Obama and Trump are both "motherf***ers"?!? If you think there is anything, anything at all, in the personality, character, life or record (presidential or otherwise) of Obama that lets him be described in the same term as Trump, let alone that one, then you need professional help. If the Sky Fairy existed, I'd say that spiritual help wouldn't do you any harm either.
Are you an actual slave in, say, the likes of a modern human trafficking ring or the antebellum South? Are you a girl in a 1950s Ireland Magdalene Laundry with her brother one of the "industrial schools"? Are you a Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto? Didn't think so. Which means that, yes, you do have freedoms. Not as much as you want or as many as you want, certainly, but you have the freedom to gain freedoms. Use it.
Expanding on this and some earlier posts.... This is the closest thing America has probably ever gotten to being in a war time rationing situation since WWII. It's just a different type of "rationing". Instead of not having butter/meat/tires/luxury goods we are losing events, gathering, the ability to meet with friends, gym, etc. I'm not saying that this is harder or will be harder it's just different. But we haven't had to do that as a society since WWII. Not when we were in Korea or Vietnam or the first Gulf Storm. Nor for the last two decades of continuous warfare... I think people should really appreciate Pax Americana lasting for nearly 75 years for our domestic society. Coronavirus hasn't structurally damaged anything in our institutions. If anything, it has exposed which institutions are failing or succeeding in different ways to a larger swath of people (our media, various state governments, the federal government, and our economic system). So yeah suck it up, but pay attention and hopefully some good could come out of this whole mess... Edit: Mods I know the past couple pages are OT. Sorry I try to always be on topic, but this is one of the few corners of the internet where people have seemingly understood from day one what we are facing and I'm enjoying the discourse.
“New York City alone now makes up 42% of total U.S. confirmed cases... Far more young people than they expected are falling very ill... 56% of confirmed cases of coronavirus in the city at the time involved patients under the age of 50.” https://t.co/O6kJat9fkx— Noah Rothman (@NoahCRothman) March 21, 2020
BTW, until March 1st there were already 194 different strains of SARS-CoV-2¹, varying up to 1% in genome length (that is a lot, 300 bases for this 30k bases long virus). In other words: it changes like crazy, because that's what coronaviruses do², so don't be surprised if young people start dropping dead too. The strains from Italy seem to be a lot deadlier than the original ones from Wuhan. Now the question is, how much of that variation is happening on the Gene S (surface glycoprotein). If that changes a lot, there's little hope for any antiviral being broadly effective against it, so we'll have to throw everything and the kitchen sink³. On the other hand, a vaccine, even if not completely effective, could give us the time needed to stop the spreading of it. With the weather changing, I remain fairly optimistic. But it's not unlikely we'll see the number of casualties top above 50k worldwide. --- ¹ https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.05580 ² http://virological.org/t/phylodynamic-analysis-176-genomes-6-mar-2020/356 ³ https://www.jci.org/articles/view/138003
As USMNT team fans, we were primed to recognize the catastrophic incompetence of American governing bodies ahead of the general population.
Interesting you bring up climate change. I was thinking it’s quite ironic that the boomers are freaking out about millennials on a beach disregarding their (the boomers) safety by potentially spreading this virus. At the same time those same boomers have basically killed any chance of politically doing anything about climate change by voting Biden into the democratic nominee which in turn is complete disregard for the future/safety of millennials.
Just to re-iterate 56% of NYC patients are <50... In SK 30% of those that tested positive were 20-29. There is evidence suggesting the virus is more dangerous for those who smoke or vape... dope or cigs. The 37 year old male who died in Pasadena had the "underlying condition" of childhood asthma... So all you keyboard warrior out there thinking this is just gonna off granny might want to take your hand washing a bit more seriously...
I think you're wrong on both of your points. First, Boomers (along with other demographics) aren't only interested in their own self-preservation, but limiting the spread of the disease throughout the general population. There are a lot of folks in the hospitals already, who don't have Covid-19, including mothers giving birth, and cancer patients, among others. Secondly, if you think that Biden (assuming he is the Democratic nominee, and wins) will neglect, or even completely ignore the environment/global warming, you just don't know what you're talking about.
@Eighteen Alpha , I really thought it would be self serving to rep all your posts that elucidated my position so well. I also thought the point you made about being surprised at @freisland was spot on. Freis I am known to sometimes go off on folks when they piss me off, but I decided to dampen my ire because you are a good member of this community and I enjoy most of your input. I value it even when I disagree with you. I also look at you and your other dutch buddy as the all knowing football oracles of all things Dutch. even if I recognize you have a strong pro Dutch bias, but I am cool with that. I will try again and explain my point about not being mad at the kids on the beach. They are living their life and I don't have to interact with them for the next couple of weeks, if I am concerned they might have become infected. I teach 147 middle school students and it never occurred to me to blame one of them when I catch on of their bugs. I chalk it up as an occupational hazard of working in close proximity to that many germ factories. How long do you think we can stay on virtual lockdown before the damage to our economy becomes irreparable. How much debt can the govt run up dropping helicopter money out of the sky and how much time will it buy? Using Rawls veil of ignorance as was invoked above, i don't have a problem with what the government has done to date, i just don't have a problem with people who choose to ignore the governments advice. if the beginning and the end of it is that these people receive public condemnation and social censure then I can live that. That isn't usually how these types of things end, they usually end with govt taking up arms against its citizens and forcing compliance. /i am this guy. “The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche “That which does not kill us makes us stronger.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
I will just leave it at I think you are present a false dichotomy. No one loses their "freedom" because they voluntarily self-isolate, because the respect health directives, because the actively try to protect their fellow citizens. I think you are taking an unreasonable position you don't even really believe because of your particular dogma. My "dogma" is that dogma kills. Life is practical. Dogma is intellectual, rigid and often not helpful in the real world. No "freedom" is lost when it is voluntarily, temporarily exchanged for the greater good. Not acknowledging that this particular virus, since it can easily passed by asymptomatic people, since we have no immunity and since it is already overwhelming hospitals in Italy, New York, Washington, and soon will be overwhelming others, is a unique event, like earthquake or hurricane, that requires community cooperation seems, to me, dishonest or intentionally naive. BTW, I am not Dutch. My wife is. Her father escaped the Nazis in Friesland because a brave farmer hid the 7 year old after he rode the train from Apeldoorn to Heereveen, alone, with fake papers. I have (through her) lots of kind Dutch relatives (many who have died in recent years, sadly) who have translated and sent me Dutch football stories and accompanied me to games when I've been over there with them. Perhaps due to my wife's family's experience in the Netherlands during the Nazi invasion and occupation, and seeing the community members that cooperated with each other, and those that looked out for themselves, selling out resistance and corroborator to the Germans, has colored my outlook somewhat. My father-in-law was a child-soldier in a small resistance cell. Saw collaborators killed and hated those that looked after themselves at the expense of the community. I believe often "freedom" is used for "irresponsibility" and "selfishness" as much as "responsible individualism...." or "iconoclastic outsider seeking exceptionalism..." The myth of exceptionalism, among all us normal dudes, is often just a Marlboro commercial parody of philosophy. Martinus Harsma of Joure Netherlands was an exceptional individual - and a simple farmer. Because he looked out for, and even sacrificed for, the community and family. Not because he partied on the beach. (BTW, the economic argument is a different argument, and involves some grasshopper and ant analysis, but that's for another day of voluntary quarantine....)
Washington now prepping in case they need Italy-style triage. Freedom absent society is anarchy. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ox_tw_m&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1584760065
I predict we take 3rd tomorrow, Sunday at the latest. Italy may be hard to catch. Would most prefer the tables freeze where they are, but I don't see that happening.
You seem to know the science pretty well, but couldn't demographics and lifestyle be an alternative explanation for Italy's more deadly outcomes? To begin with, Italy has had an extremely low birthrate over the last few decades, resulting in the at-risk elderly/late middle-aged making up a much higher % of its overall population. Additionally, until relatively recently Italians, especially men, were quite heavy smokers at some stage in their lives, which doesn't do anything for your lungs in later life (it's been a factor in the much higher % of males among the infected in China, as Chinese men smoke far more than women). On top of that, Italian family home dynamics have very high numbers of adult children living with their parents into their 30s and even 40s. Since they are quite mobile, they have high levels of contact with the infected and catch the virus which, even if they don't get ill, they pass on to one or both parents when they come home. Per CNN, new figures from the Italian ministry of health suggest that these factors are pretty significant. The average age of the dead is 80 and they have at least one preexisting condition. The average age of the infected is 65, compared with 46 in China.
This 1804 oil painting by Antoine-Jean Gros depicts Napoleon Bonaparte visiting plague victims quarantined in Jaffa during the Egyptian Campaign.
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/pandemics-quarantines-and-history "I’ve been interested in quarantine for a long time. At the end of college, as I was working on a paper about European travelers in Egypt in the 19th century, I came across a guidebook from the 1840s, the first British guide for travelers to Egypt. Almost the whole introduction was about dealing with quarantine on the return trip. A central rationale for this system was the occasional presence of bubonic plague epidemics in Middle Eastern cities, but even when there were no reports of any disease, every person traveling from the Middle East to Western Europe needed to be quarantined, usually for at least three weeks. I found this amazing, and I still do. The quarantine system ensnared millions of people over its existence, roughly from the mid-eighteenth century to the 1850s. These people had to have their clothes fumigated, had to hand over every piece of mail to be dipped in vinegar and smoked. Sometimes, you can still smell that on early nineteenth-century letters. It was just really interesting that in this early period, an international medical system existed on this scale. This continental border was so real and tangible and intense at a time when we are not expecting to find such a transnational system. And this system was built from the ground up by low-level bureaucrats in Mediterranean port cities. Through the regular exchange of letters among local boards of health, mutually assured disinfection emerged. That is, boards of health made it known to other boards: If your procedures aren’t up to snuff, ships from your port will be quarantined elsewhere in Europe. As I’ve researched my book, it’s been so fascinating to see how this shared, continental transnational border took shape.
HERE is a news article describing one way people who sew can help local hospitals cope with the shortage of proper masks. Read and contact your local hospital to learn if they are interested. The effort is based on a Journal of the American Medical Association article published in September showing that regular surgical masks offer nearly the same protection against season (viral) flu as the N95 respirators which are in short supply.
Do people who believe in “freedom” believe in mandatory vaccination? Is that a curtailment of one’s freedom?
This is simply not true. History is full of examples of where people voluntarily surrendered freedoms that were never returned. As to your anecdotal Dutch holocaust experience. You do realize that the Dutch were the only people who had a significant amount of "voluntary" rescuers in all of Europe. Almost every account from an actual rescuer indicates it was something that happened quite by accident for the most part, and was not an intentional decision to stop the evil.Almost nobody woke up and thought this s is wrong, today is the day I do something about it and help one of those Jews, Catholics, or persons with disabilities. Additionally and perhaps most remarkable when the Dutch POWs returned home they found that almost all of them still had a home that had been looked after by their neighbors. Looked after so well in fact, that many even had fresh cut flowers on their kitchen table when they returned home. In all of Europe this was the only place such acts were known to have happened. So you see why I say your Dutch experience clouds your judgement as to the decency of the common person. I find it a bit offensive however that you would explain to a veteran about societal responsibility. My service indicates I get that concept. I am a teacher now, so in a sense I am still serving my community. I actually told all my classes before school let out to give it a couple of weeks before they went to see their grandparents, as this illness has shown to be especially dangerous to them. The latest info at the time said you could be asymptomatic for up to two weeks and still be a carrier. This whole debate started because there was so much condemnation about the spring breakers and I didn't have a problem with it, and thought the panic was unwarranted. You guys act as if they are some kind of horrible people for doing this when the reality is the risk is no greater to them than an especially nasty flu bug. To the at risk group the numbers are significantly worse, but for those kids it isn't nearly as threatening. Even if this thing takes root and infects the entire country it isn't the fault of those kids, it was here before they took spring break whether it was public knowledge at the time or not. Recall this thing has a long incubation period where a person is contagious. I am not in favor of some version of forced compliance with the directive to shelter in place. That is good advice for all of us, but I believe each individual should be allowed to make the choice for themselves. Until it was closed I still frequented my usual watering hole and simply allowed a bit more distance between me and my mates. FTR I am in the high risk group as a 58 yr old smoker. As I stated earlier, I have no problem with what the govt has suggested as long as it stays a suggestion, nor do I have a problem with the spring breakers. I understand there are limits to freedoms (can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, etc.) I just do not feel that being on the beach in the middle of what has turned out to be a "pandemic" rises to that level. I do understand you are saying that without respect to the fact they may catch Covid19 and die because of their actions, they might contract the disease and become carriers. You do realize that it is still up to me, whether to interact with them or not, and to what degree of proximity I do that. That is my choice, not theirs. Their exercise of freedom will only affect me if I allow one of those carriers into my space. Who enters my space is my choice, unless I am in a grocery store full of panicked shoppers jockeying for the latest shipment of toilet paper and hand sanitizer. The world will never be the same again. There is going to be a pretty bad scar and millions are likely to die. That was fait acompli the moment the virus mutated. Those kids on the beach changed none of that. People just feel better demonizing somebody or something. Just about the time we think we (mankind) are in control, Natural Selection rears its head and says, "not so fast". I hope all of you are safe and secure with plenty of toilet paper.