MD21: Juventus vs Roma (February 6th, 2021)

Discussion in 'AS Roma' started by Big Bad Wolf, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. shiboboo

    shiboboo Member+

    Nov 13, 2010
    Club:
    AS Roma
    I'm not sure you're really responding to what I said. My point was that Juve didn't go out on the field today with the intention of playing an ugly game.

    Pirlo wasn't brought in to play effective, sometimes ugly, pragmatic football. That Juve's performance today was closer to past years than his ideal was not a tactical choice on his behalf, but some combination of them being a work in progress and our general play actually being pretty good today.

    I did not comment on our approach today (other than I've been wanting 3 midfielders for a while), but if we had hoofed the ball long and put in dozens of crosses, would we have done better? Maybe? But then again, none of our attackers are particularly adept out of the air. I certainly disagree that our only chance was to make the game ugly. We didn't make the game ugly today and we had a chance.

    They beat us on one terrible cross-field ball from Spinny, poor tracking of Danilo from Cristante and then the best finisher in the world for the last 15 years snapped a shot in the side netting. Yes, maybe we wouldn't have given up this goal had we played deeper overall and played long balls, but we also don't exactly absorb sustained pressure that well this season either. They likely would have gotten their passing rhythm going and we would have given up other goals. Pick your poison.

    Obviously, they're not unbeatable, and another day Ronaldo hits the post or it flashes wide and the game continues on with us in control and putting something together in the final third (which was obviously lacking for us today).
     
  2. Villar14

    Villar14 Red Card

    Dec 15, 2020
  3. Java65

    Java65 Member+

    Oct 2, 2012
    North Carolina
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The problem with falling into default is they wont win a CL that way and now that ACM and Inter are starting to get strong again they can't just coast to a scudetto like they have the last decade.
     
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  4. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    #79 La Magica, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
    I did respond to what you said but you're assuming Pirlo has a defined style when hes still a young pup in the management game. We have really no idea how he will turn out tbh but they didnt like the teething problems of a system with Sarri. They have taken the chance on him because of who he is. Juve dna is pragmatic so Id favour he turns out to be a similar style to they're used to. Functional.

    I would agree with your point if we did this to someone like Atalanta. Took the centre of the pitch and bossed them but this has been played out for a decade at this point against Juve. We've had equally as dominant performances against them with Rudi and they did the same to us. They might have been more clinical on the scoreline given they had a better drilled side 5 years ago but it played out the same overall. On another day Ronaldo hits it wide but they push a little more and more chances unfold. I think if this game was played 10 times, never mind how many wins we would get, Im not sure how many goals we could manage with this game plan so we're on two different pages if you think we had a chance today given what unfolded.

    So that makes the approach everything. If for example the fbs had strict orders to attack one at a time then karsdorp is never out of position and that goal is never given up. Instead of carrying the ball as far as they can go, strict orders to hit an early deep cross every time you see daylight to do so and go with the 2 up front. No over carrying, no hesitating. Do the opposite of what they expect, make them think. We seen how the chances happened to us when we put in those crosses. Even when Mancini lopped in that Sunday league ball to the back post, they're not used to that and it had panic on them. 90 mins of making it awkward for them and the game is a different result . More chance than going out there like we did. Id rather see Roma be pragmatic and play the percentage ball than turn out pretty but losing. Ive seen enough for that for a lifetime already.

    Going direct and having someone like Cristante playing off the striker on the end of second balls. He has heart and at least he fights for every ball. He gets thrown under the bus because hes versatile enough to play multiple positions even if not good enough to excel in them. We seen how he reacted on that volley and we know thats where he made a name for himself. Even the big knob with Mayoral up front or Mikh playing around Dzeko. There is flexibility in the squad with 2 up front. Dzeko might not have deserved it but it was also the perfect game plan for him to show he wants to be part of the group. Go out their and fight for the high ball.

    Force something to happen another way because Juve are still well organised at the back to wait for the time to intercept the passing. I never expected us to do this but I know it would get Roma at least a shot at taking points. Next year I could see this game being played out with the same scenario.
     
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  5. Matrim

    Matrim Member+

    Feb 10, 2014
    Club:
    AS Roma
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Salmeen10

    Salmeen10 Member+

    Jan 10, 2014
    Bahrain
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    Lol I’ve never seen someone get triggered by tactical articles, that is your 6th post crying about it. Don’t like it don’t read it, it’s not for you.
     
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  7. Salmeen10

    Salmeen10 Member+

    Jan 10, 2014
    Bahrain
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    It’s based on shots, not shots on target.

    0.88 is low anyways, and Juve would have had a lot more xG if Ibanez didn’t make that suicidal clearance attempt and the ball reached Cristiano.


    The 100M a year man made the difference in this match, and our rookie defenders didn’t help either.
     
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  8. LordNelson

    LordNelson Member+

    May 29, 2012
    London
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Lopezshit was so poor on the first goal. You guys can say just like our clueless about how this was a "magic" moment... Nah it wasn't. It was an average shot, the positioning of Lopezshit was terrible. Absolutely rubbish. Simple.
     
  9. ErPupone

    ErPupone Member+

    Aug 27, 2015
    Austria
    Club:
    AS Roma
    #84 ErPupone, Feb 7, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
    I know what it's based on. My point was that we weren't better just because our xG was higher (like you pointed out in the second part; xG has it's flaws) because we had our best chances when the game was already over and they didn't have to do anything after their 10th minute goal. We didn't play bad but we were never going to take a point from them.
     
  10. ErPupone

    ErPupone Member+

    Aug 27, 2015
    Austria
    Club:
    AS Roma
  11. Salmeen10

    Salmeen10 Member+

    Jan 10, 2014
    Bahrain
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    The best chance in the game fell to Mancini at the 26th minute, I don’t know what the hell he did there but I’ll give him a pass because he scored 3 important goals recently.
     
  12. Villar14

    Villar14 Red Card

    Dec 15, 2020
     
  13. Villar14

    Villar14 Red Card

    Dec 15, 2020
    1358120849279221766 is not a valid tweet id
     
  14. Java65

    Java65 Member+

    Oct 2, 2012
    North Carolina
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ^This. Roma didn't play a bad game and that goal by CR7 completely changed the game.

    People can analyze the game to death but the game was decided by 2 things. 1) As you point out CR7. World class player that scores on 1/2 a chance. 2) their backline. Their defenders smothered any hint of an attack. Even on the few 1/2 chances Roma got the player was pretty tightly marked.

    Throw in a top GK and a deep bench and it's really not that hard to understand.
     
  15. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nobody isnt understanding it. Roma played a good game but as you said, their defense was never really stretched. Pretty passing isnt penetrating them but looks nice to the casual observer. Small changes in how they approached the game in attack and build up would have made all the difference and theres a good chance they come away with a draw. The legit concern is Fonseca does not see those changes and wont learn.
    https://www.football-italia.net/165998/pirlo-had-planned-defensive-juve
     
  16. Java65

    Java65 Member+

    Oct 2, 2012
    North Carolina
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are being a bit optimistic. Their defense was never really stretched, in large part, because they are so damn good and outside of Mikh our forwards are just ok.

    I'm pretty confident even if we had scored a goal to make it 1-1 or 1-2 Juve simply would have applied more pressure and scored another goal or 3.


    Fonseca was damned if you do, damned if you don't. He loads up the MF to keep possession and the ball away from Juve because he knows that if they (Juve) control the ball the defense will give up 4 or more goals.

    I know we disagree but Roma just aren't that good. They are good enough to compete for a EL spot but this roster is really punching above its weight right now.
     
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  17. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    The only time they looked like conceding was with direct crosses. You cant disagree with that or can you? If the game was still being played we'd still be passing without a goal scored so the game plan played into Juve's hands. What Im saying isnt anything more than setting up the exact same in midfield. There was nothing wrong with the shape or the general play but it was still Juve being ok with Roma doing that. Roma could still keep the ball in spells but be smarter with a few tactical adjustments when on the wing, one full back attacking, early crosses and no need to carry the ball up the line as far as possible before crossing or cutting inside etc and you make Juve really work for it if they're going to score. Of course Juve could still score with a half chance but this way you limit them. When Roma play such aggressive tactics every bad pass can lead to a dangerous chance against them such as the Ronaldo goal. It was a weak goal to concede that doesnt need to be given up. With some changes they could play a game v Juve and have a real chance.
     
  18. Java65

    Java65 Member+

    Oct 2, 2012
    North Carolina
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that our best chances by far were crosses. Trying to pass through them was never going to work against those CB. I just think that Fonseca played a more possession game hoping to nick a goal and not let Juve have the ball and put pressure on our CBs.

    If we had begun the game crossing the ball we would have conceded possession and given Juve more chances to run at our CBs. Juve created very few chances and still scored 2. Heck, they scored goals without even creating the chances themselves. If we had given them more possession they would have scored 5 goals.

    Where I have an issue with Fonseca is banishing Fazio. The guy has no wheels at all but he's a rock solid defender who's very rarely out of place. In a back 2 he's a liability but in a back 3 he's good. Smalling has been bad this season and leaning on just the kids is a disservice to them, IMO.
     
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  19. LordNelson

    LordNelson Member+

    May 29, 2012
    London
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well that is an issue. We don't have a single decent crosser or a free-kick taker. Every time we get a corner or free-kick, we can 100% we will not score a goal. This is either because they do not train this, for whatever reason or because of Fonseca's obsession with Pelleshit.
     
  20. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Scored 5 lol no need to exaggerate that much. Few things you're not considering when you make an incorrect claim like that. The Roma players back in reasonable numbers arnt exposed to the type of chances Roma give up currently via high line and turn overs. Ronaldo chance doesnt happen but it forces them to do something more they wernt expecting to have to do. In turn that also allows Roma a potential opening. It comes down the details in such big games.
    The players may be young and mistake prone but they are talented players who are capable of playing on the same pitch at the top level players. 2. Juve struggled badly under crosses. No reason Roma couldnt force a goal from there. Putting them under pressure left them looking to clear the ball any which way. Its not simply a case of them easily getting the ball and waltzing up the pitch as the Roma players stand in awe of them. This is a Juve side in progress in the build up/attacking phase. Theyre not that dangerous. Is there risks doing what Im saying. Yes but its the only way this team would have a chance to take points. Be smart with what you've got. Instead Fonseca walks away pleased with the performance and I doubt he learns anything from it.
     
  21. shiboboo

    shiboboo Member+

    Nov 13, 2010
    Club:
    AS Roma
    #96 shiboboo, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    I make no predictions regarding how Pirlo will turn out, whether in regards to success or style. But since he has no managerial track record, we can only go off context clues for how he wants his football to play out at this point in time. Those would be his thesis, comments after other games and the appointment of Sarri last year to bring a certain style of football.

    It's not that they didn't like the teething problems (although anybody would hope to skip that step), rather they never seemed to take to Sarri himself. Maybe that fate would have occurred no matter the manager, and he ended up being the sacrificial lamb being the first step in trying to move to a more fluid and attacking style. Things don't work for a myriad of reasons, but I don't think Juve management has u-turned from their desire to move on from stereotypically pragmatic football that they have employed over the last decade plus.

    I'm not going to break down every point about this because it honestly doesn't matter, and I'm speaking more big picture.

    I agree that specifically in this game, most of our closest moments of scoring (relatively, as we obviously lacked dangerous shots on target or other clear chances that we just fluffed). However, that doesn't mean we should have just pumped in loads more crosses. If our gameplan was to lump in crosses, it's just as likely they would have been less effective, as it would have been less surprising. It's entirely plausible our crosses were "effective" because it offered an alternative to trying to play through, and the variety was helpful. In fact, unless were talking very special teams throughout history, of course the variety is helpful, as its always more difficult to defend against various methods of attacks than just one.

    However, I will reiterate that we've seen our team put in many crosses over the years. It's not pretty and our attackers are not strong in the air.

    I don't think tactical approach had much to do with this game, if I'm being honest. This game came down to the fact that not one Roma player would get in to Juve's starting lineup. That's the long and short of it. We can lump crosses in, maybe win a scramble here and there, and concede possession and get absolutely sliced apart and lose 4-1. We can control the overall tempo of the game and never truly threaten and get hit one or or two counters, as we witnessed.

    Overall, Roma has an above average starting lineup with no top level players. That's just the reality of the situation. Villar has the chance to become world class and Zaniolo was on his way before the injuries. I'll entertain that Ibanez has the potential as well. However, other than that, nobody else has that level, but are nice players.

    We didn't lose this game because of tactics or too few crosses. We lost because Juve is just levels more talented, didn't shoot themselves in the foot and we didn't get any breaks in our favor. It's not an exciting conclusion, but it is what it is.

    In regards to Cristante, I've always been more supportive of him in his time here than most and I think he's gotten a raw deal. He has never been given a consistent role anywhere near approaching his from Atalanta. All things considered, I think he's been a really solid member of the squad filling in wherever we've had deficiencies due to injuries and/or lack of quality, and he's been a wholly undeserving scapegoat. Instead of shitting on Cristante, we should be questioning why we paid the max for a guy and then not just play him slightly out of position, but one of his most common positions for us is CB. Shitting on Cristante for defensive mistakes when he's DM or CB is entirely misdirected.

    I've been harping on it for a while, but I would like to see a return to 3 midfielders. I would also like to see Diawara get more playing time, but that ship seems to have sailed.
     
  22. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    #97 La Magica, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    A fair post, we just disagree on a few fundamentals. I agree that our crossing isnt pretty for the most part but it doesnt really matter in the context of what Im suggesting. It gives us a better chance to play for a "shit draw". I dont care if it would be ugly, an ugly point here would be huge come end of season. It really doesnt matter if it becomes predictable as I dont think Juve particularly like dealing with crosses and I dont think given they are a work in progress we would be ripped apart by putting in more crosses and conceding some possession quicker. The outcome suggested that Roma would be shredded by giving up some keep ball is imo lazy conclusion to make. The fact they are not superstars means tactical details make all the difference to pushing more out of them as a group. Not over exposing the players and asking them to take on too much individual responsibility against superior players seems pretty logical to me. So tactics are crucial and they can make all the difference in such games with a slice of luck etc added in. In football thats reality and how weaker teams compete and scalp big sides. Be smart..

    Again, Im not suggesting anything is full proof as nothing is in football but it gives us a better chance than what we seen.

    Juve are not a well oiled side at this moment regards getting the ball up the pitch. Not giving them those easy counters means they potentially push more when they do have the ball but that could also play into Romas hands as one thing Fonseca has done well is make this team play direct counters the second it looks like its on. I think you guys downplay this team. The starting 11 is good and most importantly is a good team as an unit overall. Fonseca has done well to a point but he misses the finer details to push this team to its max. Better players will still have many games they need pushed on. He isnt that guy.
     
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  23. Villar14

    Villar14 Red Card

    Dec 15, 2020
  24. LordNelson

    LordNelson Member+

    May 29, 2012
    London
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Sorry. Cristante is not playing because he is shit. Simple as. Atlanta knew this and screwd us over. Credit to them.

    Only Pallotta cultists and Mongo loyalists believe this flop has any future.
     

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