ManU-Arsenal Part Deux

Discussion in 'Premier League: News and Analysis' started by jmpike, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. Prawn Sandwich

    Oct 1, 2003
    Bhutan
    Alright - last comment. If the case was as you described then surely RVN would have hit Vera in the chest and not the back?
     
  2. Its only Ray Parlour

    Aug 3, 2003
    London
    Opinion/story it's still half-assed. What the hell has Vieira being on a misconduct charge for not leaving the pitch quick enough got to do with the fact that he may or may not have attempted to control the ball instead of intentionally foul a player outside his own area whilst he is already on a yellow card, when he could quite simply take the ball down on his chest OR even head it. Your worming out with totally irrelevant information.

    Scenario....A ball is coming down from about twenty-feet in the air, what do you expect me to do?....Anything is the answer. Hansen and Neal have as much idea about what someone is a likely to do in one instance as you or I. They are defenders they would go for safety first and lose possession by knocking it forward 20 yards. Where someone else may bring it on their chest, or control with their foot or simply duck and let the ball run behind and let the keeper collect or gather the ball after its bounced.

    Did Given know what Henry had in mind when he scored his pen? It's guess-work.

    The only person who has an ikling of what they want to do is the player. Vieira in commenting on what had happened and why he had kicked out at van Nistelrooy, passively commented on the fact that he wanted to chest the ball.

    It is and has not been a bone of contention until you made your insinuation.

    I know who i'd rather believe.
     
  3. jmpike

    jmpike New Member

    Sep 29, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    Moderator, PLEASE!

    What I can't understand is this:

    1) I am an Arsenal fan and I agree with ManU fans. Okay, I'm not learned in the art of football. But the arguments still goes on about something we all see on the tape, which is the very first thing: DID VIEIRA see the ball coming or not? He didn't.

    And I'm glad I brought it up because this is a real football discussion. In the other MB they got so mad at me for making a silly joke, when that thread has nothing to do with the sport! A moderator over there please! (Alarming news, last page)

    2) I guess there's no argument about the history to this incident - I was asking a legitimate question!

    So can we or can we not discuss football on this messageboard?
     
  4. Its only Ray Parlour

    Aug 3, 2003
    London
    Re: Moderator, PLEASE!

    Come on, Vieira saw the ball. Even the manc isn't disputing this...or is he going to look for support by changing his argument and dropping the Hansen/Neal line.
     
  5. house18

    house18 Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    Wasn't this the same interview when he insisted that Ruud was trying to stomp on him???? Credibility gone! 'Nuff said! Laters!
     
  6. jmpike

    jmpike New Member

    Sep 29, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    I insist, Moderator, PLEASE!

    How could he see the ball coming from behind him? He was heading to the penalty area when suddenly he felt the knees of a 180 pound man on his back, coming from the side. VNR jumped up, but climbing up on him to reach it. If you watch it in slow motion from the ref's POV, you can see RVN grabbing Vieira by the waist to balance himself. This is a red card offense from Ruud's part.

    Then they both fell down.
     
  7. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    Probably still upset? He looked upset long after getting the card. I'm not so sure the guy could't use some help from a sports psychologist on how to better keep that anger under wraps. I love his passion but his anger was misdirected both on his initial yellow (he had it coming given his persistent infringements) and his attempt to kick van Goal.

    As for the idea that van Goal kicked him during that jump or right after it, I just don't see it. I can see how people would question Keown getting called for taking down Forlan but I don't see a stamp, kick, bite, or anything in all of the replays that have been shown. Viera may truely believe this was somehting RVN did or tried to do. I don't doubt that. But just cuz someone strongly believes in aliens doesn't mean it's true.
     
  8. Prawn Sandwich

    Oct 1, 2003
    Bhutan
    You have your opinion, I have mine. You choose to use comments from players who are currently under investigation for the incident to back up your opinion. I choose to use opinions from ex-pros who played the game for over ten years at the highest level to back up my opinion.

    I know you'd rather believe Vera - problem is that this sort of self-policing has got Arsenal into the disciplinary problems they face now. Had Wenger actually seen an incident for a change and done something about it maybe you wouldn't be facing playing a number of games with only one recognisable defensive player.

    And before you accuse me of bias/blinkers. Man U had a similar disciplinary problem a few years back. Culmination of this issue was the barracking of D'Urso back in January of 2000. Man U realised this was a step too far and that this behaviour would not be accepted in the future. Result is that Man U now currently reside at or near the top of the fair play league for the last 3 seasons.

    If Gooners took those paranoid blinkers off for more than 30 seconds they may realise this is a turning point for their club. Continue to ignore this problem and you will see your club shrivel to nothing as it continues to cut costs to fund Cashburton Grove - do you really think you have a squad that can handle the quantity of suspensions you guys have already churned in the first two months of the season? Fail to qualify for the Champions League just once and you can whistle goodbye to your stars as their salaries will bankrupt the club as it continues to fund the new stadium....
     
  9. jmpike

    jmpike New Member

    Sep 29, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    Thank you. Why has this turned into such controversy, and the Ref blamed because 1) he did do something or 2) he didn't do what he was supposed to do?

    Vieira was irate for too long because in his view, Van Goal deserved a red card. Vieira wasn't refuting his second yellow.

    It's embarrassing for a player to object to Bennett's decision. A ref must keep the pace up, which is fast, and moderate things. Bennett did not choose for moderation, he just went for the cards - because this is what he was told to do before the season started. Vieira was angry at this decision, RVN stays but he goes. In Vieira's opinion, how can that be if he didn't start the foul?
     
  10. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    And please don't dispute what house18 says, for God's sake, or he'll read you the riot act about your lack of morals and how he hopes you have no contact with small, faint hearted children!
     
  11. Alan_V

    Alan_V Member

    Apr 22, 2003
    Anaheim, CA via NJ
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me get this straight, an absolute pro like Viera in the middle of the most important game of the year so far, wants to chest a 50-50 high ball down, with opposing players not 10 feet from him who are extremely capable of going up for the ball? He's either blind, not as sharp as everyone thinks or he's lying to save face (he is from 'that' country).

    Arguing with a staunch Arse fan is like listening to Wenger. All they do is defend their actions and claim conspiracy. Watching the replay of the 50-50 ball over Bennets shoulder showed no movement of his whistle hand as to call a foul. He didn't move until Viera kicked out. RvN came in from the side, but in front of Viera. So that makes a foul a judgement call never mind a card.

    Just to throw gasoline on the fire, I got this off the Barclaycard website (www.4thegame.com):

    "Ken Bates stirred up the Manchester United-Arsenal disciplinary debate by suggesting Arsene Wenger should be suspended.

    Controversial Chelsea chairman Bates chose once again to use his matchday programme column as a forum to express his views, this time ahead of the Champions League clash with Besiktas at Stamford Bridge.

    "The recent Man Utd-Arsenal incident has attracted much media attention but there is a much wider issue to be addressed and that is dissent shown by players against referees' decisions," said Bates. "Managers who criticise referees should be banned from the touchline and if they can't control their players they should be suspended themselves."

    Bates also warned that unruly players could influence young fans watching their heroes.

    He added: "The most serious knock-on effect is that kids see their heroes on TV and carry that behaviour into their own games. Dissent must not be tolerated - it must be stamped out."
     
  12. Its only Ray Parlour

    Aug 3, 2003
    London
    For goodness sake, i am really starting to wonder about the people on this board. What on earth are you talking about?!

    Players take balls in difficult situations every bloody game. van Nistelrooy could have headed the ball on to another player for his goal against Leicester at the weekend instead he chooses to risk losing the ball with 3 defenders around him by bringing it down with his foot and doing a bit of keepy-upies before scoring. I could use so many examples, it's ridiculous.

    I truely can't believe i'm having to explain football basics to people here. The reasons these players are payed so much is because they are able to do things most can't. AND this isn't even one of those situations. This is the kind of stuff i was taught when i was 14. Namely....

    1) Possession is key

    2) And how to trap the ball with any part of your body while your under pressure. Remedial stuff.

    Answer me this...why does a basketballer do a cross-over when they could easily just pass to a team mate or simply change their body position? Why does a Basketball go for a risky 3 points when dunking the ball is probably the safest score they can go for?...Answer they have the ability and confidence to do so, as well as it being the most effective way to achieve their goal. Simple as, End of.

    It's blindingly obvious most of you responding here don't like Arsenal because of the French influence on the club and would argue the toss over anything just to get a stupid "Frenchie" jibe in, even if does make you look like you've never kicked a ball in your life, never mind having any real appreciation for what it takes to be a footballer.

    Oh and Vieira an absolute pro? Gilberto Silva is an absolute pro, Nicky Butt is a good professional, Eddie Stewart is a good professional. Partrick VIEIRA is a World-Class Footballer "from That Country" (Alan_V [tm]), who has more ability than any of those mentioned put together.
     
  13. Prawn Sandwich

    Oct 1, 2003
    Bhutan
    Mate - just give up. You're making yourself look stupid, again.

    Strange how all the examples you provide are of players in attacking positions - Vieira was on the edge of his penalty box and the imperative was to clear the ball from danger. He would not try and chest the ball down when he has RVN bearing down on him at a rate of knots.

    You keep your blinkers on and be happy in the smug self-satisfaction that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

    Alternately, open your eyes and your mind to other peoples opinions and actually engage in a frank discussion - your inability to accept any criticism of Arsenal and their players highlights your close-minded attitude. If you are looking for a bunch of people to agree with you, recommend you head for the Arsenal FC website where you can converse with like-minded idiots....
     
  14. jmpike

    jmpike New Member

    Sep 29, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    no real subject

    It sure does no good to mention people from other countries out of spite. "That" country happened to win the World Cup in 98, and those players are world class. Just because you don't like the country, the discussion becomes hostile.

    Obviously many Americans are not as knowledgeable about football, but having this board and the soccer channel may help us improve. You Brits have to be a little more patient.

    My point with this posting: The first user said my questions were senseless and nothing further to discuss. Soon after that, 35 responses from people who disagree.

    Take a look at these descriptions, in the ManU 606 site.
    Bert Preast:
    It wasn't really a tackle, more like a mid-air meeting. As Ruud jumped to head the ball, Vieira ducked. Ruud sort of went over Vieira's back a bit, but he did kick his leg out whilst in the air. The kick was more of a flick and there was no power in it and it didn't travel very far. It didn't make contact with Vieira. When they landed, Vieira fell over as Ruud had taken a bit of a ride on him. Ruud did not stamp on him. Then Vieira kicked out at Ruud.
    John Wetherhead:
    Vieria was letting the ball come over his shoulder to give himself time to turn and clear when RVN came flying in 'Cantona at Palace style' and put his studs into Vieria's back - effectively standing on him pushing him to the ground. I imagine this hurt quite a lot.

    Both agree that Ruud did jump on him and this was a foul.
    None of the other details match.
     
  15. Only1Keano

    Only1Keano New Member

    Aug 20, 2003
    jesus christ all this is unnecessary. ruud fouled vieira, vieira kicked out at ruud. both were yellow card offences, both got given yellow cards so neither of them is more to blame than the other. bottom line is vieira was already on a yellow, if he'd got a yellow without already being on one no one would give a *#*#*#*#, it'd just be passed off as another incident. vieira knew he was already on a yellow so he was idiotic, ruud's challenge was clumsy and crude and he got duly penalised for it
     
  16. rossian

    rossian New Member

    Oct 1, 2003
    (putting my hand right up!!!!) I second that Prawn!!
     
  17. Its only Ray Parlour

    Aug 3, 2003
    London
    You seem to be a master of twisting things. Once again let me ask you where is your criticism, and where exactky have you see me defend Vieira kicking out at van Nistelrooy? Your screwing the argument to suite your own-ends.

    My stance is simple, you stated that you believe Vieira was about to deliberately foul van Nistelrooy (whilst Vieira was already on yellow outside of his own area) which i for obvious reasons (including the player outlining his intentions) wholly disagree. The fact that you cannot accept that a player in defensive position is incapable of doing anything else but give the ball away is another sticking point. Considering you have a defender in your squad who contradicts your stance on game-by-game basis in Rio Ferdinand, also shows you are the one who has their blinkers well and truely on. All your other ramblings including you and your mates stupid "Frenchie" jibes are an irrelvance.

    This is very boring, you either don't watch much football or haven't played very much to understand this. Where are all the proper Mancs?

    Watch any game of football and then come back and tell me that you still believe a defender can do nothing but clear the ball under pressure.
     
  18. giggs88

    giggs88 Member

    May 11, 2003
    Virginia
    for whatever wrongs both viera and ruud did, they were punished. viera got his second yellow so he was told to *#*#*#*# off, and ruud too got a yellow.


    *********end of discussion************
     
  19. Mac_Howard

    Mac_Howard New Member

    Mar 5, 2002
    Mandurah, Perth, WA
    I have a recording of the match - unfortunately Premiership matches are played at very inconvenient times for Australians - and have played the RvN/Vieira clash time and time again, in real time, in slow motion and even frame by frame. I'll give you my description of what takes place and do my best to eliminate any bias.

    Vieria moves the ball out of his penalty area and from a couple of yards out plays the ball forwad toward the centre circle. It's badly played and goes straight to Phil Neville some 20/25 yards away. Neville decides to hit the ball back over Vieria's head towards the left corner flag (from Utd's perspective) for O'Shea or Fortune to run on to.

    He mishits it and it soars into the air and looks to be coming down just about where Vieira is standing.

    Vieira shapes up to control - probably on his chest as he makes no move to jump - thinking at that point that he will be unchallenged.

    RvN is standing 3 to 4 yards away forward and to Vieira's right. He decides to challenge Vieira though I don't think he has much idea where the ball is, merely "up there" somewhere and coming down roughly where Vieira's standing. He moves then jumps towards Vieira with the intention of making it difficult for Vieira to control the ball.

    It's a "jumping in" foul and Bennett has decided to call it even before the two of them hit the ground.

    Realising that RvN is going to challenge, Vieira turns through 180 degrees and his back to the leaping RvN. He shapes as if to let the ball fall over his head and then control the ball as he shields it from RvN. He stoops forward in preparation.

    This effectively "makes a back" for RvN - the stooping player undercuts the jumping player's legs and causes him to rotate and come down upper body first. Painful!

    I don't think he deliberately made a back but that was the effect of his movement.

    RvN jumps very high - his feet are a good 3 feet of the ground - and lands on the stooping Vieira's back. This propels Vieira back towards his own goal as he's sent sprawling to the ground. RvN flails his arms and legs as he tries to stop the rotation so that he comes down feet first. Because Vieira is propelled away RvN doesn't make contact at all with Vieira beyond the initial impact and he doesn't kick or contact Vieira in any way.

    Vieira lands prostrate on his stomach and RvN keeps his balance and comes down a good yard away.

    At this point Vieira rolls to his left, plainly annoyed at RvN for the collision and kicks out his right boot in RvN's direction. It's too far away to make contact and Vieira doesn't fully extend his leg -suggesting he thought better of it as he made the kick or didn't intend to make contact from the first.

    Not that RvN (or the ref) can know that and he jumps back, spins round to the referee with his arms outstretched gesticulating "what's this all about ref?".

    The ref's behaviour is interesting and informative. He's about 15 yards towards the centre circle and has a clear view of what is happening. He blows for the foul almost before the collision - certainly before RvN has returned to earth. He's pointing in the direction of the Man Utd goal indicating a freekick to Arsenal. He's looking directly at the point of contact and his body language says that he's watching for the ball to be spotted and then running downfield in preparation for the free kick.

    At that point he clearly does not see this as a yellow card offence, just a foul.

    But then he sees Vieira's leg shoot out and his demeanor changes instantly. His right hand moves to his top pocket (where his cards are kept) and he immediately runs towards Vieira who's still lieing on the ground. He stares directly at Vieira all the time as he runs towards him. At no time does he look at RvN as he moves away and to his right.

    Bennett's clearly decided at this point to give Vieira a yellow card. My point being that his decision was not caused by RvN's manner it was caused by what he saw as retaliation.

    At this point none of the players are quite sure who the ref is booking. He's clearly going to book someone but no one knows who. They're all looking perplexed and little more than mild jostling is happening at this point. But it's Lehmann who first realises that it's Vieira who's in for the booking (presumably he's been able to see everything from his position 10 yards inside the box).

    He charges out and immediately starts disputing the yellow card with such a vehemence that, when the yellow card comes out, some players and the TV commentator thought it was Lehmann who was being booked.

    But the tv closeup shows that Bennett is clearly looking beyond Lehmann and at Vieira who's now risen and joined the perplexed crowd that's gathered around the collision point.

    After several seconds - could be up to 30 - Vieira realises that the yellow card and the following red card is for him. He loses it! His control goes.

    He sees RvN beyond the crowd of players and makes for him. He knocks Roy Keane out of the way and crashes into the back of Ryan Giggs. The linesman has realised the problem and has shepherded RvN away towards the touchline and only Lehmann seems to notice and follows up his ranting at the ref with a ranting at the linesman. He even pushed the linesman out of the way to get at RvN. He could pay heavily for that.

    Roy Keane grabs Vieira - who was stopped in his tracks by Ryan Giggs' back - and starts to talk sense to him. Roy isn't a stranger to the red mist descending and he knows that Vieira is about to make life much worse for himself unless he calms down. Vieria listens to Keane and then Gary Neville and then Neville walks him off the pitch making sure he doesn't flare up again.

    When things have calmed down Bennett talks with the linesman. After that conversation he goes to RvN and books him - it looked for very much that it was the linesman who saw whatever it was that was due a yellow. It may even be that RvN said something out of line while he was with the linesman or maybe the linesman just decided that there would be greater peace if RvN were yellow carded as he had started the trouble and the ref agreed.

    In the end this was very simple - RvN committed a foul by jumping in on Vieira. Vieira took offence at the foul and motioned as if to kick RvN in retaliation. The ref saw that as a yellow card offence and, following on the first yellow for persistent fouling, a red card.

    The exaggerated "siege mentality" that Wenger has instilled in his players to motivate them has gone too far and they're looking at all disciplinary stuff from refs and the FA itself in a paranoid manner. It's not really their players at fault but the refs and the FA have it in for Arsenal.

    So, in this case, it wasn't Vieira's actions that got him sent off it, was RvN's action in motioning to the ref "what's this all about ref". Another case of being the victims not the cause of the problems. The subsequent behaviour after the final whistle was a continuation of this - another Arsenal player will be disciplined because of RvN's "cheating" - ie appealing to the ref for a judgement on Vieira's action.

    In their response to all this the Arsenal fans are continuing this denial of the disciplinary problems that their team currently suffers.
     
  20. Its only Ray Parlour

    Aug 3, 2003
    London
    At last! A Manc that knows what he's talking about. Credit to you, very good analysis nothing i wish to dispute with you there what so-ever. Your welcome on Bigsoccer-Arsenal board anytime mate, should you so wish.

    Very refreshing to see a someone go against the jingo-istic half-arsed rhetoric that your fellow Manc "fans" often spout.
     
  21. jmpike

    jmpike New Member

    Sep 29, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    Well, well

    1. I wasn't sure if the Ref was ready to give them the free kick! he finally did not?
    2. The history behind all this is that Arsenal have a problem with authority, their history with yellow and red cards is something to be desired.

    Thanks Mate, you really brightened my day!
     
  22. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    Did anyone catch the "English Premier League Preview Show" this week on FSW? Two weeks later, and the incident is still the lead story. They showed the RvN/Viera incident in slo-mo from an angle I hadn't seen before. The ref was pointing free kick for Arsenal, Viera lashed out, RvN goes into theatrics and looks directly back at the official. Only then does he reach for his card.

    I'm not saying Viera's second yellow wasn't warranted: it was as he kicked out. No contact, yellow. With his first yellow (which was a bit dodgy), that equaled dismissal.

    Point is that even if RvN's theatrics played a very minor role in the card, he certainly knew exactly what he was doing when he jumped back as he did. If he wasn't looking to get Viera carded, why would he immediately look to the ref? If he had no bad intentions it seems to me that he would have verbally lashed back at Viera to let him know he wasn't about to let a kicking go unchallenged in some way.
     

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