Match 104 [Final] : ESP : ARG - VINCIC (SVN)

I believe there was also the Dumfries second yellow after the shootout in NEDvARG that year

 

Seems like no red card was given. So unless they were specifically told not to give post-match cards….how can Vincic and his ARs be staring at Argentina players throwing haymakers and *not* give a red card?

 

Longtime Miami Herald soccer reporter Michelle Kaufman reports that the red card was given to Parades and then removed:

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/fifa-world-cup/article316585209.html

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

I’m extremely skeptical of this reporting.

What is it based on? Did the reporter herself in person see Vincic show a red card that apparently no photographers caught? Has she seen a video or at least a photo of the red cars being shown? Or is she simply running off of a falsely-reported story that Vincic did show a red card and comparing that story to the fact that there’s none listed in the match report?

I’m going to go ahead and say it’s the latter.

 

The only thing I know is that she's a long time respected reporter who was at the game.

This is her 7th World Cup that she's covered, which is pretty rare in US reporting circles.

 

I find this conversation about red cards after the final whistle to be wildly navel-gazey, even for us. Do we really think that FIFA wanted the referee crew to be surrounding all 52 players, 30+ bench personnel, and hundreds of media etc. members, attempting to oversee everything that's happening, and then isolating players etc. while they talked as a team to decide who should be given red cards? This was never going to be the instruction or expectations. There are dozens of (official) cameras and the consequences for misbehavior can (and, one hopes, will) be enforced by FIFA based on the footage review post-game. This isn't a youth tournament where everyone gets together and slaps hands after their 9am game, two U16 boys get into a scuffle, and you need to report things before their 3pm games.

 

That’s basically why I wrote a long comment earlier saying that this stuff needs to be defined. Cuz I can imagine that if someone punishes someone right after the referee blows his final whistle, right in front of him, the red card would come out. But not necessarily after some time has passed. Maybe there’s an element of common sense to this that would not be easy to write into rule as a rigid temporal boundary.

 

Old man here again. There used to be a time in the professional game when giving him another yellow was demanded and expected (i.e. Rooney against Villarreal) and everybody would say "what a stupid boy he is there."

I think the days of getting back to back yellows in the same sequence don't exist anymore unless you get some weird VAR loophole.

It especially isn't happening in the World Cup Final.



Getting punished for showing up the referee used to be a thing, but that ship sailed years ago.

I mentioned after the Croatian disallowed goal via VAR how Cancelo got in the face of the 4th official to taunt him and the 4th just stood there like a traffic cone.

 

On Paredes and his antics.

I used to say the term cowardly and shameless alot more on this board when I was younger and less much mature.

I'm much more mindful of saying it less and now and try to be fair to these guys at that level.

However, looking back on what Paredes did in the Netherlands game it really is shameless and cowardly that Lahoz didn't send off Paredes there.

It really is ridiculous that he did that in a World Cup match and didn't get sent-off.

He got away with that so it is not a surprise that he did what he did in the Final.

I know all about the real or perceived pressure to keep 22 players on the pitch at the World Cup, etc. but there is a point where behavior is so outrageous that your referee instinct should take over and you instinctively produce a red or second caution without hesitation.

Look at the Fernandez red card. Vincic showed no hesitation because it was so over the top. You think he wanted to give a red card there? Of course not, but naturually instincts built up over 30 years of doing this took over.

 

Did anyone else notice the shenanigans Argentina tried to pull off to stop Fernandez getting sent off? As soon as Fernandez commits the foul, 30 yards away from the ball Tagliafico falls down completely untouched and rolls around pretending to be hurt. Messi and Paredes immediately go to the ref and point towards Tagliafico while the Argentina bench goes nuts. Seems pretty obvious it was something they'd worked on to try to distract the ref when they suspected a red card card was coming. Disgraceful! They should be banned from 2030.

 

https://streamff.com/v/178ed2e6

I don't think Vincic comes out of this incident that badly. Fernandez only sarcastically applauds to his back, not his face (like Rooney/Nielsen) and does stop when the referee turns round.

 

The bar will be 4X higher to give yellow cards via VAR then to take them away just like the bar is for disallowing goals rather than awarding goals or awarding penalty kicks.

 

Where do you find this all-22 footage? And more importantly, how deep into the postgame does it go? Some people still stubbornly insist that because a bunch of news outlets regurgitated the same slop article about Paredes’s “red card” that it totally happened and wasn’t just a case of lazy, irresponsible journalism feeding off of other lazy, irresponsible journalism.

 

I don’t follow the argument. We’re as close as we’ve ever been to an explicit statement that second yellows are a higher bar than firsts. Just like we’ve basically reached a point where it’s clearly explicit instruction that fouls in the attacking third have a much different bar from those in your own penalty area (just compare the ARG-EGY VAR decision to any number of penalties not given).

Are you arguing against setting those different thresholds?

 

Except in that it would be a second yellow card. Which I think Vincic understands is a much higher bar than the first. The sarcastic clap might be enough for a first yellow but it wasn't enough for a second.

 

I mean, I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm sure I've left plenty of comments on this board advocating against this philosophy! But I don't think the SPA, reckless, DR, or FRD second cautions would work the way you say they would either. If it didn't reach the high bar for a second yellow, he probably wouldn't give them either, even if they were worse than the first yellow. I think this is bad too! But that's the modern way.

 

I thought the visible dissent caution was soft. Not in a vacuum, but in the context of the cup. There were much worse examples of visual dissent. I thought it very odd that it was this game where a line was drawn on something that could easily have been passed on. The clapping then made it bizarre--though I kinda thought at the time that the player started clapping and caught himself realizing what he was doing and that he could get sent off for it. And I don't think Vincic really wants to get anywhere near a 2CT for dissent send off, so that may have been enough of an excuse for him to move on.