay)
    Schröder, Willi (Germany)
    Tejada, Justo (Spain)
    Ujlaki, Joseph (Hungary/France)

    Centre-Forwards:
    Akesbi, Hassan (Morocco)
    Brighenti, Sergio (Italy)
    Firmani, Eddie (South Africa/Italy)
    Gino Orlando (Brazil)
    Hugi, Josef (Switzerland)
    Indio (Brazil)
    Kevan, Derek (England)
    Miguez, Oscar (Uruguay)
    Molnar, Pavol (Czechoslovakia)
    Mudie, Jackie (Scotland)
    Mujic, Muhamed (Yugoslavia)
    Oktay, Metin (Turkey)
    Sasia, Jose (Uruguay)
    Van Der Linden, Tonny (Netherlands)
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  15. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    So there we go, mission accomplished. Everything is finally finished, right? Wrong. Taking a look at the early 60s, I already noticed several players that I included too haphazardly who should be dropped. There are also some who I suspect might have been unfairly neglected in WS-reporting and deserve another chance. So revisions will be made, and indeed the early ESM-based lists have already been heavily edited by me. I also promised to publish more second tiers, but I think I'll wait on those until all my revisions are done, so that in the end things will be nice and in order. I'll probably take a break, then keep reading international match reports to get second opinions on players, then return to this topic. Possibly I'll even rank the players in order, even at the risk of arousing a lot of salty comments. :D There isn't a strict schedule, but work will eventually continue.
     
    msioux75, Titanlux and wm442433 repped this.
  16. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    It permits to take a look at many players we may have overlooked.
     
  17. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Villaverde had a career of almost a decade at Barcelona. In the seasons in which I have been able to delve more deeply up to this moment (1957-58, 1958-59 and 1959-60) he had many difficulties to make a niche in the starting team or, at least, to have continuity in it, due to the extraordinary forward of the team (Kubala, Suárez, Kocsis, Eulogio Martínez, Czibor, Tejada and Evaristo, among others). For this reason, it was increasingly difficult for him to play in the extremes or as an interior. Without standing out out of the ordinary, in what I read it used to perform well. I think you do well to include him on this list, although there would be a lot of people (maybe myself) who could argue that Collar was better in the far left position. At this moment I am reading the 1956-57 season very carefully in the Spanish press, after which I will do the same with the 55-56 season and, if you want, I can give you a more argued opinion, although I will try to clarify something else in the thread that I started with the best Spaniards season by season.
     
  18. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Thanks for the info. It's good to keep in mind I don't subscribe completely faithfully to the era restrictions. Collar was already included in the early 60s, so in that sense I lean more towards Villaverde, for whom this is his primary era. That way I can have both players in at tier 1 at one point. Also, although Villaverde has some appearance issues specifically in the late 50s, The seasons 54-55 and 60+ also count for his total tally here.
     
  19. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I'd place W.Martínez to CB, for sure.
    I guess, you mean Nilton De Sordi - RB

    Forwards:
    Maybe, B.Charlton - LW
    Altafini - CF
    Fontaine - FW
     
  20. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #320 msioux75, Dec 19, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
    Paraguay, in my eyes, impressed most of the time in its history as a strong team with great players than a team carried by is stellar players.

    In the 1945-58 era, one of its greatest eras, they had a heavy rotation in the starting XI, practically, finished a tournament 3/5 of their better players were signed abroad, and forced Paraguay to build a new team, in a couple of years. Maybe, and just maybe, some of these players had a short peak in their careers. Doubts coming from the mistery of its league, and being most of the buying clubs, mid level clubs (in Colombia, Brazil, Paraguay, Spain, Italy, France, etc), so their impact is vanished for no being trophy winners.

    So, considering this heavy rotation, overall a very good NT record: 2WCs, 1 SAC title, 2 SAC second place and 2 SAC third places.


    About, T.Terry he was given an offer from Boca, Fluminense, Lazio, etc., but never liked to play abroad. Same with C.Heredia by Peñarol or G.Delgado tempted for Serie-A / La Liga clubs in his prime years.

    J.Fernández impress early in Perú, but I'm sure his prime years were in the 1960-66 era. Instead, G.Delgado was still world class in the 1955-57 years, O.Gómez Sánchez is equally able to being LW/RW.


    btw, it was news to me J.Hewie being S.African.
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

Share This Page