Match 9 - BEL : SVK - MELER (TUR)

Discussion in 'Euro 2024 - Referee' started by code1390, Jun 17, 2024.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Match #9
    Belgium : Slovakia
    Monday, June 17
    18:00 CET / 12:00 EDT
    Frankfurt

    Referee: Halil Umut Meler (TUR)
    Assistant Referee 1: Mustafa Emre Eyisoy (TUR)
    Assistant Referee 2: Kerem Ersoy (TUR)
    Fourth Official: Serdar Gözübüyük (NED)

    VAR: Bastian Dankert (GER)
    AVAR1: Alper Ulusoy (TUR)
    AVAR2: Marco Fritz (GER)
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Truly an excellent onside decision for the Slovakia goal. One of those where it kind of doesn't matter anymore, because it's checked either way. But given how that play developed I was sure he was offside. Lot of fast moving bodies on an unexpected turnover and the AR nailed it. If we want to appreciate accurate decision-making in our ARs, this one is worth noting.
     
  3. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Live I was sure he was off. It’s a great example of flash-lag.
     
  4. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Apparently I can’t edit things today. My opposable thumbs aren’t cooperating.
     
  5. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Machnik with a rare decent explanation on why Lukaku's goal would be disallowed.

    When he was called for feedback on the stoppage for a possible head injury on the goal line clearance by Slovakia, it took him forever to speak.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would put this in the exceedingly rare classification of VAR interventions that no one (except the guilty player and the defender next to him) could see in real-time but that absolutely had to happen. VAR saves a mistake that no one could have known was a mistake.

    What I still can't grasp in a situation like this is the offending player truly thinking he'd get away with it and celebrating like it really was going to be 1-1. I guess there's always that miniscule chance that 20+ cameras missed a blatant handball but, well, not really.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meler pretty clearly giving a "I'm playing 1 more on top of the stoppage time" to the whole world. Though we'll see if it it's actually "1 minute from this goal kick," as 30 secs were wasted.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the 1 actual minute, which makes sense, as the substitution was probably worth 30 seconds so the 30 extra wasted seconds were built-in.
     
  9. sheilman94

    sheilman94 Member

    Pittsburgh Spirit
    United States
    Jul 12, 2019
    I don't get the handball. I'm troubled by it because, are we supposed to call every touch of the arm now? I see this in high level matches a lot and waive it off as exactly what they don't want called. Unintentional.
    Reason: I see him tussling with the defender, arms balancing, and the ball glances off the hand. Belgian player is naturally balancing/being moved through his back. Part of the play.
    Absolutely do not agree with Machnik that "He knew what he was doing." The ball doesn't go anywhere else without glancing off the hand. It was not pushed forward, or brought down to his feet. Just a high bouncing ball in the middle of two players in the same spot.
    It seems a lot of fan comments are: where else are his arms supposed to go? That's justified.
    I think it sets a different standard. It looks much worse in slow motion. VAR intervenes.
    It takes away another goal that virtually no referee would call in real time, and no defending team likely would have disputed in real time.
     
  10. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The defenders were immediately yelling for a handball after the goal was scored. The game does not want hand-assisted goals to be scored. No one cares what fans think.
     
    AremRed repped this.
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He had his hand open and he palmed the ball. This wasn't an accident. Machink was, *gulp*, absolutely correct if he said "he knew what he was doing."

    And the idea that "the ball doesn't go anywhere else" seems insane to me. If you believe that, I don't know how to convince you otherwise. But it seems patently obvious that the ball changes trajectory and goes perfectly into his stride rather going more directly toward goal, where the Slovak defender would then have position on him.
     
  12. sheilman94

    sheilman94 Member

    Pittsburgh Spirit
    United States
    Jul 12, 2019
    180 degree disagree.
    First, I didn't see any defenders call for handball, but maybe I missed. There seemed to be surprise all around it was reviewed. Lukaku seemed to be saying "For what?" One of the stories, either Reuters or ESPN, noted this, too. I also don't care what fans think, but I was just interested in reaction. Cause I don't get it. FOX commentators were 100 percent got it right. But I don't take their opinion seriously, either.
    I think it's soft, and only called because of VAR and a chip that detected a slight move, which was meant for goalline handballs directly scoring a goal.
    Second, I'm looking at it again and again. It only glances off his thumb/forefinger, as he is slightly pushed into it by the defender. His hand seems to be outside the ball, not pushing it forward or down. Ball still goes to virtually the same spot without it.
    I'd like to be convinced if it's wrong, but I just don't see it. I didn't see the flow changing at all. The players were fighting for the ball. It's what they call a good non-call both ways. But VAR destroys the game management.
    Lineker railed against it, and I think he's got better points on this than Machnik. I don't see any intent.
    The ESPN story made a point that this likely would not have been called in the Premier League, but UEFA referees have a different standard.
    ????
    So, my point is, are YOU calling this live? Because that apparently is the standard set. If there is no doubt this is a handball? I say I highly doubt you would on the field.
    The next time I do an adult, college, or even high school game, and a defender guides the attacker into the ball and it hits his arm, I'm calling a handball? That attacker would tell me that's soft. But I guess my reply should be, go ask Belgium.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See my post #6 above. I literally said this out of the gate. How is this relevant? If it's a deliberate handball and only two people in the entire park can see it... are we to thus ignore the deliberate handball?

    It's in the referee's diagonal but the referee is looking through the backs of the players. Neither AR can see it. No other Slovak defenders would see it because they would be looking through their teammate. No Belgian players would have an angle on it either. The only person on-field other than the two players contesting for the ball who might have a good angle on this would be the Dubravka.

    So you care what Lukaku asks and maybe what ESPN or Reuters said but not fans but FOX commentators but not really... do I have that right?

    This chip thing is already being overblown. It's an additional layer that UEFA is using here to help confirm everything. But I am beyond 100% confident that this gets called without the chip.

    I'm quite certain you would not like this, which is why it's pretty clear that's going to be impossible. So I'll stop there other than to say...

    It all depends what "this" is. In this case you have two issues that the referee is dealing with. It's a slight handball touch AND he's completely shielded. So taking the second point first... no, you're not calling it live in a non VAR match because you can't call what you literally can't see. But if you do have the angle and it's a slight touch like this, well, you got to be sure and that's a subjective thing for each individual referee.

    But that's NOT the standard set. Pretending that the standard from a VAR international match is akin to the standard in a local amateur match is sophistry. We have VAR at this level to catch errors that we cannot possibly catch or fix at other levels. But you don't think this is a deliberate act, so we'd just go round and round in circles if we continue engaging on this.
     
  14. sheilman94

    sheilman94 Member

    Pittsburgh Spirit
    United States
    Jul 12, 2019
    Looking again, for the umpteenth time, the defender who was on the play is calling for handball. I do see it. He's the only one. Got it.
    The touch by the hand happens at the moment he's corralled by the defender's arm. I'm even more convinced, there is no way it's intentional. The touch is part of the tussle with the defender. There's a battle just to maintain balance, and the ball glances off his hand.
    I agree ref is shielded and no way he could see it live. Still, I think it sets a standard. If he HAD seen it live, then it should be called, right? Where's the sophistry?
    If it's a handball then this slight touch that he was pushed into should have been called ... I guess. That's what worries me if I see it. Because I do. Plenty of times.
    Therefore, I completely disagree with the call. It's no intent whatsoever.
    Slow motion only enhances it and makes it look worse - even though it's still a four-armed men flailing/leveraging for position. Speed of play, there's no way.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Henry was just unlucky too in 2009 when the ball hit his hand in stride and just happened to go exactly where he wanted it to and it led to a goal. Silly that prompted all this VAR stuff. All over a totally accidental handball that wasn’t a foul.
     
  16. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    4:20 it starts.
    4:32 you can clearly see the Belgian player slap the ball back into his path as the defender was forcing him away from it.

     

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