Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion v2.0

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

i know, i just disagree. call me bias, call me pro-dutch, i still disagree.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Where as you are a true example of objectivity.

Yes... well, while not having the chance to play somewhere does of course have an impact, one must wonder why? Teams haven't started scouting last week, you know?
And yes, one does sort of needs to actually play the game in an impressive manner in a really competetive environment for a little longer than just 1 season to be considered one of the truely greats. Unfortunately... for thousands of players from many countries.

All this and still... what was your point again?

If you think Gullit and Cruijff belong in the same category, I can understand your confusion on the other issues in your post...

Who are these historians you mention?

5 wins... 5 draws... 1 loss... in a friendly. Pretty good record.

Huh? You think cameroon are easy too?

Me too.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Add me in the pro-Dutch group please

An average Dutch street football player will be equal to an average African football player.

And comparing this team to the 2006 team is laughable to me. We played with a bench player from Barcelona, a very old PSV player and a very young Ajax player in our midfield. We can currently use players from teams as Real Madrid, Inter, Bayern, Man. City as midfielder.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Dutch people, just give up, Maruti is blinded by his obsession with everything to do with African football. As I was reading through, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, until he started saying about how Milla, Eto'o, and even Abega were/are equal to Cruyff, Gullit, and van Basten. Once statements like that are made you really have to stop taking whoever is posting seriously and just humour them.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Abega was arguably the best African player playing for an African country (so that we don't include Eusebio). There was a whole generation of African players who never got to play in Europe and hence they were not noticed by non-Africans. At the time scouts weren't heavily attending the ACoN, local clubs were forgotten by Europe .

Really - I can understand a lot. But the fact that during the 70s-80s Africa was mostly unchecked territory is a given. It is not debatable. Many of the best African players are solely known by Africans. Abega is widely held to be one of the best footballers in African history. The fact he started playing in Europe at the age of 31 says more about the times, skin-deep racism and the place of Africa in the world than about the player.

Yes. The guys hardly ever had a chance to compete internationally, but still the Cameroon generation of Abega and Milla had two great tournaments in 1982 and 1990. In the first they didn't lose a single game (and the played the teams that ended 3rd and 1st at the tournament) and only didn't advance due to having 2 perfectly good goals disallowed. If that hadn't had happened Italy wouldn't have won the world cup, cuz they wouldn't have advanced through the group.

I understand we are talking about achievements. Well... Abega achieved all he could achieve on the African soil, but was never given a chance to prove himself internationally. Still if you ever saw how skillful he was you could easily see that he is as best as the best of his times. Rent an old tape and watch Cameroon-Poland or Cameroon-Italy from 1982.

All those dimwits that make world best players lists...

I've decided not to be cynical to your cynicism. Take the high road.

I checked. 1994 and 1998 were much easier groups.
But compare: 2006 and 2010
The main thing that makes this group weaker is Denmark and no Argentina. Cameroon is probably a better team than Cote d'Ivoire albeit they have less individuals.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Surprisingly statements that Eto'o is a player not of the same calibre as Seedorf or RvN seem to be widely accepted...

In such a lopsided view of the world you guys don't come off to be objective. If you had at least not agreed with scrumptious's initial comment you would have had some credibility...

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

No one was objecting to your statement about Eto'o in relation to Seedorf or van Nistelrooy, certainly his achievements would suggest he's at least on par with those two and most likely surpassed them.
If you read my post you would see that it's the comparison of the likes of Milla and Abega to certified legends such as Cruyff and Gullit that is so utterly ridiculous. How you can honestly even suggest that someone like Milla could be on par with a player like Cruyff is completely beyond me.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Well... Milla is a certified legend in his own right. Abega is a player unknown outside of Africa and as such will never be treated as such. Basically it is a pointless argument. I know he was a terrific player, but given the time period and external circumtances he was never given the opportunity to shine as Cryuff or Gullit. Its an argument I can not win and I accept that. Abega will never have any chance in hell to prove he was as good as the best.

On the other hand - you have no chance in hell to prove that he wasn't

That does not change the fact that he is deemed by many to be the best midfielder ever to play in Africa.

Question is: How can you really compare? You can't say that Gullit was better. He definitely achieved more, but also had more opportunity to do so. I myself if I rated the best Cameroon player would put Abega as no1. The best I can suggest is to watch Cameroon-Poland (playing against Lato, Boniek and Szarmach as equals) or Cameroon-Italy in 1982. Cameroon was based mostly on local league players but played like equals against two of the best teams in the world. The team was led by Abega, not Milla. And Cameroon should have advanced from that group, not the 1982 World Champions Italy

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Maybe true...but one cannot disregard characteristics of humans in totality.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Your misinterpreting my whole thread. If you read carefully in one of my posts i said that it would be easier to find level 10 players in Europe than in Africa...In the same breath, you will more than likely find more level 6-7 players in Africa, but more level 2 players in Europe. The extremes will be larger in Europe, but the average talent will be larger in Africa.
Basically it comes down to this:

I am speaking more of the development stages - or the very early careers of soccer players. In africa the same talented players just dont have the firepower in development that Van Basten and Bergamp had...
Just where i work there are players of a really high standard, but yet they are mere low income workers. Some of the players in their team were like 50...they played a top well known social club here and beat them a while back. Point being, that no one knows about them, yet they have the same abilities to those who are in higher leagues. There are tons of these kind of scenarios in africa. Local petrol jockeys who have great soccer skils. 3 Year olds kicking the ball around in the dirt together with 10 year olds....

I never did and it was never my argument

what is smaller in your eyes? Holland is great to watch, but i wont be surprised if say Denmark beats them...

I'm sorry to say but there is no way on earth that you will find more social soccer players in holland than in most african countries and countries like China or Brazil. In fact, i dare to say most poverty stricken nations dont play fifa on the playstation like dutch kids probably will, but will rather play soccer outside kicking a tennis ball around.

Again, with extremes you are a step ahead, sure, but on average, africa will have more skill...

Soccer is of a high level everywhere. Maybe it is because of dutch pride that its been so long since a world cup in their cupboard? Sure, africa doesn't have one, but humility will prevail eventually.

do you even know how big soccer is here?

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

you don't know this, you're just assuming.

while like you say in africa kids are playing eachother in the dirt, dutch kids play in real competitions at real clubs and are being trained by real trainers.

outside of their 3 days training a week with a game in the weekends they play each day after school whether it be on the street, on the grass or on cruyff courts.

dutch kids have an advantage for being able to train at better facilities, with better equipment and better guides.

the same with adults, there are probably more amateur soccer players here than all the other sport combined, so on average i'm inclined to say there are probably more social soccer players in holland than in africa.

you missed my point about fifa street. fifa asked those dutch players to help out because of their high technical ability, the same reason as to why ronaldinho was on the cover with them. those tricks are theirs.

on averaga an african player is not more skilled than an european. ever heard of the homeless world cup? since the start there has always been a european winner.

brazil came 4th behind holland in the 1st edition and made the semi's only once again after that (an african team never made the podium). the reason why brazil have so many professional players is because it's such a big country.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

based on this argument, i don't think its worth debating with you any further...cause what you are suggesting here is very far fetched...about 10 times more than Maruti's "Eto vs. Van Basten" type debates...

no offence Maruti....your arguments seems like chocolate compared to the poison i just heard above....

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

selfs op gemiddeld meisie....dis sommer laf...

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

on average .

how is that "very far fetched".

you probably think every african from toddler to granny has soccer on their mind and does nothing else than kick tennis balls around. i'm sorry but it's not

out of all 5 women's world cups, 3 times the winner was from europe. brazil never won it, african teams have never even made it out of their group.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

I haven't touched on womans football....which is a debate on its own

But i suppose its the way you wrote it that seems like you mean otherwise.
Let me ask this:
Are you suggesting that there are more soccer players on a social level, than in the whole of africa?

Even "on average" you are wrong....You would be possible be correct in saying that you will find more events of an organised nature...maybe

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

ofcourse on average

africa with a population of about 840 million compared to holland with their 16 mil. means the dutch will always have a higher percentage of "social" footballers.

can i add a "duh" to that? you see, not so far fetched after all huh?

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

ok....sorry...didn't know you mean it averages in that kind of context. I thought you meant the overall total of africa and its average vs. the total of holland and its average...

Yes, i agree, Holland is a soccer nation and not all african nations are as soccer nationed ...its hard comparing africa to holland alone then i suppose...

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Yeah, and we (well I don't) don't live in Holland but in the Netherlands


You guys might beat Holland, but you won't beat the Netherlands.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

i prefer holland. the plural netherlands sounds like they mean the benelux.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Nah, I prefer Batavia

Batavian Republic, best name in our history.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

wow... what is it with this thread that it always seems to go into weird directions...

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

I'd go for Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden. Just the name though...

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

Yes... the future is unpredictable.

 

Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

how about paesi bassi

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paesi_Bassi



no bassie & adriaan jokes please.