Discussion in 'Group F: Argentina, Bosnia, Iran, Nigeria' started by JohnnyFutbol, Mar 28, 2014.
Congratulations to Argentina and Nigeria for delivering the best match of the tournament so far!
As a Brazil fan, you have some nerve bringing up cheating. Is it possible to witness a more blatant display of cheating than what we saw in the Brazil-Croatia game in favor of Brazil?
Enyeama was just being friendly, like a typical down-to-earth Nigerian. I don't expect someone like you, who probably has all kinds of complexes and neuroses, to see Enyeama's actions as that of a simple, friendly good- natured guy enjoying his time at the WC.
1) Two wrongs don't make a right. I have extensively acknowledged Fred's cheating in many posts, including, right after it happened (I think I was arguably the first poster to condemn it). I don't like it either.
2) Yeah, sure. The wrongly disallowed Bosnian goal was disallowed, and the irregular Nigerian goal was confirmed, because of my complexes and neuroses. Sorry, Sir, I promise I'll try to get some treatment. You know, living in my mother's basement and all, and being fat, short, bald, unemployed and uninsured, it's hard for me to afford a shrink, so, I keep displaying all this huge mental illness and it spills over and makes the ref disallow goals for Bosnia and confirm fake goals for Nigeria. It's all my fault, I'm so sorry!
The ref was also very friendly to Nigeria.
Agreed. Not sure why some make so many excuses and want to dissect this ad nauseum. We had our moments and our chances. But we also make mistakes in the midfield that the world class teams do not. The team performed admirably for their talent the past 8 days and made Iranians proud. No need to hang our heads. We need to build on this and not get in the same ruts. This 3rd time now (I'm not counting pre-inghelaab/revolution of the 78 cup) should be a sustained wake-up call to the federation. This is not the honeymoon of 98. They need to spend the resources needed to get to and stay at the next level. We have amazing athletes in the country. Just need to develop them further.
I feel for Bosnia, so much talent. Bad breaks.
I'll be cheering for Argentina and Nigeria.
I think you've hit one GIANT nerve by saying that! Ouch!
This World Cup actually proved Carlos Queiroz right, even if he kind of played a game of heads I win, tails you lose! But based on what we saw, Iran was clearly not in the same class as the rest of the teams in our group. This is what Queiroz had told us from the beginning, even going into our last match, as he masterfully played the expectations game so that there was practically no result from this World Cup that could be used to lower his standing with Iranian fans. Of course, if we had advanced, Carlos Queiroz would win big. But if we failed, we would lose, not him.
And that is exactly what happened. At the end of the day, Carlos Queiroz did not achieve his "mission impossible". Instead, finding itself in a must win game against Bosnia, Iran ended up losing 3:1. With that loss, the cold hard statistics that will be the only thing that will be recalled about teams like Iran from this World Cup in a few years time, will show us finishing the tournament with 1 measly point at the bottom of our group. For a team like Iran, which had never gone pointless in any World Cup before either, this is no major achievement. In fact, it doesn't even match our best showing in World Cup 1998, when Iran played 3 credible games and ended with 3 points.
To be sure, Iran did show itself in this tournament as a side that could legitimately hold out hope for tactical results. We might have even achieved the "miracle" Queiroz had alluded at times and advanced from this group. We came very close in the Argentina game and already had a point from our game against Nigeria. But those would be tactical results achieved by an inferior team against superior ones. Results that would give more credit to a coach than the team he is coaching. Just like how Queiroz scripted things from the very beginning. Hence, with Carlos Queiroz playing a masterful game of managing expectations, and then bringing us close to the miracle he had talked about in our game against Argentina, this World Cup will not hurt his standing with Iranian fans the way, say, World Cup 2006 ruined the standing of our then coach, Branko Ivankovic. Not at all; in fact, almost the reverse.
It was always a case of heads I win, tails you lose, with Carlos Queiroz. It seems most of our fans are willing to play along. But I am not.
I have to admit I have never given Reza Ghoochannejad his due, although I have always liked him enough. But he is much better than what anyone can gather from his club career. I also admit Pouladi proved me completely wrong. The guy did very well. And Dejagah, after a medicore game against Nigeria, was simply awesome. His work rate, his ability to go all alone isolated against often 3-4 opposing players and still be useful was simply amazing. And everyone of our other players, even those who made a mistake or two, did their job well and in most cases even better than I could have hoped for. I have absolutely no qualms with how any of them did. And I certainly admit that is partly credit to our coach as well. In that sense, Carlos Queiroz did his job very well. But not in the sense of taking the abundant talent that is a bit scattered but is available in Iran and molding a genuinely strong team. I could list literally a dozen players who were ignored by Queiroz because they couldn't fit into his tactics that envisioned Iran parking the bus and looking for a miracle!
As an Iranian, I would like to say I am disheartened by the tone of a few high-frequency posters supposedly representing our team on this forum. I revisited here after a hiatus and recently got a taste of one myself. Bitter to say the least. There are much more gracious Iran fans on some other forums. So, please know they do not represent the majority of us.
Except that *I* wasn't the one who engaged in cheating; so I'm not the one to be blamed for the pot calling the kettle black. You'd have a point if Fred or Rivaldo were posting here. Last time I checked, I have never played for the Brazilian national team.
Besides, all teams have done it at one point; two wrongs don't make a right, so if a team I support has engaged in past cheating, it doesn't mean when I see it done by someone else, I can't call it. I have no rivalry against Nigeria. I'm just calling what I saw. That Bosnia game was not normal. I'm not the only one saying it.
didn't Bosnia make huge tactical changes from their wcq campaign? Unlucky but looks like that backfired.
It's ok mate but the damage is already done! The amount of BS that we saw from SOME of your fellow countrymen in the past 6-7 months were too much to handle! There's a difference between optimism and arrogance! I really hope they would learn some humility after this WC! And finally... welcome back
Yeah pretty much although there's more to it. During qualifiers we usually went with 4-4-2 with both Dzeko and Ibisevic up front(just like today vs Iran). Our group was relatively easy so even though sometimes it was risky against good counter attacking teams, we stuck with it and ended up finishing first. Our coach noticed that in the friendlies against Mexico, USA, Argentina and all the other good teams we weren't winning games and so everyone wanted to have 1 striker to solidify the midfield area more. So he did and got wins vs Mexico and Ivory Coast right before WC started. It also went well against Argentina in our first game as beside the own goal and Messi's brilliance, we played very well and probably should have gotten a tie out of it. Then for a reason not known to anybody other than our manager, he switches things around against Nigeria, playing a few different players(good technical players who are poor in terms of work ethic and running ability) and some of them out of position. It backfired as defensively we looked poor and we couldn't create enough going forward. As the game went on, the slow guys just kept looking even slower and that was it.
You've got two world cups in three cycles. Definitely something to build on. Before that it was two in 20 years, not so good, and that was back when the AFC wasn't subpar, but rather was total and complete horse bleep.
You've got a couple of interesting players who are quite young and should only get better, but there needs to be greater depth, and greater cream at the top. It takes time. Hell the entire US midfield at this world cup is nothing remotely like what was expected 8 years ago. Back then the thought was guys like Adu, Gyau, and Renken would be the young guns with vets like Donovan, and Dempsey and Convey showing them the way. Well, none of those young guns have panned out (Gyau is in wait and see mode), and the vets were all gone other than Dempsey. You need to develop in depth and in the top end so you can survive flame outs like that, and guys that are ruined by injuries (Convey, Renken).
It's a big step forward, and with South Korea in at least mild decline, Australia in decline, and Japan seemingly in neutral, theirs room, and not really any excuse for failing to qualify, so hopefully that will help. The scouting report on you guys seemed to be: well organized defensively, a bit toothless in the attack, a couple of skilled young attacking players who aren't yet ready, and a midfield that lacks creativity and ideas.
That's what it looked like watching it too. You guys played well as a team, but lacked that cutting edge, w/only one or two guys that looked up for the top level of talent you could see in the attack of Bosnia, in Emenike and even Musa, in Argentina etc. Give it time, funding, and proper development and it will just get better.
There's no reason why Iran can't keep moving up the ladder in the coming decades, but it's got to come from the ground up, and it's got to take time, organization, scouting, and proper management of the fed. If all that plays out, we should see you in Russia in '18, and wherever the cup ends up being in '22 to boot.
I thought you guys were outstanding against Argentina. Very few teams in the world can play them heads up and have a legit shot at winning that's reasonable rather than flukish: I'm thinking Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Ghana, Brazil, maybe Colombia and Chile of late, and that's about it. So playing a counter and defend in numbers game was de rigueur, and regardless, you guys had several legit chances, the best chances in the match for the most part, and a justifiable PK claim.
For me anyway, i look at it, depending upon where the level of a side is, as, how well did you play? Not everyone can be amongst the few true elites in the game, and if you're not there, the building blocks to getting there are learning how to play together well, and execute game plans well, and play a great version of that plan. Iran did that to a T against Argentina, and came up just short. That is something to hang your hat on because it was basically Iran 0 Argentina 0 Messi 1, w/a PK denied and only some bad luck keeping 1 or 2 other shots out.
It's a stepping stone to jump from 35th-50th, to 25th-30th, and from there, into contention given time.
Remember, 2 World Cups in the past 3 cycles. Only 1 in the previous 6 before that. The movement is beginning, I expect it to grow given time, especially if the economy can turn around, and things can open up domestically, allowing more investment, and interest in the players abroad etc. Everything works in tandem, and so far, the signs are beginning to point up.
probably four, like last time against Germany. They might have to wait until the semis to really be challenged in that way, though.
I certainly was thrilled with our performance against Argentina. It was as good as I would have liked it even in my dreams, except of course in my dreams Messi wouldn't score that last minute goal but we would have scored either from the penalty that wasn't called or through one of our good chances. Even against Nigeria, while we were boring, we played well and achieved our objective. Iran couldn't have had a better coach than Carlos Queiroz for those 2 games. None. But against Bosnia, in a must win match as that one was, I think we could have done better under many other coaches. Queiroz is just not the right coach against a team that doesn't feel it has to beat us. Bosnia beat us all over the field, but they didn't have to and played with that knowledge. Whenever we didn't press them in midfield, they would just pass the ball around until we had to.
Of course, I don't want to take credit away from Bosnia either. In some ways, they were even better than Argentina. Iran, ranked the 9th tallest team in the tournament, was pitted against the 3rd tallest team in Bosnia. And, frankly, it showed: unlike Argentina, who are a smaller team, the Bosnia strikers physically towered over our defenders and that just reduced our effectiveness in controlling them. At the same time, players like Dzeko aren't just tall; they are also technically very capable and very efficient to boot.
Anyway, while this tournament ends with my respect in Queiroz as a coach increased not diminished, I like our coach to be someone who prefers to build an offensive squad that scares the living day lights out of its opponents in Asia. That is how it was through out much of the period in the late 1990s up to around 2006, even if the results me and you sometimes argued about didn't show it. There is a world of difference between how S.Korea used to play us back then and how they have played us more recently (post 2009) including how they played us under Queiroz.
Incidentally, while your overall point that we have qualified to 2 out of the last 3 World Cups, whereas we had only qualified to 1 other World Cup (Wc98) before then in ages (since Wc78) is valid, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that Iran did not participate (boycotted due to the Iran-Iraq war) the qualifiers for the 1982 and 1986 World Cups. Basically, in recent years, we have been qualifying to every other World Cup. I hope we do better in that regard as well.
I enjoyed your post, thanks
carlos is a horrible coach tbh. he has played shojaie, a slow attacking mid, as right winger. every single time he played that position he sucked and gave turnovers. every time he played his natural attacking mid position he played amazing. guess what he did against bosnia? gave the turnover that lead to our first goal conceded. why did he not put dejagah in his natural right winger position and put shojaie as attacking mid? this would make our midfield more creative. and imagine khalatbari on the left.. Iran DOES have the potential of being creative in midfield and attacking. its just that carlos sabotaged it in his cowardly pursuit for 100% defense. then he takes off shojaie at half time for a right back.. when we are losing 1-0 and need goals to survive lol. i already mentioned his horrible substitutions for nigeria and argentina so i will not mention them again. bottom line is this man is a selfish politician coward psuedocoach. he knows Iranians are nationalistic and emotional so he keeps saying horsecrap like "i will fight for 80 million Iranians." stfu. you are getting paid millions. anyone would do that. its your job buddy. dont take credit for doing your job. unfortunately the majority of Iranian fans fall for his bs. they also commit a logical fallacy: just because our federation sucks and our domestic coaches suck, they automatically praise carlos. this is not logical. if i am crap and i am better than shit, it does not make me diamond... i am still crap. and when he fails he makes excuses and pretends it is not his fault. he insulted Iran and brainwashed our players that they are inferior. he chose crappy Iranian players abroad because he does not believe in the Iranian league. he was proven wrong then because last time i checked pouladi does not play outside of Iran. what kind of coach tells his players and the world that his team is inferior, just to cover his own ass when he loses? prick. he tool all the self-belief out of our players and it showed that we could not put 2 passes together going forward. after we conceded against bosnia we were lost. he did not even practice how to play a balanced game. all he did in 3+ years is say "put 11 behind the ball." he had over 3 years. when he succeeds, it is not him succeeding, it is luck succeeding, then he takes praise for it. i would be glad he is gone if our next coach would not be a crappy domestic coach who is even worse than him, which will 99% be the case lol. no other Iranian coach has gotten so much support of the fans, country, and the federation then failed so big. there is a reason he failed everywhere he went. he ruined real madrid and almost made portugal not go to the 2nd round in 2010 with his crappy defensive football. i bet you 99.99% if an Iranian coach got these exact results using these exact same tactics every Iranian would be calling for his head. unfortunately our people get brainwashed easily because they are emotional. the state of our country proves it. its not just Iranians though the majority of people from around the world are like this, but since Iranians are really emotional they become more vulnerable. we need to listen to rational people like me to advance. but this wont happen as people never listen to rational people. just look at history + the current state of the world lol. yes there is no point of me writing this because it wont change anything. but what else should i do lol.
Thanks for the '82/'86 references, I wasn't aware of that, and although I did post earlier in the year that I imagined World Cups in the eighties would have been difficult because of the war, I wasn't aware that it might be that harmful, it's also worth mentioning that because of the issues in the eighties, getting quality players born during that time period (so basically ready to play at the professional level between 2000-2010, would strike me as quite difficult considering how many died, plus the mass exodus that happened when the shah was bounced (I grew up in a community with quite a few Persian friends and acquaintances that had come to the US in '78-'80 and now you guys actually have one of those kids on your squad, though I think he was a depth guy)).
I think things should get better for you guys, maybe you can import a few more dual nationals, grow the game a bit more, your young guys like Dejagah keep improving, and your fed appears to be weakening a bit. 1-3 squads from your fed had quality tournaments in '02, '06 and '10, this time Japan looked poor, Australia looked like Cahill and work hard guys that might be a bit too young, and South Korea doesn't look like its on the same page or as good as it used to be. I dont think any of the teams in the group would rank in anyone's top 25 for this tournament, whereas in '10 and '02 they definitely would have, and in '06 South Korea got 4 points in a weak group unlike this tournament where they got just the 1, and that was flukey.
I fully expect to see you guys in Russia. Zero excuse to miss Russia, you're better than Bahrain, Uzbekistan, etc, and you should be able to use your home field to get 3 points consistently. A couple of road points and you'd be through.
You'll be better four years ago, but you may not know it in the tournament which is a shame, and honestly, considering the threads in the Group F forum, I'd fear for you guys (and your personal sanity) since their seems to be unbelievable homerism. What might have happened to you guys if you'd landed in a group of death from this tournament? Switch places with Australia, switch places with USA, maybe with Costa Rica. You'd have to fend off the Chupacabra in D, and somehow break through against Italy, and England (admittedly overrated as I predicted), in G, you would have been played off the field, in B, good lord, what a nightmare that would have been. Chile could have really made for a blood bath considering how aggressively they press, and how damn good they are at it (they know how to break through a bus situation, and they are used to playing teams that are highly technical like Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia, so they wouldn't have had trouble with any aspect of your game), then you have Spain as well in the finale, and a Dutch team wanting to get on 6 points on matchday 2.
That's the thing. Qualification should be assured, but you guys landed a group that wasn't hugely frightening. Nigeria was totally erratic, Bosnia was erratic, Argentina was nowhere near as good as fellow CONMEBOL compatriots Chile, and Colombia. Granted it wasn't as bad as E, but after that, it's up for grabs alongside the disappointing C, and H, as one of the weakest four.
Considering the US, like Ivory Coast, like Ghana, like Australia, have landed in groups of death repeatedly in recent tournaments (2 out of 3 for USA, IC, and Australia, 3 out of 3 for poor Ghana, which was probably one of the best 8-10 sides in this cup as I expected, but finished last because of difficulty of the group, misfortune, and problems with the fed), if you get bad luck like we have, or those other three sides, it will be a blood bad for at least another generation (I haven't seen any sign that Iran is producing great kids yet, due to the lack of U-17/U-20/U-23 results, so I have nothing to go on, though I expect it to come given time), but if you get some good luck like Mexico (groups of life, or moderately difficult groups in 3 straight cups), who knows? Greece got through, and through two games the only team as bad as Greece was Cameroon, and possibly South Korea.
I'll just leave with this for now, I expect Iran to make it to Russia, and to '22 wherever it ends up being held, but I also don't expect Iran to make the leap until the '26 or '30 at the earliest, because I don't see signs of it in youth development, but maybe like us, you can use dual nationals to plug some holes while you try to work on that side of the game? Oh, that, and clean up the FA issues. FA issues have completely or partially derailed World Cup efforts by Ghana, Cameroon, France, North Korea and Togo in 2014 and 2010 and 2006. It's a difficult enough battle for the players, the last thing they need is to have to fight with their own fed for proper support.
Yea that was the best match of the tournament for me, it was so exciting and intriguing. Both teams attacking and defending in a balanced way..(No bunkering shit). Nigeria really gave argentina a run for their money, cool game.
lmao at those whose think Iran played a better game with argentina than anyone in the group(simply because they bunkered and thus defended well). Well any team can do that easily, it's as easy as putting your 10 players before the ball and causing road blocks, lol. But nigeria and argentina were there to win, there weren't playing "not to lose".
I really think either Nigeria or Bosnia would do better than Iran in the knockout stage and so am glad nigeria made it through and not some team who just can't face it's opposition by attacking well.
thumbs up to bosnia for showing that Iran is actually the weakest in the group, cos I guessed they attacked this time and yet still nothing for them, lol.
this so much
it also produced one of the coolest/nicest moments of this WC so far, thanks to that cool dude Enyeama, the referee, and the genius of Messi.
I love this!:
Wait, what? Argentina defended in a balanced way? I suppose that if we were suspect on the wings and just as suspect in the center then I guess we were balanced.
Pelotudeces aside, our defense aside from Rojo has been pretty scary. The only consolation I take is that not one team looked rock solid at the back. Even Germany whom I consider one of the sharper teams in the WC still show some weaknesses. This group played out as I expected with Messi finally going from a solid NT performer to an idolo. I think we can take the Swiss though Sabella has to make some genuine personnel and tactical adjustments something that he kinda does but kinda doesn't.
Haha he kinda does but not really
Argentina is a balanced team. It attacks both ways of the pitch.