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Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Sep 30, 2020.
You CANNOT be serious.
Edit: Interesting question. Tough to evaluate. I like Steffen, and I think he's in the driver's seat. If he stays healthy, the number one spot is his to lose.
I also think Steffen has an big edge in potential career advancement. He's already made the difficult jump across the pond, and he's well-placed now, even if the Man City gig doesn't ultimately work in his favor.
This thread will be more about Doyle than Turner, which is too bad.
Doyle is an excellent shit-stirrer because he uses some very true things and just tosses some gasoline on top of it.
Turner is a fantastic shot stopper. Using ASA's methodology, which is good but not perfect, his last year was the best per minute shot stopping season in MLS since 2012 at least.
His 2020 is Top 5. His 2018 is in the Top 30, I believe. There's a lot of good keepers in there -- Tim Melia, the first year Tim Howard and Guzan were back, mid-2010s Bill Hamid. But there's a also some pretty random years in there.
So it's actually pretty impressive that Turner has 3 years in a row. In fact, if you go career, and go by 5,000 minutes, the list reads clearer:
Turner, by a country mile -.30 G/96 minutes versus expected goals
Donovan Ricketts, -.10
Tyler Deric, -.09
Stefan Frei, -.09
Steve Clark, -.08
Sean Johnson, -.06
Luis Robles, -.06
Steffen is actually at +.03. Then again, Andre Blake is at +.05, so take it FWIW.
It's not definitive, by any means. The metric is not an end-all, be-all, although the eye test says he's a great shot stopper even if I don't think Steffen is necessary poor (though I don't think he is great, either).
Shot stopper is not all defense; it doesn't include clearing crosses and so on. And it doesn't include distribution.
But it's definitely an interesting conversation.
Kind of a mute point. Not sure we have too many #1's at any position. It's not like Steffan has been lights out for the USMNT.
Yeah, I've been tracking this topic and then I remembered the same arguments against Steffen back in 2018 MLS GK of the Year voting. Steffen won because of the player vote but the media vote was for Frei.
Mostly the same argument, Steffen is just average at shot stopping. However, Doyle notes that Steffen is superior in commanding his area and Matt is weak there. Also, Steffen is obviously better with the ball at his feet. I'm also pretty sure that Steffen is a better sweeper keeper than Turner although I didn't find any stats for tackles.
Here is the kicker though. It's not that Steffen doesn't have the physical tools to be a great shot stopper because, as Doyle notes also, he is a superior penalty stopper. So the reflexes are there and it may come down to an adjustment of technique. However let me also add that as a defender I know that a narrow stance is superior to wide stance when playing as a defender. GKs are the opposite. A sweeper keeper has to switch between both.
All said, Steffen has the superior ceiling. It's much easier for him to correct his stance than it is for Turner to learn how to speak up and learn to play with his feet. I have no doubt about that.
My one final stab against the media. They are glorifying putting out fires over preventing fires. Organizing your defense and contributing to the possession are skills that prevent shots. It's now 28 years since the backpass rule was created and we can't pretend that goalkeepers can get away without good foot skills.
Sounds like the same argument I heard the last year or so with Cannon. He should be a starter for the Nat Team, and when he's purchased by an EPL team and starting (there is interest), it won't automatically make him a better player!!!
I think this is an interesting one. Shot stopping is important, but I think it can also sometimes mask poor positioning and lack of cutting off balls before shots develop. The guys who make the most saves and not the best goalies. It's far from the be all end all of evaluating the position, and that's before even talking about distribution, which is really what a goalie spends more time doing than the generally small number shots in a typical game that actually require a difficult save.
I'm starting to feel a bit better about Steffan now that he has gotten a couple games already this year. My fear has been that Man City just play Ederson all the time while Steffan rots since you can ride one goalie pretty much all year without worrying about fatigue so much, although it can be a but much mentally. But, if Steffan keeps getting games and stays sharp, I think the spot is his. Turner would need to show against better competition, either by transferring or getting a good number of national team games to really get into the conversation. Before Horvath vanished from the field of play, he looked like a solid challenger. Turner may get there like Doyle predicts, but it is a prediction for the future, not a look at the current situation.
My take away from this topic is that it's criminal that Frei has not featured for the US. The man has been to three MLS Cups and won 2 (including a PK shootout) and has stats to back it up.
If Argentina can have Manchester United's long-time backup as their starting goalkeeper, it's no problem at all in my mind that the USMNT can have Manchester City's backup as our goalkeeper.
The one and only reason that I would have pause regarding starting Steffen is that our center backs, as we have discussed a great deal on this board, are not of great quality. Shot stopping is probably at more of a premium because of that. However, the rest of what it means to be a goalkeeper leans toward Steffen.
I do think Turner can be a more than capable backup. When we talk about the third goalkeeper, despite his issues this season I'd probably still go with Guzan because of his locker-room presence. Honestly, how often do we really expect the third goalkeeper to play? I'm more comfortable with Guzan on the roster than I would be with a certain long-time midfielder who still seems to not only find his way onto the 23-man roster, but into discussions about meaningful playing time . . .
did any manager ever discuss him or why he wasn't called up?
Became US eligible in 2017. Arena gave him a call-up back then, but he got injured.
This happens quite often. A player has "his time" when he's really shone in club soccer and its time to move into the USMNT frame. BUt then an inopportune injury or something gets in the way. The moment seems to pass and its hard to get back in.
Chad Marshall was arguably one of the top 3 or 4 CBs in MLS history (Eddie Pope and then the rest in my opinion). Every time it looked like he was ready to grab hold of a more permanent USMNT position...............something got in the way. He was one of the best, if not the best, domestic centerback in MLS for the better part of 15 years! 12 caps, none in an "important" competition. I think from 2010 (after being left of the WC2010 roster by Bradley) thru 2017 (when Arena called him up) he had zero caps. Unfathomable really. But I think its because during his prime, he kept getting these injuries that kept him out when he was on the verge of an important role. For one call-up opportunity, I think he had his wedding scheduled. And then it was time for USMNT coaches to look at younger options. It just never happened.....................
Frei became eligible late, and then the moment passed. We passed the baton to Steffen and Horvath.
I doubt he would have stayed if he wasn’t assured that he’d have the 2 domestic cups and maybe mop duty in a UCL group game once the group is secured.
I think this year still being condensed will actually greatly aid him in getting PT. He absolutely needs to and I’m sure is planning to leave next year for PT.
I get it tho, it would be hard to pass up working with Pep for a year.
Yeah, with all of the competitions that Man City play..............he's going to get plenty of games.
Can he unseat Ederson? Hmmm. Maybe not. So if he plays really well in his opportunities, other clubs will take note.
But you never know. Those of us who were around at the time were stunned that Tim Howard was installed as the starter as quickly as he was at ManU. And then........easy come, easy go. They replaced him.
Even if Turner has the potential to be better, he needs to play in a respectable European league before he can be the #1 USMNT goalkeeper. European experience is more important at GK than anywhere else.
For Turner to transfer, win a starting job, and get at least a year of starting in before December 2022 ..... is a lot to ask. Especially if he has to start in Belgium at Charleroi or something like that.
Sean Johnson is Berhalter's #2 and he has not played in Europe.
Odd as why not Hamid, he performs far better in recent years
speaking of repeating history, everton could sure use a keeper...
is Pickford that poor this season?
this and last. hes the british kepa (meaning he will never be benched).
MLS.com is ridiculous.
Matt Doyle is ridiculous.
You make great points about Matt Turner vs Zack Steffen.
There is no Matt Turner vs Zack Steffen.
Matt Doyle is clearly not the only person to suggest that Matt Turner should get a call based on his play over recent years. Your only evidence that there should be no comparison of the two players is "Matt Doyle and MLS are ridiculous".
With Horvath continuing to rot on the bench, the other best keeper options for the NT are all playing in MLS. I'm interested in hearing discussion about the relative strengths and weaknesses of our top options, of which Matt Turner seems to be one.