RONALDO 98 pulled a CRUYFF 74! (R9 had better numbers though) both leaders led their teams to the WC Final. Unfortunately, R9 was not 100%... Bottom line is this: R9 is a two-time WC winner and a two-time Copa America winner! MVP and TOP Scorer in both competitions
Maybe you should've blamed Zagallo, because he chose to put too much pressure on the young shoulders of Ronaldo to carry Brazil to glory and as result maybe it was the reason for his meltdown/"injury" before the final. Or maybe Zagallo's fault was that he thought Ronaldo was "dominant" enough as people like you claim here to lead them to the title. Argetina was not the favorites despite having the best player - a in-form Lionel Messi. Do you wanna know why?! No doubt Germany were better than Argentina....because they were better organized, had more balance and had better game plan throughout the whole tournament. The game also started in the best way possible for them with an early goal from set-piece inside 2 minutes. But Messi was the only one who tried to do something to change the game. Unfortunately for him and all Argentineans, the rest of the team went MIA - Tevez and Higuain were complete handicaps upfront and the defense was like Swiss cheese. Was Messi supposed to defend, create and score all by himself in that game? Even the great Pele, Maradona and Cruyff were unable to all those things at the same time in their best days. In WC 98, Brazil needed extra time and PKs to get past the first serious opponent they faced (Holland) and the next big opponent in the final (France) totally outplayed them pretty much the same way Germany did Argentina. However, I believe that French team was better than Germany 2010 and Brazil were better than Argentina 2010, because of each respective team's organization and structure on the field. Many people omit to realize that even if Argentina got past Germany, they would've faced Spain in the semi-final. They had very difficult rout to an eventual final - playing Mexico, Germany and Spain was going to be extremely difficult for any nation to face on the way to the final.
Yes but this is Ronaldo by 23 not his whole career. Messi never appeared in the whole game vs Germany. I have the game on my Dvr and I have rewatched it a couple of times, never does Messi ever pose a serious threat. IMO, Maradona, Pele , Cruyff, would have had a better game and would have put their teams on their shoulders not like Messi ever did. Messi was lost in that game, like C.R. was lost in the Barca thrashing. Simple as that. They both tried but couldn't. Period.
R9 wasn't 100% only in the final though. To counter your bottom line comment since you brought up team achievements: The first WC title, Ronaldo didn't play for, while the second one he was older than 23. Messi has U20 WC title, Olympic gold medal, two CLs (R9 doesn't even have one), three La Liga titles ( R9 has just one) and 6 trophies in the same year, by the time he is 23! And I predict that in 2011 he will have his third WPOY award in a row, as well as Copa America winners medal.
1) Actually Zagallo didn't want RONALDO to play in the final (his name didn't appear in the starting line-up at first). BUT it was RONALDO who went up to Zagallo and told him: "Don't treat me as if I were a kid. I want to play". He did his best... 2) Because Argentina and Messiwere piss poor in the WC qualifiers? Yes, that must be it! 3) This is the same team that eliminated Argentina. Holland 98 was a stronger side than Holland 2010, IMHO. Nope, Messi wasn't suppose to defend! BUT if he had at least TRIED out there he wouldn't have gotten as much criticism. How come he didn't try to pull of those Maradonian runs? Oh yeah I forgot he wasn't playing against Malaga, Racing, etc.
You make too much sense. I would just like to add that Germany had the toughest road the cup. England, Argentina, Spain, Holland, jeesh.
He had scored 44 goals in 44 games prior to the 94 WC. R9 was chosen over the likes of Rivaldo and Roberto Carlos. Then he reached the 1998 WC Final and won the cup for a second time in 2002 (after being out for nearly 2 years) and not being 100% again. The Copa America will take place in Argentina, what else can Messi ask for? I guess you don't get it, do you? Cruyff and Di Stefano won WAY MORE than Maradona but EL DIEGO is considered better than both simply because: HE DELIVERED IN THE BIGGEST STAGE OF THEM ALL! Messi may win 5 more Ballon D'Ors and 3 more UCL's but I bet he would trade all of those awards and UCLs for a WC
Brazil were always favorites and for most of the decade they were one of the top if not the top team in the world. What are you going on about? Zagallo actually had tons of prior coaching experience. Diego's experience was coaching Racing for a short stint that was a disaster. You can't even begin to say that Argentina 2010 had a better midfield than Brazil 98, and thier defense was vastly superior. Why are you comparing a striker who played as a striker to a forward who played as a AM/CM? It's pretty telling that you only focus on the NT career.
Mascherano, Di Maria, Maxi/Veron < Dunga, Sergio Sampaiao, Leonardo, and Rivaldo. Tevez, Higuain, Messi > Ronaldo, Bebeto If you were to put MESSI in midfield or just a tad behind the strikers (this is how Maradona used him) then you have a better midfield than Brazil. Tevez & Higuain are still better than RONALDO and a 34 year old Bebeto. Brazil barely qualified in 2002 (R9 was out injured) and became WC champions after RONALDO joined Brazil, I wonder why...? Apparenlty so do historians. Most people consider Maradona > Di Stefano and Cruyff. And probably one of the main reasons why Pele is considered the greatest ever is because he won 3 World Cups, no? Or am I exaggerating?
Dunga, Leonardo and Rivaldo were players who were able to control a midfield and generate plays. Maxi, DiMaria were both played in awkard positions and were asked to do things they weren't used to. On paper they look better but on the field it's different. Mascherano was the only ball winner in that midfield. That's not how Maradona used him and this has been discussed to a large extent already. Thats 2002. For most of the decade aka 90's Brazil were one of the top if not the top NT in the world. No, all you are doing is going on tangents without actually debating and looking at all the facts. All you've done is list a bunch of awards most which are meaningless to prove a point.
1) They were able to generate plays, but R9 finished with more assists? Again nobody was crying when Argentina were on a roll! They faced a better team and they paid the price, simple as that. 2) Maradona: Which means: Maradona placed MESSI behind two strikers... http://www.informador.com.mx/deportes/2010/204578/6/messi-no-siente-presion-con-argentina.htm 3) I'm only speaking the truth
Nobody expected Argentina to go far in the tournament because of the reasons mentioned above and as soon as a tough opponent was faced Maradona's inexperience as a coach and with tactics was exposed. This doesn't mean anything if you actually watched the matches. Maradona can say whatever he wants, what was seen on the pitch was different.
OK, just look back at Zico clips and you can tell he is not that "low" (side by side with others tall European players in Italy) relatively to Messi or Maradona against other. my point is that low center gravity does not mean much when come to great players in dribbling skills. Now take off Rivelino, Zico, still ALOT of very good dribblers with good heights ranging from 1m78 to 1m98: - Jay Jay Okocha, Cruijff, Roanldo, Van Basten Zidane Stoitchkov Suker Cantona Henry Cafu Figo Giggs Zanetti Rivaldo Ronaldinho Falcao Socrates to ... lately Ibrahimovic , C.Ronaldo Yes RO-RO partnership was ALL REASON for Brazil being favourite of that WC, beside the "uninspired midfield" line up. However, It was NOT Zagalo who excluded Romario in WC98. His injuries could NOT recover in time and in FACT, he was only withdrawn from the list at very last minute. a big blow up for that team. YET the 21yrs old Ronaldo stepped up and led the team to the final - Thats untrue. Brazil98 team would be the worst team ever (in name )if they did ever win). The true HOPE was put on Ro-Ro pair, not any chance by a Ro-Ri ... (which would have come up four years later). At that WC98, after the shameful lost to Norway, Zagalo made Ronaldo to pull back to fulfill the attacking inspiration that was lacked off. Now look back to see how "good" 98 compared to their previous and next WC team: as they appeared even worse than WC06 team in attack and defense! ======= Win ==Lost ===GF == GA Brazil94 .. .5.........0........11......3 Brazil98.....4.........2........14.....10 Brazil02.....7.........0........18......4 Bottom line, at YOUNGER age tha Messi, Ronaldo international performance put Messi in the DARK: - no doubt -Copa97: Won Copa 5goals+3ass (scored in final)= MVP of copa97 -confed97: won cup 4goals+2ass, scored hattrick in final, key suppy for Romario - WC98: finalist, 4goals+3ass Golden ball of that WC -UEFAcup: 6goals and won best forward + MVP of BOTH UEFA + CL (he was the ONLY player in UEFAcup to ever win such award -by pass all other good players in UCL that same year: Delpiero, Zidane, Raul Suker Laudrup Redondo - Copa99: won cup with 5goals+1ass as top scorer (tied with Rivaldo)
1) He did his best? Then I guess his best wasn't good enough. 2) Not exactly. They weren't favorites because, unlike Brazil and Spain, people knew Diego didn't have a game plan for Argentina, which was obvious after leaving out players like Zanetti and Cambiaso. 3) I have no idea what are you talking about. What same team that eliminated Argentina? What part does Holland 2010 play in the argument? Messi was the only one playing against Germany. What is a Maradonian run? Do you Messi do those type of runs anymore for Barca? It doesn't matter how many goals Ronaldo scored before WC 94 and who's place he was taken instead of. He still didn't play even a second in any of Brazil's games in that WC. There are no Ronaldo performances to be judged. In 2002, Ronaldo was older than 23. Let's keep this argument until that age. Who said Messi is asking for anything more than having the Copa in Argentina? If Maradona is considered as better than Cruyff, the why is the Dutchman considered better than Beckenbauer? Didn't Franz also deliver more than Johan at the biggest stage of all? When Maradona (for me he is the best player of all time, btw) delivered for Argentina, the team had a great game plan and organization. He didn't do the same as the coach in the last WC. I agree with the last sentence - Messi, as well as any player, would trade any other award for a WC title. No argument there. But that title doesn't make one player greater than another one alone. Again, think about Cruyff vs Beckenbauer - who is considered/accepted as better player and who won the WC title? Also once again, when Ronaldo was 23, his WC winners medal from 94 was without any performance to be judged on.
Yes, you are exaggerating a little bit. Brazil 98 > Argentina 2010 as an organized team with structure and strategy. Brazil was also using two defensive midfielders in the center, which provided useful balance to the attacking midfielders (Rivaldo, Leonardo) and the attackers (Bebeto, Ronaldo). Zagallo left out Romario for two reasons: 1) Bebeto was considered better partner for R9 and a more willing to work hard for the team/unselfish, 2) Romario's ego was gonna take over the team and overshadow the young talented R9. Diego didn't provide any balance to the team. He took too many high level forwards, even though he knew he wasn't going to use them all appropriately. Actually he made up his mind just before the start of the WC that he wanted to use Higuain, Tevez and Messi together, when earlier he was settled on just Higuain and Messi upfront as a partnership. Choosing to switch at the last moment, caused Messi to be pushed deeper into a more midfield role and took away the balance of the strategy in the center since Mascherano was left alone. This made the omission of Zanetti and Cambiaso even stranger. Remember the friendly between Germany and Argentina in the spring? When in that game, both teams had their preliminary best XIs. For Argentina, Messi was playing as second striker in partnership with Higuain. Leo was playing great, as was the whole team, but Diego messed it up for the WC. I think you should also stop talking about Ronaldo in 2002. He was 26 years old by then. The comparison Messi vs Ronaldo is until 23 years old.
First bold, you only "speculated" so let's get straight to the facts: -----------------P--W-D-L--GF-GA Brazil1998 .........7....4..1..2...14- 10 Argentina10.......5.....4..0..1...10- 6 A team allowed 10goals/7games is HARDLY a good defensive and "organized" team per se. In FACT, up to guarter final (5games) Brazil98 had similar stat to Argentina 2010: P5 W3 D1 L1 13-6 (thanks to Ronaldo goal that lead Brazil to penalty shoot out winning over Holland in Semifinal- a nation with bad pk scoring rate. Second bold, while I agree that Romario's ego was big, I said earlier; Romario was left out of WC98 for being NOT FIT! (nothing to do with Zagalo decision as he he HAD NO CHOICE). ONLY, In 2002, Romario was definitely left out by Scolari decision (Romario was in his best form in Brazil that year)! Romario had never "overshadow" the young Ronaldo at any time playing together. FACT1: despite playing from behind, Ronaldo came up with similar goal stats (as Romario) while playing together from Copa97 to Confed97: - Ronaldo 9goals+5ass/10games (won MVP of copa97) - Romario 10goals+1ass/10games (won Topscorer confed97) FACT2: Romario was the one demanding Ronaldo (17yrs old) to be his partner at WC94 (he is smart as he knows he will only be better with Ronaldo behind, who can score and supply and among the BEST 1 TOUCH player that suited well to Romario fast turn & finishing). However, Parreira played safe with the inform Bebeto (former pichichi 93)
Ronaldo had a compulsive fit before that final, he was good enough to take the team the the Final, based on your logic Messi should be the worst player ever, since he only managed 0 goals and took his team to the quarterfinal. Didn't Messi do his best also?? You are ignoring that fact that Offensive players will ALWAYS have a large advantage to defenders when deciding who is better (no matter who performed where or what). It's a fact. In most lists Beck doesn't even make the top 10, why because he stopped goals rather than scoring them.
You continue to miss the point of Messi's role, continue to overrate Ronaldo "taking the team to the final" while ignoring all the other key players that team had, and and continue to compare a striker to a player who's a forward forced to play AM/CM completely out of position. Are you trolling at this point?
This is just all wrong. I'm 100% sure that Brazil was the favourite to win it all back in 1998 and I know that people who were around back then - like I was - can back me up on this. If you don't believe me just open a thread and see for yourselve. On the bolded part: You are right they had 0 wins in their WCQ. And now try to guess why. Are you mixing up 1998 and 2002?
No I am not trolling at this point. You keep defending Messi, and devaluating Ronaldo's importance in that NT, Argentina had world class players also. Are you trolling?
Beckenbauer absolutly should be considered better than Cruyff. Won WC/Euro/3xCL all as (one of) the best player/captain of his team Made the Team of the Tournament in each of his Euro/WC appearances - that's FIVE times World Class player in Bundesliga for 10 years https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1516240&page=2
Whooooooshhhhhhhhh. When have I devaluated Ronaldo's performance in the cup? I'm simply giving credit as well to some of the other incredible players they had, you know being favorites and all, which you can't seem to do.