Treeitaliano wants to suspend me indefinitely, but at least I know how to use the Kicker search engine to find gems like this. I earned my keep today....ok Tree, surprise me Look at final sentences (basically 1860 is 'negotiating/thinking' about Clint)..from a November 11th article http://www.kicker.de/content/news/a...a=1&saison=2004/05&spieltag=14&keyword=mathis
Well, not familar with current cadre (yes, a few names do stick out), however, what IS interesting is that 1860 has the potential to be a pretty big club if they get back to BL1. First of all, they would then play in the new Allianz area- which is going to be beautiful, and one could easily see them average 35-40k the first couple years (including soldout BM darbies). Secondly, being in Munich (although the older club...but still 2nd fiddle) they always have the potential to draw big crowds if they are a top team...unlike the minnows (like Cottbus a few years ago, or Mainz now- limited by seat capacity) and limited by their town size, history. For better or worse, the ability to draw more fans means REVENUE and the ability to buy top players. It ain't everything (Mainz shows that), but all things being equal, its better to have ability to buy then not I reckon.... I think in the new Allianz arena, 1860 would have a decent shot of staying up a few years...if they get so far... I think Clint can still get a BL1 deal here....but 1860 would not be a bad choice (if he chooses BL2). I think they'll be in the hunt for a promotion spot by year end...
Nice info on the new stadium and all... but I'm curious. You start by saying you're not familiar with their current team, then end by saying you think they'll be in the hunt for a promotion spot by years end. Why? How do you come to that conclusion if you don't follow them? I know nothing of them either, but their table position. They currnetly lie 6th on 19 points (along with 2 other teams). Right now they are closer to last place (12 points) than they are to 3rd place (27 points). The teams from 14 to 5 are separated by a mere 3 points. Now that's parity. Just curious as to why you think they'll be in the hunt for promotion.
(1) They were in BL1 last year. They have kept quite a few of those players (unlike smaller clubs, they did not need to sell off all the stars- a la a St. Pauli- of course, they did lose some). So, talent-wise I have a difficult time believing that they AREN'T among the most talented in BL2 (2) Incentive. That beautiful new stadium is waiting for them if they can get back. (3) I could be wrong, but when 'big' clubs (clubs that have spent a good amount of time in BL1) get demoted...it seems they usually are promoted/near promoted the following year. After that first 'shock' year, if they don't get back...then sometimes harder (wage pressures, and emotional momentum to 'get back quick' is gone (4) Team is committed to buy players in the break. They are willing to look at a (basically) BL1 skill level player in Mathis with a big wage bill..and probably others that could play in BL1. Not many BL2 teams can buy even one additional players...let alone several w/BL experience and with BL talent (5) They are currently not far off the hunt...One club above them (Guenther Fuerth) is a true minnow, and its hard to be overwhelmed by the history of clubs like Ahlen and Burghausen (around them)... (6) Notice I said "in the hunt". I didn't say they'd necessarily get it. Many of the recent years of BL2, at least one promotion spot is still up for grabs going into last week or 2 of the season, and more than once- 3 or so teams have a shot at that last spot. That's what I meant by 'the hunt'... (7) If they get Clint, I think he'll score a lot of goals
Hm, i actually predicted before the season started that 1860 won't be promoted (look it up on the Germany board ). Their squad doesn't impress me at all. I can't see them finish in front of Fürth at the moment (who i wouldn't call a minnow, considering their huge tradition in German soccer, their decent fan support and finally their on field success in the last few years).
Alex- when was the last time and how long did Fuerth last in BL1? They couldn't have spent much time at all in BL1, and I'm thinking have spent as much time in lower table of BL2 and/or Regionaliga as in BL1. (last 20 years) Also, 1860 has got to have a much bigger tradition then Fuerth (or are you disputing)? I do agree at the end of the day this is all heavy speculation. Soccer is team sport, and the team will get promoted. We'll see...
I thought you don't like Fürth (Playmobilstadion ;-) ) @ Jri: All fürth did was win the championship 3 times when there wasn't even a Bundesliga ;-) and the indoor championship in 2000 They haven't been in 1st BL since at least the 90s as far as I recall... a couple 1000 members in the club and 18 fan clubs.
Please Squig...Almost 50 years ago? That is ancient history, haven't most of those fans died already?....
Clint Mathis + Loewenbrau + Spaten + Hacker Pschorr + Paulaner + Hofbrauhaus + Weihenstephan + Andechs = Betty Ford. But seriously, I thought at the beginning of the year that TSV was a strong candidate for promotion. But the way things have played out this season, it looks to me like the promotion battle is a four-team race for three spots: Fuerth, Cologne, Duisburg and Aachen. That is not to say that two of those teams can't come back to the field (Cologne will be promoted, but the other teams are not locks by any stretch of the imagination), in which case TSV might be a legitimate promotion possibility, but I don't see TSV catching them without that help. BTW, Fuerth, as was noted, was a dominant team way back when, known as SpVgg Fuerth. But they fell on hard times financially and on the field and had a crappy set-up, but IIRC, they had a nice stadium (or at least plans for a nice stadium). At that point, they had never played in the 1.BL, and I don't think they ever did much of anything in the 2.BL (if they were even in the 2.BL). During the 90s (mid-90s, I think), they merged with a local village team called Vestensbergsreuth, which were heavily sponsored by a local company (their shirt sponsor was Milford Tea when they beat Bayern in the German Cup in like '93 or '94, and I assume that was their big financial backing) and had a good team with a good set-up. It was a "win-win" merger and since then, the Greuther Fuerth has been a very solid 2.BL team and have threatened for promotion in recent years. So it would be no surprise to see them promoted. And it certainly would be overstating one's case to call them a minnow. How they compare to TSV in terms of tradition I don't know exactly, but it would not be a one-sided debate.
Good post...good information... However given their lack of BL1 and averaging less then 10k a game (only 6600 at their last home game!), I think they are more minnow then anything else...but we'll see who comes out on top at the end. I'd love to go to a Mainz home game...that would be coooooooooooool.
No offense, jri, but i don't try to analyze MLS either. Fürth has a very good team currently, 1860 haven't. IMHO, of course. Fürth's attendance is decent by second division standards, btw. Nothing to write home about, but mostly in the middle of the league. The SpVgg. Fürth team of the 1920s is one of the most legendary teams in the history of German football. 1860 never had such an impact on German football, but were lucky to have maybe their best team ever when Bundesliga started in the 1960s, otherwise we wouldn't even think about comparing them Fürth. Since 1964 Fürth played 20 years in the second division (Regionalliga and later 2. Bundesliga), btw. I don't think it's neccesary to discuss who has more tradition and currently 1860 is the bigger club. But calling Fürth "a true minnow" is just arrogant (and i HATE that "only Bundesliga counts" mindset). And if Ulm or Unterhaching can play Bundesliga, there is no way that Fürth couldn't. Well, the stadium is crap, but calling them a minnow is definetely too harsh . If they would play in Nürnberg everything would be fine...
Well, I GUARANTEE you my history w/the BL goes back a lot further then yours with MLS! I think you are taking the term 'minnow' too harshly. I mean 'minnow' regarding the resources they have to staff a team that can compete/stay in the BL. 1860 is much largely better equiped to do this (w/the Allianz revenues) vs. someone like Fuerth...even if attendence improves going to BL1. Mainz sells out every game, but they are a minnow because they are/will continue to be budget-limited. You are telling me that Fuerth will compete in getting players against even 1/2 of the current BL clubs? No way. They will have to rely on system, enthusiam, and god know what else---but they aren't going to 'buy' their way to a mid-table ranking (of course, no team ever can...but talent certainly helps) Sure Ulm, Unterhaching hung in the BL for a bit more than a cup of coffee...but c'mon, every year it was like "Is this the year we go down?" (basically). Its unfortunate, but resources do matter. Its not everything...but they matter. I meant no disregard to Fuerth, but they are not a well-resourced club, nor will they be if they make BL1. So I summarily reject your criticism And yes, Fuerth has come close many time (like formerly Mainz) so they are probably due....but I'd be surprised if 1860 doesn't put a scare in them (at least)...1860 will add some good players at the break....let's see, it'll be fun
Well, i don't doubt that (i mean, i never cared that much for MLS ). But you have a strange tendency to discuss teams you have never seen play (didn't we talk about Union's chances for promotion a few weeks ago...), which sometimes annoys me a bit. But i assure you that it's nothing personal. Ok, if you had said that 1860 has better chances to become a long-time Bundesliga club again i would have agreed (although i am not sure if 60's chances are that good either). But that isn't that relevant if we talk about the current season (which i thought we did) imo. Feel free to bump this thread if i was wrong, btw . Maybe 1860 will go up again, maybe they won't. And that's why i like soccer: Köln, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt and a few others were top teams just a decade ago, while Freiburg or Wolfsburg had never played a single BL season.
LOL. I have a difficult time believing you've seen a lot of Fuerth's game...and yet (you discuss more vociferously then me)... I listed my reasons why I think 1860 have a shot, and think they are still valid. and for the record, I doubt I said anything about 1. FC Union Berlin team's performance taht was likely qualified (at least some)...but somehow that didn't make it in your recap Fixed your post
Well, i have to admit that i have only seen them on TV. But i usually follow lower division soccer much closer than the (1.) Bundesliga. But anyway, i actually enjoy your YA threads (as they give me the opportunity to comment on the current state of German lower division soccer ), so i hope you keep them up. Oh, and my appologies about the Union thing, btw. You are indeed correct i think, sorry (i guess i mixed something up).
Mein Freund, es gibt nichts zwischen uns zu beklagen. Entschuldigen fuer mein Deutsch, isch schon 15 Jahre her (gelebt). Viel Glueck beim Aufsteigen (Braunschweig). Kauf mal' ein Beer fuer unser kleiner Baby Landon...
Thanks. But i am very superstitous when it comes to soccer, so i do my best not to think about promotion. I still blame myself for last season . Tell him he can contact me through Bigsoccer, when he has an away game in Wolfsburg or Hannover .
Slightly off topic, but a quote from the Guardian's fiver that I thought explains Mathis' problems in Europe. the quote is not about Mathis, but about van persie, but it applies, IMO: QUOTE OF THE DAY "He was ungrateful, his body-language screamed out 'I don't appreciate this'. I don't like that attitude. I like players to have their own opinions - but start playing at a good standard first, then you get to say controversial things. First you achieve, then you get to talk" - Arsenal brat Robin Van Persie hasn't exactly endeared himself to Dutch manager Marco Van Basten.
Damn, I'm pretty proud of this... Look how I got beat up on this! (see earlier part of thread) Current table (Points at end, games played beginning): 1 1. FC Köln 28 16 7 5 53:29 24 55 2 MSV Duisburg 28 17 4 7 44:25 19 55 3 1860 München 28 13 9 6 42:32 10 48 ___________________________________ 4 Greuther Fürth 29 14 5 10 42:35 7 47 And at the mid-season break: 1 MSV Duisburg 17 11 3 3 25:13 12 36 2 1. FC Köln 17 10 4 3 27:17 10 34 3 Greuther Fürth 17 10 3 4 24:15 9 33 _____________________________________________ 4 Alemannia Aachen 17 9 4 4 38:18 20 31 5 Eintracht Frankfurt 17 7 4 6 32:28 4 25 6 1. FC Saarbrücken 17 7 3 7 24:20 4 24 7 Erzgebirge Aue 17 7 2 8 25:20 5 23 8 1860 München 17 6 5 6 23:26 -3 23
Am I the only one that thinks it's significant that it came from an article dated 5 months ago and we've seen nothing since? They could have had him for nothing a few months ago...