But do we blame the referee (and, honestly, pretty much every referee at this world cup for not picking up on PI/tactical fouls) or do we blame FIFA for the instructions they must have given to avoid those things? Because the mind boggles if all of these top officials can't recognize PI/tactical fouls. I mean, I guess it's a possibility, but for this many white badges to not understand what your run of the mill 6 does about PI? Haimoudi was excellent. Wasn't his biggest fan after his earlier performances but he made this one look easy.
Haimoudi did pick up on Fellini's foul count and spoke to him late in the first half shortly after booking Kompany. I believe it was the third time he called Fellini for the upper body contact off of corner kicks.
If you have ever seen Felliani play, you would know that this is the way he plays. He commits tons of ticky tack fouls. Sometimes, they amount to a PI and sometimes they don't. He's like a big u12. Nothing awful, and mostly not worthy of a card. I think we sometimes forget that cards MEAN something. What would carding him have done? Probably nothing. He would have kept on commiting the small fouls. At this level, the referees know tendencies, and styles. For anyone of us on this board to say that Haimoudi couldn't recognize PI is absolutely foolish. The referee knew exactly what he was doing. And he refereed a great game.
I agree -- I don't think all the FIFA referees have magically forgotten to track and punish PI. I'm fairly certain there must be some instruction to avoid such cautions or possibly to really raise the bar on it. While I see PI as a low visibility way to avoid a few a cautions in a match, it drives me nuts as a (former) referee and certainly has an impact on the game tactics. I think most run of the mill fans don't notice it, though.
Only if he believed the referee didn't mean it when he gave the yellow in the first place. A caution is supposed to be exactly that: a warning that unless things change the player won't be permitted to continue playing the game. I agree that he must have been reffing in accord with a policy decision to be extra-cautious with plastic. I'm not sure I agree with that, as it created a (mostly) safe haven for tactical and semi-tactical fouls. And IMHO, that damaged the quality of play throughout the tournament. (But I also don't know what the answer is -- I get that with the low suspension threshhold, ticky-tack cautions were clearly not wanted.)
We only announce whole minutes but it certainly is possible to have 1:30 of stoppage. Just round down when announcing, so 1:30 would be announced as 1 minute added time. From FIFA:
Thought he was really good. Only quibble is the missed stomp against Jones that should have been FK just outside area.
I think the answer lies in the expansion of the accumulated yellow suspensions. If, the refs are going to keep cards in their pockets, and if that affects game play, then we need to broaden the suspension. Two yellows over 5 games in a high profile tournament is too tight. I think if you get out of the groups, then your yellow count starts again. I think FIFA wants it's best players on the pitch for the knockout stages, but they are doing it artificially. Broaden the yellow suspension.
I did. I didn't excoriate you, just wanted to reinforce the point to those at home. If you don't want a post replied to, perhaps delete it? Lol.
So are we(generally speaking) thinking that FIFA is saying to the refs 'Hey he already has a yellow... do not caution him in this game because he is a premier player' or are the refs themselves saying 'i do not want to caution this player and be the person who makes him miss a game'
Well, that's exactly what I said and I don't think it was foolish. You don't think that there are at least a handful of referees at every World Cup who aren't adept at understanding, identifying, and dealing with tendencies and styles? I sure do. I'm not very familiar with Haimoudi as a referee and don't know how sophisticated a referee he is. His performance on this match was very good, but it raised questions for me.
Given the consistency with which we see referees slow to draw yellow cards for perstent infringement, tactical fouls, and time wasting (and to a lesser degree reckless fouls)*, as well as the seemingly higher threshold for immediate send offs for serious foul play, it seems to me that ther must have been some level-setting before the tournament with the referees as a group on what standards refeeres were expected to use. To the extent that you are asking if the "premier players" are then getting special treatment that is different from other players, I think the answer is "no." I think an overall standard is being applied fairly consistently, and that the result of that is making it less likely that a star will miss a marquee game. ______ *I don't include dissent and failure to respect distance as those don't seem to be cautionable in most professional games absent extreme behavior.
I'll call it responsibility rather than blame. Responsibility probably lies with both the governing body and the referees. Certainly referee behavior and actions are influenced at every World Cup based on the particular approach that FIFA wants to see, points of emphasis, etc. This is unfortunate. But there's a line that cannot be crossed, whether it's the line for serious foul play or for persistent infringement or for anything else. There's only so much leeway a referee can and will allow, before he must take action, regardless of the guidance from above.
But it ignores the fact that PI and tactical fouls have been rarely cautioned by all referees at this WC. I can only think of one PI caution -- and we can all probably name a large handful that would have most certainly recieved them under the standards typically applied in top tier professional games.
Tendency and styles, maybe, but I would hope that every single FIFA referee could recognize and deal with PI. For goodness sake, I have that expectation of G6/5 referees, although my expectations aren't always met.
To defend this poster, unfortunately this forum has an AWESOME feature where you can't edit or delete a post after half an hour or so . It absolutely boggles my mind why BigSoccer chooses to use a platform where editing and deleting posts is impossible after a time period. There's been times where I've written an unnecessarily mean post when I was angry, and tried to go back to remove it after I've cooled off, only to find it impossible. No idea how that makes the site better. Bigsoccer is the only forum I've ever been on that's like this. But I suppose that's a discussion for a different place and time..
Actually, they set it up so that no one would miss the final for accumulation. Doing it the way they have makes it most likely that players would be missing for the quarterfinals, which I find a questionably desirable outcome. If there had been lots of cards given in this tourney, we could have seen decimated squads for this coming round. As it is, we only have Luiz Gustavo and Marcos Rojo out for accumulation I think. Mexico and Chile would have been down two players each if they had advanced.
My point is the accumulation penalty forces the refs to keep cards in pocket. I would like to see extra yellows added instead of your slate being wiped clean.
I know people will object, but I'd like to see accumulation GONE. Turn the refs lose to administer cautions as designed IN THIS GAME with no effect outside this game. Will a thug figure "hey one free whack"? Probably, but then he gets a caution quick and he's no under control for the game. I hate artificial policies that only punish the player, or force the refs to consider outside this game. Take out accumulation, enforce PI, tactical, FRD, DR, the "ticky tacs" and get on with the game.
That's fair. I also didn't mean to come across as snarky with my reply. Well, overly so. I suppose my reply was repetitive, anyways, so next time... I'll refrain.
Really, I was just using your post as a convenient way to get on my soap box. What were we talking about again?
Don't use my SN as a clever play on words, haha. I think we were either lamenting the misuse of proper FIFA language or lambasting the possibility of video replay. Oh, and there's some tournament going on in Brazil, too.