Meanwhile, the 300th murder for Texas...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Mar 10, 2003.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    From the IHT:

    The war trumps all other issues, so insufficient attention will be paid to the planned demise of Delma Banks Jr., a 43-year-old man who is scheduled in about 24 hours to become the 300th person executed in Texas since the resumption of capital punishment in 1982.

    Banks, a man with no prior criminal record, is most likely innocent of the charge that put him on death row. Fearing a tragic miscarriage of justice, three former federal judges (including William Sessions, a former director of the FBI) have urged the U.S. Supreme Court to block Wednesday's execution.

    So far, no one seems to be listening.

    "The prosecutors in this case concealed important impeachment material from the defense," said Sessions and the other former judges, John Gibbons and Timothy Lewis, in an extraordinary friend-of-the court brief.


    According to the Bedford Times Mail in Indiana, Delma Banks Jr.'s trial lawyer, Lynn Cooksey, told the trial judge at the time Banks was convicted of murder that he had done little preparation, never visited the crime scene and did not have key information that he was supposed to have gotten from the prosecutors — including the criminal records of prosecution witnesses. Cooksey presented no witnesses during the trial, relying solely on cross-examination.

    In addition, Cooksey prepared no witnesses to testify on Banks' behalf at the trial's penalty phase. When an all-white jury returned a guilty verdict against the black defendant at 11 p.m., Banks' mother Ellean fainted in the courtroom. After friends revived her, she received another jolt. Cooksey told her she needed to call her minister to round up some witnesses who could testify on her son's behalf the following morning when the trial's penalty phase would commence. Several witnesses testified that Banks was a nice, church-going young man but offered little else.

    A disgrace.
     
  2. Waingro

    Waingro Member

    Feb 15, 2003
    San Diego, CA.
    "He was in Dallas, more than three hours away from Texarkana, when Whitehead was killed, according to the best estimates of the time of death, based on the autopsy results."

    I'm sure he was asleep at the time...
     
  3. Michael K.

    Michael K. Member

    Mar 3, 1999
    There or Thereabouts
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Texas Death Row Inmate Gets a Last-Minute Stay

    With 12 minutes to live, the man gets a stay. Best news I've heard all day.

    Just minutes before the scheduled execution tonight, the United States Supreme Court granted an indefinite stay to Delma Banks Jr., 44, a black man sent to death row after an all-white jury convicted him in the murder and robbery of a white teenager 23 years ago.

    -------------------------------------------------

    Jim Marcus, executive director of the Texas Defender Service, which represents Texans sentenced to death, said, "Clearly, it's rare for the court to step in and stay a case at the last minute, so it's clearly troubled by one or more aspects of this case."

    -------------------------------------------------

    Mr. Banks's prospects for a 11th-hour stay of execution appeared more hopeful than those of other inmates because a team of former federal judges and prosecutors, including William S. Sessions, a former F.B.I. director and federal judge, had appealed to the Supreme Court to halt the execution.

    Mr. Sessions was joined by John J. Gibbons, former chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, in Philadelphia; Timothy K. Lewis, a former Third Circuit judge; and Thomas Sullivan, a former United States attorney.

    They cited findings, some uncovered since Mr. Banks's many earlier appeals, that included suppression of evidence, undisclosed payment of a critical witness, perjured testimony, indifferent defense counsel at the trial and racial discrimination in the jury selection.

    Prosecutors never found witnesses to the crime, evidence directly tying Mr. Banks to it, or established a motive. Mr. Banks never confessed and said he was in Dallas when prosecutors said it occurred.

    Fifteen years ago, he turned down a plea agreement that would have given him a life sentence with a possible parole in return for a confession. He continued to maintain his innocence.
     
  5. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    There's already an abortion thread.


    Alex
     
  6. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    What the hell are you talking about? Did you even bother to read this thread?
     
  7. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    New Caledonia
  8. Paul. A

    Paul. A Member

    Mar 16, 1999
    Wales, UK
    How about executing Bush!
     
  9. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    We shouldn't execute anybody.
     
  10. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Even the baddies who execute a predetermined plan to lets say: rob a bank, take multiple innocent lives in the process, and are caught red-handed, (with no chance of "grabbing the wrong guy?)

    Manslaughter charges are a tough area, but there are clear cut cases that demand a clear cut answer without gumming up the legal system with typical bull***************..
     
  11. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    In my view, even those guys.

    "We shouldn't execute anybody" was a pretty unambiguous statement, IMO.
     
  12. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    a pretty soft, ineffective one also...

    Not only does this send the message to the murderer that there is always, a second chance if they "get caught", it isnt fair to the victims families..
    And forget the notion of rehab, anyone sick enough to premeditate a murder crime is too far gone to "fix", and is also a waste of space/tax dollars...
     
  13. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    You're working under the incorrect assumptions that a) the death penalty is an effective deterrent and b) that's my sole reasoning. Since it's not, whether or a not a criminal faces the death penalty is irrelevant.

    Fair and just mean two different things.

    You're entitled to your opinion.
     
  14. Minnman

    Minnman Member+

    Feb 11, 2000
    Columbus, OH, USA
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed.
     
  15. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    Three(hundred) cheers for the rootin'est, tootin'est, executin'est state in the union!
     
  16. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    You'll have to hold the cheers. They're stuck at 299.
     
  17. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    How we respond to these people, in my view, says more about who we are than anything else.

    Be it an individual, state or nation: if any of the above kill with intent, that's murder.

    State or National killing of murderers tells the nation and the world that in the U.S., murder is okay, as long as the state empowers you to do it.

    Murder is wrong, above and beyond state or federal sanction, im my opinion. This seems to be where you and I differ; I want the nation, and each state, to reflect this "higher truth," whereas you want the nation to be able to pick and choose, and are willing to kill innocent men to get "justice."

    As a member of a family who suffered a gunshot murder, let me tell you: America can't provide justice in that circumstance; the "just" thing is for the dead person to be alive, happy and healthy.

    America's justice system, ANY justice system, can only give you the next best thing to the just thing. Where many "advanced" nations have submitted that their vision of the next best thing is a life behind bars to think about it, America's "next best thing" is the taking of yet another life.

    A real difference there.

    Question One: do we, as we claim "the world's greatest nation" mantle, submit this penchant towards killing our citizens as somthing to which other nations should aspire, or as a quirk of our cultural context that should be overlooked in our desire to lead the world towards "freedom"?

    Question Two: How about this: Is the death penalty unconstitutional because it by definition creates a conflict between the 8th and 14th Ammendments?

    In GREGG v Georgia (1976), and many subsequent rulings, The Court has maintained that a test of "cruel AND unusual" is the historic Westen context of the execution as tool and as process (Marshall and Brennan dissented against this view, but let's run with it). In that POV, capital punishment can neither be cruel nor unusual because it has existed throughout the Western historical tradition.

    Now, what IS unique is the period of time those on death row must wait to fully exercise their rights of due process. That is, it is cruel and rather unusual in the Western tradition to make a person wait for their death for as long as we do, yet the only way that a person can do that is to abdicate their 14th Ammendment rights to due process. We seem to have a constitutional dissonance of applicability. In the very conduct of the capital punishment process, either the 8th or the 14th Ammendments must be violated.

    Indeed, this is the "fourth quarter" strategy of many abolition groups, but they fear to employ it on the chance that the due process protocols are wholly eliminated, which many folks want, and lots more people are killed by the state and federal goverments...
     
  18. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    First of all, it is very unfortunate about your family member, and I applaud your ability to see beyond this and still hold strong to an opinion such as yours, I know personally I wouldnt be capable of doing so...

    Who said anything about killing innocent men? My earlier post stressed a type of case where the man was not innocent. You are using an one example to try to do away with an entire law... I guess my problem lies with our self limiting title that we must always take the higher ground regardless of the circumstances. I believe that this allows for criminals to work the system in their favor, always putting the innocent behind the 8 ball..

    to each his own..
     
  19. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Do you think every person ever executed in this country was guilty as charged? If not, is that acceptable collateral damage?

    Once they're dead, does it really matter if they're guilty or innocent?

    Actually, that was using an example to point out an obvious flaw in one form of punishment.

    So we should lower our standards sometimes? Maybe we can also bring in torture while we're at it.

    Higher standards are what this country is supposed to be all about.

    So, seriously, do you think "innocent until proven guilty" is overrated?

    Putting innocent people to death is about as 8-ball as it gets.
     
  20. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Every system, has flaws, the flaws as awful as they are dont justify getting rid of the system b/c they are such a miniscule % of the deaths.
    If you re-read my example you will see my case is a clear cut example of a murder with that allows no room for innocence (the fact that lawyers can wiggle people out of these cases is an entire different thread.)
    And just how high should our standards rise to? High enough to allow our legal system to get walked over and encourage people to try to advantage of it? Nope, I'd rather run the risk of being called a savage by the pacifist clowns and force people to take responsibilty for their actions, and if need be use them as an example to the rest...
    torture you ask? If the situation (ie. stopping a terrorist atack with mass civilian casualties) warrants it, then by all means I am for it. I try to weight the pro and cons of the situation, not stick to idealistic mantras..

    Giving 2nd chances to criminals when they arent warranted and holding yourself to a "higher standard" regardless of the circumstances is simply foolish. If the rest of the world catered to your ideals and obeyed them, I would agree with you..
     
  21. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    You think collateral damage is acceptable. I don't.

    I still don't think we should put him to death.

    We should have the highest standards imaginable

    Demonstrate that this is happening in death penalty cases. If you find someone who "beat the system," I'll bet a dollar he was white.

    It's not a deterrent, so what kind of example do you hope to set exactly, except to show that you're savage?

    You and I are very different people. I'll leave it at that.

    How is life without parole a second chance exactly?

    Come back to me with the other countries in the world that support the death penalty. Then we'll talk.
     
  22. Paul. A

    Paul. A Member

    Mar 16, 1999
    Wales, UK
    I agree!!!
     
  23. Nate505

    Nate505 Member

    Feb 10, 2002
    Colorado
    The death penalty shouldn't be applied as widely as it is applied now (like I wouldn't give it to the average moron who kills a guy robbing a gas station), but for some people I'd be glad to pull the switch myself. Not that the death penalty is a deterrant, just that it makes me feel better (and I'm sure other members of society) when real scumbags are executed. There's nothing in the world that will convince me that it would have been better to give John Wayne Gacey life in prison for the sick acts that he did. People who rape/torture/kidnap before they murder should be executed, IMO. Anyone who murders shouldn't get parole.....they should be stuck in prison for life. It's an absolute disagre that someone like Charles Manson is eligable for parole. I wouldn't have been upset if he were executed.
     
  24. Nate505

    Nate505 Member

    Feb 10, 2002
    Colorado
    I agree. It's would be a disagrace if we allowed the Ted Bundy's of the world to live.

    With the notable exception that 'murder' is defined as the 'unlawful' killing of someone. If the state does it, and if there are laws on the books that allow them to do it, it really isn't unlawful.



    That's my only worry about the death penalty, the possible execution of an innocent man. However, I wish the standards of being executed were a lot tighter than they are now. In most cases, the guy is guilty, and in many cases, the evidence is extremely air tight.



    Capital punishment and freedom have nothing to do with each other. A country is not any more or less 'free' because they practice captial punishment.
     
  25. Sneever Flion

    Sneever Flion New Member

    Oct 29, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    So...what's the difference between locking someone up for life with no chance for parole and executing them? Are they not, in a sense, both the same. In the end, you strip a man of freedom for the rest of his life, you might as well kill him.
     

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