Messi vs. football records

That one won four Ballon d'Ors and all the other prolific goalscorers (except Di Stefano) won one at best?

Some of them being on magic elixers & unremarkable at the youth career is also one of them.

 

You can't just reduce it to "a few national team games here and there", the WC is much more than that. For Cruyff, he led a NT that was a nobody in the international stage, not just to a great achievement in being vice-champions at the WC but establishing a legacy that remains relevant even now. Messi has not done anything remotely close with Argentina, either success or influence. With Barcelona it's closer, this is a team whose greatness and success measures up to Cruyff's Ajax. As for the Dutch reaching the final inWC78 without him, Spain, with the Barca core, won the WC and two Euros sans Messi.

Zanetti is certainly entitled to his opinion, as Argentian's greatest right-back ever he's earned it. But perhaps there may be some agenda considering Maradona dropped him from the WC10 squad, apparently after an incident at a qualifier match that Maradona deemed as rebellious against him.

 

Barcelona also won one Champions League without Messi, with to a large extent the same core of players at the center. So "they didn't lose too much."

And in the two CL finals he played, he was only really great and arguably the best Barca player in one.

And of course Platini did not win one trophy for only winning the national cup. Being the losing European Cup finalist also helped.

And how does the Messi fanboy thinks about "cronaldo" having five Ballon d'Ors under the old rules? Makes him that the second best of all-time?

 

Stop with this deceptive and evil bullshit.

 

You never debunked it dude. You only came up with flawed and far-fetched argumentation like "but without Messi the number four would have won".

Anyway, I should ignore you, the Barca fanboy. Which I'll do from now on.

 

iam sorry this is so stupid misleading.....for the bayern munich players beckenbauer/müller technical only 22 titels was possible to win in this timespan ......this means bayern munich (promoted 1965/66 in the bundesliga, bayern with many young players) must win 6 german championships in row, 6 german cups in row,5 eurochampionscups in row and 5 intercontinental cups in row.....if we put in perspective olso between 1963/64 and 1970/71, 7 diffrent german teams won the german championship the situation was total diffrent on all corners...german players under 18 years wasnt allowed to play senior football...ect..ect.....

 

I don't understand this post, what are the numbers next to the countries and why are you only mentioning those countries?

LOL, so your previous comparison is BS

 

Hes showing how Cruyffs Holland team had 19 players playing in the same league hinting to a higher level of knowing how one another plays a-la spanish team nowadays. And points to how Messi's argentina team are scattered so having that telepathic ability is harder to achieve. You cant really compare Cruyffs national career to messis right now though, Cruyffs clearly superior (in terms of greatness, not ability)

 

You present numbers, and logic is not prelevent in your interpretation of them, more like delusion ranging to lunacy. For example, who in their right mind would suggest there is only 1 game seperating cruyffs international legacy and messis? the numbers you carefully selected are not false, but your interpretation as usual is utter madness.

 

The point which you missed is that the difference between cruyff at 74 and messi at 10 is a whole lot more than, as you put it, one game, its a demeaning and twisted slant. Its his entire performance, his unique style, its helping your team to the final and providing great moments, as opposed to .... flunking the first real challenge in the quarter final with your tail between your legs achieving nothing significant, accept having teammates score off a couple of rebounds because you couldn't score yourself.

Another point, the arrangement of games was different, the differences in wins might 1, but cruyff helped holland win more than 1 more big match than messi did, and the final itself contributed to cruyffs legacy as well for his great imputs, suchas dribbling from about half way to win a penallty

 

I see, thanks.

How many team mates did Maradona had in Argentina at WC 86 or 90? Zero, didn't stop him from winning one and reaching the final in the other.

Your comparison is not valid at least for Beckenbauer and Muller.

Cruyff's is against a team featuring Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Netzer, Overath, Breitner and Schwarzenbeck. Just a bunch of scrubs, correct?

 

Strange that Maradona has now come out and said that Messi is not as good as himself anymore. What do these guys (Pele & Maradona) stand to gain by saying things like these, it seems Maradona is now suffering from the same paranoia as Pele, never thought hed be like that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo.../Diego-Maradona-says-better-Lionel-Messi.html

 

While Maradona's WC 86 was undoubtedly the best individual performance at a world cup, theres no need to perpetuate false lies, such as him winning it single handedly and having scrub team mates.

Here's a great article debunking the myth of Maradona:
http://www.averageopposition.com/2012/03/the-myth-of-maradona.html

For information, I have maradona ranked as number 2 of all time, with Pele at number 1 and his career also has some debunking that needs to be done.

In regards of Cruyff reaching the finals of the world cup lets keep in mind that his team mates were also great. Maradona is one of the only ones who can lay claim to being the biggest difference maker with NT success.

 

Of course South Americans have always superior ability

But it is as usual false reasoning.

The 1974 starting line-up was the first time they played in that composition. The goalkeeper was a change, the center-back pair was a change, Rensenbrink was unavailable for multiple years and also the famed midfield (Van Hanegem-Neeskens-Jansen) was never used before (in every other game before the WC another midfield triangle was used, and that is true).

19 players at the same league doesn't mean that they all play in the same team, and that those teams had the same playing concept. That wasn't the case and it needed to be reconciled. The great divisions between those club teams was a main bottleneck why they never reached a tournament before. Cruijff is a main reason why something such as a somewhat coherent 'Dutch style' came into being. Coherency didn't exist (related to the power of clubs vis-a-vis the FA, which was also the main reason why they did not reach WC70).

Indeed, Cruijff played with some Ajax buddies. But he only knew Suurbier (and Keizer) from the very beginnings. He knew Neeskens from his last three Ajax seasons, Rep from his very last season, Krol from his last four seasons and Haan was a starter in the last two seasons he played there.
That is all not particularly long and certainly no guarantee for developing a telepathic understanding. If anything, the ability to do so hints at his own abilities.

As for him losing against the host: I don't blame him for losing against an inherently cheating and evil nation, which prevented him from sleeping for two days thanks to dirty tricks, and sent some staff back to home as well.


Bada Bing is crying about Messi not playing at his home continent and raised in Spain. What he of course fails to see is the advantages it brought to his career and development as player.

Finally, Messi himself likes to give the impression that he is still Argentinian. He cherishes forcefully his Argentinian accent (and prevents he adopts a Spanish one), eats Argentinian food and also chose for the Argentinian NT (not Spanish one) exactly because he feels Argentinian, playing in the Argentinian football style. Knowing some of those guys he met from his days as a boy.

And that is crucial of course; they eventually ended at various places across Europe but they are all raised with the same cohesive Argentinian mindset - which Messi himself likes to stress when it comes down to his nationality. And how many caps has Messi already? How many times did he play together with Aguero etc. for the under 21 team? For under 17? Under 15? I can tell you that Cruijff never played any game for the under 21/under 20 team (which back then already existed btw).


I really feel suggesting that Cruijff was lucky to be part of the Netherlands is turning reality on its head. That is a bit like saying how Eusebio was lucky to play for Portugal and Pelé unlucky to play for Brazil.
Cruijff is a major reason why (the still not very beloved and respected) Netherlands is ahead of Argentina in the historical ELO rating.

I will end with a quote from one of Messi his biggest PR dudes and cheerleaders:
"Without him there would be no Lionel Messi, Xavi, Andres Iniesta or Pep Guardiola" - Graham Hunter

 

I never said Messi had superior ability than Cruyff

 

My apologies.

I btw think he has superior ball control but that is also evolution etc. (impossible to compare two vastly different eras).