Yes, but, while you're trying to insinuate that Arena got the job because he supported the MLS cause the fact that 1, 2, and 3 are true doesn't mean that Arena got the job because MLS/SUM told USSF to do it. When he got hired the second time it was because Klinsmann had started a tire fire and his solution was to ask it to try harder to stop burning, we were in a really precarious place in the Hex, and who the hell else was available, willing and capable of doing ANYTHING to try to turn it around? I think Arena is a narcissist, and made clearly shitty choices in the last game of the Hex, but otherwise did a very good job of turning the team around in short order. And I still think that firing Klinsmann and hiring Arena was the best option.
no, you ignored the main point of the discussion to put in a sidebar that has little do so with the point.
I just responded to a post. Forgive me that I've not got the energy and time to respond to every post with all my thoughts on each one.
stop. The whole point of the recent discussion is arena’s obvious bias and you’ve simply side-stepped it to interject and now are playing coy. it’s amazing how you and a couple other oft-rationale posters won’t allow yourselves to even address Arena’s obvious bias. FFS, he said what he thought the coach should do (favor MLS) and then put it into action (MLS participation jumped materially). it has nothing to do with Klinsmann other than that he pissed off MLS by stating the obvious (our better players would have a harder time staying sharp while playing in a lesser league).
This is where we differ. There was plenty of discussion around the time of the hire on who was available. I think Arena peaked in 2002 on the international stage and hiring a guy who was at least a decade outdated is a poor idea. That's looking at a tree. The forest view is USSF is an insulated circle living in a bubble that rarely hires outside of said circle. Meanwhile, the game progresses around us.
No, I just see the reasons for Arena getting a second shot differently than you. It was more of a "hold your nose" moment, because the situation was shitty. I'm sure Don Garber would have been holding his head high had the US qualified for the World Cup, and claiming credit for it.
the point isn’t whether Klinsmann was a bad choice for a second term (he was) or if arena should have led us to qualification (he should have). the issue is that he is and was biased towards MLS and against dual Americans and did he act upon it as coach? That is indisputably true on both counts even if a poster think that he wasn’t because he called in some players from Europe.
Arena has his biases like any coach has. Arena happened to think the players he called up from MLS were better calls than players another coach (or BS posters) might have called who played in European leagues at the time. There's hardly a clear answer as to what the "best 11" would have been. He led us to the WC, only to then f*ck it up on the last day.
the reason he prefers MLS is because he thinks that dual Americans aren’t American and he thinks that as many players should come from MLS as possible due to marketing reasons as well. He didn’t lead us the WC - he failed miserably and his MLS bias was a leading reason why. FFS, he said exactly what he thought and then he acted upon it. I have no idea why you refuse to acknowledge the very simple fact - it’s reminiscent of Republicans and trump when they refuse to call a spade a spade.
I can see why many view this the way they do but when I first heard it I thought he was saying that after all this time the US is only using dual nationals that grew up in other countries then MLS has failed. Klinsman used a lot of them as a crutch because the talent pool had tanked. A national team can only make long term progress if their local league(s) are producing talent as trying to convince dual nationals is a hit or miss proposition. Here is another in my opinion often misunderstood quote. If you disagree with my take above it follows that he only or mostly wants MLS players. If you agree with my take then you can expand on the MLS players to he wants the local league (MLS) to produce talent. That talent can then stay in MLS (Donovan) or go elsewhere (Dempsey). If MLS doesn't produce then we go through a lost generation like we just did. In 2002 did Arena only play players that were in MLS at that time? Did he not play dual nationals? Dual nationals are kind of like free agents in US sports leagues - there to fill in gaps. Teams that are forced to build a whole team around them are in trouble. It's not the same as saying you won't ever play them.
Yes, that was part of his quote. Many of us thought that MLS has failed to develop american players. I dont see any other conclusion that Arena actually proved it. Of course the powers that be and MLS fans continue to deny it. Klinsmann followed the rules to bring as many players possible into the pool... just like every country around the world does. This last sentence is a myth that MLS fans have been touting for years. Where is the drop off in potential dual nationals? There are quite a few out there right night that could really reinforce the pool. There is no reason that we shouldn't be aggressively trying to get them into our system. There is no reason that the national team should be held back by an organization that hasnt shown itself capable of developing young players or even see it as their responsibility to do it for the national team. There are very few MLS players that would make any of our world cup squads in the past. I could probably count them on one hand. I dont see the desire of MLS fans to use these lesser players to make qualifying for the WC a big challenge and if they made it, get results that are reminiscent of 1990 and 98.
A lot of our former national team players started in MLS and moved on. There are players in MLS now and in academies that will also do this. Saying that a strong MLS that brings talent up to the national team is not the same as saying only play players currently in MLS for the national team.
respectfully, Pegasus, that was not what he meant. I clearly remember the comments at the time. His comments about players being American have nothing to do with being disappointed that domestic talents weren’t very good - it was very clearly being biased against those he felt were less American than those he thought of as real Americans. Let’s not forget that When he said what he said, it was at the same time that wambach said that Jermaine Jones had no business being on the team no matter how good he was. Arena never walked back his evil comments until he was forced to when named as coach. Furthermore, it is absolutely true that he was biased towards MLS as compared to the coaches before and right after, he named MLS players at a far higher rate.
If the meaning of arena’s comments above was that he was disappointed in the talent that was developed by MLS (instead of being biased), why the heck would he pick more of them to staff his team when he became coach? It doesn’t make sense to say that there’s not enough talent but I’m going to rely on them at a far higher rate.
Coaches have biases that inform their decisions. Ultimately, they are judged by their results. Jurgen Klinsmann certainly had his own biases, particularly against domestically-born American players and US sports culture. Maybe they informed some of his poor decision and the results that were outcomes of those decisions: Jurgen questioning the "self-belief" of US-born players (which players themselves spoke out against): "But it’s also the American players when they go to Europe to prove that they can be big players in Europe. So it’s also down to do they have the belief? They have the qualities, but do they have the belief?...We have good players, but we don’t have the belief yet that we belong in there." (mind you, this is a US team that accomplished far less against top sides than any other going back to 1994) Jurgen questioning mentality of American youth players: "They are sitting on benches in Mexico, in European leagues, in MLS teams. A lot of our younger players struggle to understand that it takes a lot more work and determination and aggressiveness to really make it to become a consistent, driven professional.” Jurgen blasts US sports culture in for rewarding stars past their prime: "This always happens in America...why does he get a two-year contract extension for $50 million? Because of what he is going to do in the next two years for the Lakers? Of course not. Of course not. He gets it because of what he has done before. It makes no sense." Jurgen thinks American players are naive; need to get "nastier", bug the ref: "We need to get an edge, more nastier...Maybe we're a little bit still too naive. Maybe we don't want to hurt people...get them more frustrated and make a case with the referee maybe as well, for us, not only the opponent." So it seems like Jurgen had a lot of opinions about the mentality of players born and coming through the US system. Might these opinions have caused him to have a biases for players born elsewhere or came through other systems? (in Germany, they criticize Jurgen's son by calling him "too American"). Well, it lead to judgement calls like taking far inferior players like Julian Green and Mix Diskerud to the WC -- the highest honor an American player can achieve -- and leaving Donovan home (does anyone think Diskerud and Green are mentally tougher / more professional than Donovan??). But that is a coaches discretion. You judge them on the results. It just happens that the results were that Jurgen didn't manage a single win against a top 10 NT, unlike his two predecessors. He earned a WC record for shots conceded against a 2nd tier Belgian side (meaning his team gave up more shots than other team in history, including past US teams that've three times gone up against eventual WC finalists). Toward his end, he was losing to Guatemala. For all his talk of mentality, Jurgen's US squad was the least fearsome of the modern era (outside of friendlies), despite having Donovan, Dempsey, Bradley, Jones, F. Johnson, Howard, Beasley at his disposal.
Wait -- which part is BS? That Arena was brought in because Jurgen was failing? Then please explain how the MLS owners got Jurgen to fail so spectacularly that they could get their man (Arena) in to manipulate the NT call-ups to their advantage (just so they could decline them later, btw). Klinsmann played right into their hands on that one. Also, it did work to some extent. Arena's team earned more points and scored more goals than Klinsmann's, which you wouldn't expect if he truly picked an inferior team due to personal biases. (hint: you'd expect the truly inferior team to perform worse. Which coach's team performed worse in the Hex?)
Are you saying Arena did better in the Hex, finishing 5th, than Klinsy did in winning the Hex going away prior to the '14 WC? Or are you saying that, since Klinsy's team lost to Mexico and CR to start the Hex, Arena's team did better compared to that (ie. moving up from 6th place to 5th)?