Matt Turner at Nottingham Forest

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by ChuckMe92, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    If only someone on BS had noticed this earlier...

    Also, the claim that Turner has had "consecutively poor" displays is not really correct. The one really perplexing thing about Matt is he will put up games like Brazil or the ManU cup, but "sully" the really good performances with a, perhaps not "bad" goal, but won't quite do enough to eek out the win, and intersperse them with pretty ugly-looking outings. I got no idea what the answer is, but Turner puts together enough good games at a high level to suggest he can do it, but not consistently enough to really believe it.
     
  2. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    His poorly hit clearance leading to Brazil’s goal was not perplexing. If Turner is pressured and doesn’t have a comfortable run up to the ball, look out. These instances create doubt for him and teammates.
     
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  3. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    We're ultimately quibbling over the meaning of "perplexing" I guess, but the weird thing v Brazil is he was not really pressured (which was an odd choice by Brazil) but simply overhit his "set up" touch and therefore had to hurry the kick. He usually hits that ball well (with better accuracy than many keepers) 90% of the time, but he should be able to do it 99.9% of the time. That's what makes it seem to me (and I think most observers) that it's a head issue. If you watch the play Turner takes a touch on the ball at 6 while both Brazil attackers are hardly inside the 18 and only 1 is pressing at all - and not that hard. Turner takes a long touch, has to hurry to get to it, seems to slip a bit and isn't able to get through the ball and get his usual distance. Wes doesn't do him any favors, but still, Turner sends that ball near the 50 the vast majority of times... He just turns a simple play into one that's too dangerous for no obvious reason, save he's in his own head.
     
  4. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2204 ChrisSSBB, Jun 18, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2024
    Turner creates his own pressure as he needs more room than most goalies to launch a ball. Steffen from a standstill and the ball barely in front of him could have easily found Pulisic on the touchline (alas, everything else became a problem for Steffen) instead of a weak 25 yd giveaway. The temperatures in this tournament should keep pressing to a minimum so hopefully Turner will relax.

    edit: apologies for getting a bit much into NT stuff in YA forum.. One could substitute “most high level keepers” for Steffen in above.
     
  5. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Your analysis didn’t include total errors, errors leading to goals, shots or turnovers which can have a high degree of importance. But that’s the extent of what I’m personally going to rehash.
     
  6. Gorky

    Gorky Member+

    Jul 28, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I CANNOT believe these guys went out and got another keeper.
     
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  7. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Except, of course, if they don't lead to more overall GA or less overall points for the team, they are not consequential. It is telling that you have to get pretty far into the weeds to find stats that make Turner look worse than Sels. I think at the end of the day the reality is pretty clear - Turner has his issues, Sels has his issues, both are ok at some stuff, not so good at other, but neither is good - nor bad - enough to make a significant relative difference in NF - at least last season. There's always next year.
     
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  8. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I mean, there is no question Turner is poor - and nervy - with the ball at his feet under pressure. What's particularly galling about the Brazil play is Turner created his own pressure with the heavy touch. Brazil was not even pressing. But it's all different sides of the same coin - Turner is not the keeper you want to rely on if you're intent on playing any kind of sweeper-keeper system. And that's a pretty big ding for a top level keeper to try to outplay.
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Recall again Turner didn't start playing keeper til he was like 15 or 16 right. He was undrafted to MLS if I'm not mistaken. He will find his way, I have no doubt but I just wish it would be in the Premier League.
     
  10. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    I mean, I'm old enough to remember that it was once revolutionary to think that defenders should have comfort with the ball at their feet. That the game has evolved further to demand the same out of 'keepers should not be a surprise to anyone.

    Nowadays, a team that has a GK who is allergic to the ball at their feet is forced to "play a man down" in possession/in the build-up. And it isn't even just the "keeper-sweeper" types that need to be able to receive and dispose of the ball comfortably from the feet. It is a normal and accepted part of a gk's job description nowadays.

    IOW, it ain't 1995 any more.
     
  11. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    On the one hand, it is admirable that Turner has made himself the GK he is, despite his late start in the game. OTOH, his late start may have deprived him of the development time to reach a level he might have otherwise reached, had he started playing at a younger age.

    I think he'll therefore find his level, but I doubt it is in the EPL, in part due to his relative inexperience. I think he's an MLS/colaship-level player, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    For the USMNT, given that Turner will now be on his 3rd team in 3 seasons, I think it behooves them to look at additional options at the position. That is, as a hedge against underperformance/loss of playing time/loss of confidence by Turner.
     
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  12. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I would be interested in some kind of analysis that tried to determine if lower-table teams that play the ball to their keeper more often, and/or expect keepers to be involved in possession, do better or worse than other teams - my guess is they would do worse, but that reality would not change the fact that any team/coach with "aspirations" these days is going to look for a keeper who is comfortable with the ball on their feet - and Turner is not that. It is, I think, the key thing that keeps him from cementing a starting role at a high-ish level. What level will be ok with a guy who is otherwise up to par but who you are reluctant to include in possession is above my pay grade. Will be interesting to see if Turner finds that slot in the next few years.

    Also: https://prosoccerwire.usatoday.com/2024/06/17/turner-transfer-nottingham-forest-carlos-miguel/

    "multiple clubs in Europe" interested, according this article that seems to source .... other articles.
     
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  13. zlatan_but_a_car

    Botswana Meat Commission FC
    United States
    Oct 16, 2017
    addictions are weird. Some people get addicted to drugs, others to gambling, and still others to junk food.

    Nottingham Forest are addicted to buying goalkeepers.
     
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  14. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    TBF to NF (not that I have any great inclination tbf to anyone) I think it's pretty clear that neither Sels nor Turner are the keeper that is going to get you up the table without some serious defensive upgrades. I don't believe a better keeper alone will do it, but the Corinthians guy is 25 or so, I think, so at least you can imagine him guiding you for a few years if you stay up and he works out. Sels and even Turner are getting to "those" years.
     
  15. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    It’s a really small sample size and Turner was cratering in confidence. Stats are being misapplied to support a narrative that is unknowable.

    The best thing about his last game was that he seemed to grow in confidence after the early error. Hopefully he can put together a string of excellent performances and find another chance somewhere.
     
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  16. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Again, tho, I think this is an incomplete view. Turner was very good v ManU in the Feb cup game. NF lost - and ManU, for their faults, was clearly the better team, but I recall MT making a reaction save off a header that was really top-level, as well as Turner being able to hold off ManU for 89 minute (ManU had 13 shots, 7 on frame) - but once again, and some this is just bad luck and some of it is self-made, NF couldn't put the ball in the net and eventually slipped up. So I don't think it's "only" down to confidence. He stepped up in the Cup and he stepped up in the Copa after mistakes. It's mostly down to he looks awkward with the ball at his feet and it makes folks nervous - which is a legit response. I think the reality is Turner is who he is. For a National Team he's actually probably more useful as he'll play less games and if you're smart enough not to force him to play the ball with his feet to much, you'll reduce errors/chances. but over the course of 30 or 40 games in a season, the lack of confidence on the ball is going to show much more. And that will keep his top lower than it would otherwise be, I think.
     
  17. zlatan_but_a_car

    Botswana Meat Commission FC
    United States
    Oct 16, 2017
    I mainly agree, but this is now the 3rd summer transfer window in a row that's seen a shakeup at keeper for Forest... some may say that just means they're "bad at scouting" or "spend their money poorly", but I prefer to believe that someone in the Forrest FO just has a crippling addiction to buying as many goalkeepers as possible. I fully expect to see them linked to AT LEAST one keeper this winter.
     
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  18. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Think they technically have 4 on the books atm, and the Brazilian would make it 5... which seems a bit... excessive. A keeper addiction is more fun than simply being too poor to buy the kind of player they want and hoping the guys on the marked down rack will fit just as well as the custom tailored suits.
     
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  19. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    They're going to try to unload three keepers, one will go early, one late, and one will be stuck there with a bunch of DNPs.

    Let's hope Matt is not that last guy.
     
  20. Roblar

    Roblar Member+

    Sep 15, 2000
    The 73072
    And I'd add my speculation that, if instead of buying 4 keepers, they put their money into 2 defenders (and / or a defensive midfielder), the keepers that they, umm, kept would start to look like better players.
     
  21. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    This is a pretty well run-on sentence. That's 86 words, by my count. I do wonder if that was gramatically correct.

    That said, yes: GK need to be comfortable with the ball at their feet.


    Yeah, The Sun is generally unadulterated bullshyte. Actually, approximately 90% of UK football coverage is unadulterated bullshyte. Brit football coverage doesn't TELL you stories, they SELL you stories. [Which is why most of these "transfer rumours" turn out to be untrue, and why most Brit teams/players are horribly overrated.]

    The fact that USAtoday used [snicker] The Sun as a [snicker] "source" is disappoointing.


    I just hope he can somehow land somewhere. I also hope he is prepared for the inevitable salary cut he will have to endure, in order to continue a viable career in the game, wherever it may land him.
     
  22. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Really depends on your feelings regarding the em dash (or, my bastardized single dash, which seems to be more efficient.) If you want you can replace the first dashy-thingy with a period and the second with a comma (or the - and with a semi-colon to be super cool). Then you'd just have two (or 3) fairly rambly sentences. But I think the content is vaguely clear either way, give or take.
     
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  23. Gorky

    Gorky Member+

    Jul 28, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your logic is correct, but to quote ol’ Dubya, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice,…, won’t get fooled again.”
     
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  24. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    And his age, which ties in with his salary. He turns 30 in a few days, which is another way of saying that his next move is likely to be his last major deal. He's on £2 million a year at the moment, with another 3 seasons left on his contract and he never earned more than $500k ($76k in 2019, $200k in 2020, $375 in 2021, etc.) in MLS.

    Assuming he gets 50% of that in the Championship - a good GK's salary there - he'll drop from £1 million a season after tax & agent's fees to £500k just as his peak earning years start. Football is a short career to begin with and he's got 6-7 years to retirement.

    Walking away from £1.5 million is a lot to ask. I wouldn't be surprised to see him tough it out next season and see how things break - Vlach leaves, the new guy is another bust, Sels loses form.
     
  25. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    With how he's played since moving to Europe, I think going to Forest already was his last major move.

    Like you said, he's making good money now - moving just about anywhere would mean a huge paycut. Unless he gets Burki-level money in MLS, I doubt he'd accept a permanent move at this point.
     

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