Manchester United V Arsenal Carling Cup 1/4 Final [R]

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Father Ted, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    While I'm not suggesting you must be blown away by our play this season, we're 5 points on top of the league and have the best goal differential. We've scored 4 goals in each of our last 3 away games, and our home game in that span was a win against the third place side. We qualified from our CL group after 3 games with a +7 goal differential.
    I'm not saying you have to be impressed, but what more would you like us to do?
     
  2. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Fortunately, points aren't given out on your definition of "ordinary".
     
  3. haven

    haven New Member

    Jul 9, 2003
    Boston, MA
    TBH, Arsenal's problem is the same as ours. Take out some of their top players, or let them play at less than 100% (Henry), and they're going to suffer on the pitch.

    Chelski isn't like that. Take out, say, their best 5 players, and you just don't see that much of a difference w/the back-ups.

    I still maintain: both Arsenal and Man Utd have better First XI's than Chelski. But their depth is so incredibly stupendous that I don't think either Arsenal or United can match them over 38 games. I think we've got a better chance in the Champion's League than the EPL.

    And as much as I hate to say it, I'd rather see Arsenal win the league than Chelski. Obviously, rooting for a big club, I've got no problem with money being splashed around. But I do have a problem with one man supplying endless amounts of money, and counting for more than 10s of millions of fans.

    I think Chelski are in for a couple of very, very good years. After that, I'm not certain they'll be able to keep everybody happy. Players do like to errm...play. But that won't be an issue for a while, at least.
     
  4. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I've heard this a lot, and I still don't buy it. It must be a way to compensate for our depth. At which positions are you definitely better? Defense? No. Midfield? No. Strikers? Yeah, OK, I'll give you that one. I'll take Ruud. Although, we only play with one striker (and our main purchase has been out more than half the current season, I might add). But other than that.......I wouldn't really want anyone off your squad to start for ours. Your midfield is aging, and I'd take Duff or Robben over Cronaldo.

    Awww, haven, that hurts. ;)

    We'll take those couple of good years. After that, we'll figure something out. ;) :p
     
  5. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield
    IF he did indeed elbow then he has already been punished with a yellow card. If he had done it again he would have got a red, and been suspended. Those are the rules of the game. What is it with people and their over-zelous need to ban players for a year every time there is an altercation.

    One quote from that article though that I want to comment on is:

    "United boss Sir Alex Ferguson will be infuriated by the FA's decision after he demanded they look into it."

    Alex needs to read "The boy who cried wolf". Seems to me that he finds something to moan about after every match against Arsenal. Sooner or later he WILL have a genuine cause for complaint - but buy that point everyone will have stopped listening to him...

    At the end of the day it was a fair, well played, well fought game for both parties. You got the result you wanted at the end of 90 minutes. Wheres the problem?


    P.S While were on the subject of punishing players outside the rules of the game - a little example if I may

    Vieira spits, first offence: banned 4 games
    Diouf, 3rd offence: banned 3 games

    and people say we have the FA around our little finger cos of Dein...
     
  6. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield
    I think what Haven was getting at is that, with Man Utd and Arsenal, once you get past the first 11 and onto the "bench" players, there is a noticable drop in abilty.

    Chelsea, with its increased roster of players, has "bench" players that are just as good as its first team selection. Therefore, as the season goes on they are less effected by injuries to key players in the same way we are.

    Chelsea doesnt nessisarily have to be playing better football to win the league. As other clubs go on down turns due to injuries Chelsea can continue to plod along, grinding out draws and wins, and steadily increasing its points lead over the rest of the table.

    At least I THINK thats what he was getting at... I might be WAY off :)
     
  7. haven

    haven New Member

    Jul 9, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Just going to address this argument.

    I think that both our attack and defense is better than yours. Your defense (1) has not been deprived of its best player for part of the year and (2) is assisted by an excellent midfield. Put our midfield in your team, and I think your defense looks far more exposed.

    The midfield, particularly central midfield, you're definitely right about. I refuse to argue about Ronaldo with non-United fans, since almost nobody is objective about the guy (including me, probably).
     
  8. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I understand that point by haven. I disagree with his point that United's first XI is better than ours.
     
  9. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I see no reason to suggest our defense is worse than yours. Our third choice CB is better than your 2nd. On his form now, for his club, I don't think Terry is any worse than Rio. Is Neville better than Ferreira? Not on any evidence I've seen. Is Heinze better than Bridge/Gallas? In my opinion, no.
    As for the midfield - we're essentially playing 5 midfielders (Duff and Robben, plus the 3 in the center). That you have 4 good strikers is nice, but we only play with one. And it remains to be seen how good a healthy Drogba is.
     
  10. TxTechGooner

    TxTechGooner we're having fun here, no?

    Feb 24, 2003
    see, why is that haven? how come nobody else see's him as the second coming? how come he hasnt scored a goal this year? from all the talk about the kid, you would think he would be the leading goalscorer in the world!
    crap, i guess you said you wouldnt discuss it..
    oh well~
     
  11. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--

    Alright, thats it... I let one of your posts slide before... but how in hell does an Arsenal fan come to a United board and complain about our manager complaining?

    Firstly Wenger is captain complaint and excuses extraordinaire so worry about that instead of what Fergie had to say.

    Secondly, Managers protect their players, you cannot expect a manager to sit idly by while his players get unfair treatment and there is not the proper response from the ref. That was reddable by every account I've heard from the media thus far (I'm about to watch the torrent of the match now) so SAF had a right to try to make sure punishment is doled out. At least he was honest - he did not lie and fabricate an injury to his player in order to get some kind of action taken ala Wenger.

    I especially love your cried wolf bit... what more must Arsenal do? Assault our players on the pitch check, assault our manager in the tunnel check, elbow a player check, what are we waiting for, for Wenger to reveal that he has weapons of mass destruction?


    Our defense imo is more capable going forward... Gary Neville is one of the most consistent crossers in the prem, Heinze has a goal and set up another just recently while being invovled in several this season already, Silvestre has 2 goals and Gary has scored one, no defender on the planet has skills like Rio, none (most midfielders wish they had his passing skills). Yes I know Terry scored a brace and had one in Europe but aside from him I'm not that impressed. Paulo seems crap to me... to easily bundled off the ball and it always seems to me like he's not sure what he should be doing when he joins the attack. I like Bridge but Heinze is absolutely the best LB in the prem right now if not in the world, tackles very hard and rarely misses, provides decent crosses, excellent in the air, good vision, pace, endurance and has shown incredible instincts. Also, I cannot think of another LB who is intimidating with his tackles. Gallas offers nothing going forward when compared to Heinze and I think defensively Heinze is better at the LB spot.

    If you are going to say that your 3rd CB is better than our 2nd CB you have to allow that 3 of our strikers and possibly 4 are better than your first choice striker, because last I checked you don't play 3 CB's. Also, I think our defence is stronger than yours because our fullbacks take such a large role in attack and Silvestre and Rio are able to hold the fort.

    Midfield - that's got to go to Chlesea right now... Ronaldo is off form, but when he is on form I think our midfield comes close to yours, but even at our best we'd be a little short in that department.

    Lampard is world class, a very good passer and shooter - I would put him as Scholes' equal when they are both on form - they are shockingly similar really both love to volley and work hard, make runs as well as pull the strings, shoot with both feet, try to kill people when they shoot.

    Makalele at this stage has an edge over Keane

    Duff and Robben are very good... when Ronaldo is on form he's better than either of them imo but Giggs even when he plays well is a bit past his prime and is not their equal although still a good player...

    That said - Chelsea has an excellent team lots of depth and loads of talent - but I'd take United over them every time - but I suppose you knew that.
     
  12. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    He's off form for some reason, but take a look at him when he's playing for Portugal - he has bloody cape when he plays for them - he will sort it out soon enough - I'll tell you one thing though - if he never scored a goal, and never scores one again I will still have my clip of Ashley Cole doing a split~ to remember and to watch.
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    You'll pardon me if I don't clevely change your name.

    Yes, consistently bad. GNeville is a terrible crosser.

    I believe Terry has outscored them all, combined. Then there's Gallas. And Bridge does OK going forward, as Arsenal will attest.

    Riiiiight. Give me a break. He's not Nesta.

    Your answer to the best defense in the Premiership is "I'm not impressed with my own incorrect statistics, and our defense is better at attacking". OK.

    Yes, except his teams keep winning, and aside from giving away a penalty after Gallas slipped, he hasn't really done anything that led us to concede a goal this season. He was also named best RB in the CL last year, but aside from that, he's probably crap. Hmmmmmm............

    He's played 7 weeks for you, and already he's maybe the best in the world. Give me a break. Heinze isn't as fast as some other LBs, and I've seen him get burned already in the EPL.

    johno, do you watch our games? I can't take you seriously if you're going to tell me Gallas offers nothing going forward. Who's scored more goals this year? (How you've missed Gallas's runs into the box, I don't know, but as I said - have you been watching our games?)

    Except that's not true. I wouldn't take Smith or Saha over either of our first two strikers.

    Actually, lately we have been. (Gallas isn't really a LB.) But that's OK. Of course, we only play one striker, but you play 2 CBs.

    You're playing Silvestre and you claim your defense is better. ROTFLMAO.

    Lampard is a much, MUCH better tackler than Scholes, and is harder to disposess. At this point, Lampard is a better player than Scholes, as demonstrated not only by Lampard taking Scholes's place off him for England, but also by him nearly winning POTY in the EPL. Lampard is also younger and far less susceptible to injury.

    I'm not going to touch any Ronaldo debates with a ten foot pole.

    That's fine. But saying things like "our defense is better" when you're starting Silvestre and when Wes Brown (for my next trick, I'll get beaten for power AND pace by Alan "crazy legs" Shearer) is your first sub is laughable.
     
  14. TxTechGooner

    TxTechGooner we're having fun here, no?

    Feb 24, 2003
    absolutely agree about his form for Portugal..
    but is ashley cole really that great?? c'mon, even you could "petite pont" him johno right?
     
  15. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield
    I wasn't complaining, merely commenting.

    My opinions and yours will naturally be different. If SAF was quoted as saying "The world is flat" in the Sun tommorow I wouldnt expect a single person here to disagree with him. An extreme analogy I know, but it makes my point.... Your loyal to your club and so of course it seems that Arsenal should be punished. The same would no doubt be true if the shoe was on the other foot.

    I hardly think labelling a food fight as assault is fair. I realise that your own laws are fairly intolerant of humans making any physical contact, but thats not a global view. You do however make an interesting point about assault on the pitch. Its certainly a very murky area to go treading in. How do you differenciate between a yellow and a ban if any "assault" on the pitch is insta ban punishment, which I think is what SAF is requesting of the FA with RVP.

    Is it not unreasonable to conclude that any time a player does not make contact with the ball he has indeed assaulted the player and thus should be suspended. Does this not make the yellow card redundant?

    Of course that is perposterous, but where would you draw the line? The only answer I can consieve is "Intent" but untill we get telepathic referees in the FA this is unfeasable. Fouls can be made to look accidental, and some time the referee isnt paying proper attention and goes in to strong on a situation that was indeed accidental.

    What rule would YOU add to make the overly violent EPL nice and friendly again?
     
  16. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    But an intentional elbow at an opponent is not a yellow card, it's a red card, for Violent Conduct (or Serious Foul Play, perhaps, if the referee wants to declare it that in the match report).

    I'm a little upset by the fact that he then kicked out as well at the back of Richardson's legs, obviously in an attempt to get one last shot in while on the ground (not to play the ball at all) and still didn't get more than a yellow.

    I'm not necessarily saying that the referee was wrong in trying not to give red cards, but to give Richardson and Van Persie equal yellows after that, when Richardson did nothing even remotely equivalent to what Van Persie did is a bit unfair.
     
  17. 50 Euro

    50 Euro Member

    Jul 29, 2003
    Washington, DC
    Point taken, but you must have missed the contentious "Sack Fergie" poll and accompanying thread towards the end of last season. We're quite a diverse bunch on this board ;) .
     
  18. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield
    From what ive read the referee didnt see the elbow, read RVP for a regular foul, and then booked Richardson for lashing out, having not seen the elbow. Its bad officiating no doubt, but referees make mistakes. It sucks but its human nature.

    I think it would be very very dangerous to set a precident that allows Managers to appeal and have a referee descision rendered after the event. In situations like this where the referee has got it wrong. In cases of a foul SAF effectively wants a red card issued. Thats the easy part...

    ...but what happens on a situation like the Rooney penalty in our last game. After the match we can all see no contact was made. Let us imagine for a second that the game ended up 1-1 rather than 2-0. Is Wenger aloud to appeal to the FA to have the goal sticken, thus giving one team 2 points more, whilst removing a point for the other.

    That would of course be farsical, but if your going to start doing things like appealing for bans then you cant just cherry pick the bits that suit you...it has to be equal across all desicions surely?

    Personally I think the press has a lot to answer for these days. I dont remember Managers (and im talking about more than a few here) throwing their handbags around nearly as much as this when I was a kid, and when you look at post match interviews the press ask some blatently leading questions, and then over hype it the next day. This invariably rubs off on anyone stupid enough to believe everything they read, and Im not sure I like the direction its taking the sport in. Its almost reminisant of Parlimentary Dirty Tricks Campaigns
     
  19. TxTechGooner

    TxTechGooner we're having fun here, no?

    Feb 24, 2003

    Didnt Pires intentionally elbow Neville last year? He only got a yellow for it~
     
  20. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic


    Great post.

    The tendancy nowadays is for the losing manager to complain about the winner's tactics and referee decisions. Sometimes even the winner as in this case as with Fergie. I just wish he would just say well done lads, now on to the next game. But he has to complain about the officating but then again we don't know the exact context in which he commented about it. He was probably asked in a post match interview/press conference what he thought of the the Van Persie/Richardson incident.

    As I said before, decisions like this even out over the course of the season, including the Rooney incident in the league game against the arse. I'm sure by the end of the season an opposing team will be award a dubious penalty against United and we'll all be complaining about it when it happens.
     
  21. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield
    Indeed, i dont think there is a reporter alive who is above turning a "Richardson was elbowed, should never have been booked" into "SAF calls for RVP punishment".

    Im generally sceptical about most "quotes" but SAF has been in the media A LOT lately, so you start to take things at face value when its splashed all over the back pages EVERY morning.
     
  22. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    Honestly I don't remember that. My precedent on this matter (other than about 10 years of refereeing) is actually Regina v. Campbell (2003), where the defender in question was sent off for a deliberate elbow to the face of one Ole Gunnar Solksjaer (a Norweigan).

    I do agree with Dave M's posts about the need to avoid excessive use of appeal, though, and that it was a very good post.

    What really kind of surprised me about the Van Persie/Richardson situation is that there was an AR right there on top of the play, as it happened very near his sideline, but he didnt' catch either the elbow or the more obvious kick out (with minimal contact).
     
  23. Dave_M

    Dave_M New Member

    May 25, 2004
    Enfield

    Ive heard it bandied about that AF's get a bollocking from their bosses if they go against a referee's descision. From people Ive spoken too there is a definate feeling that Assitance Referees are there just to wave some flags around. The role of the Linesman being the second eyes of the ref may well be gone.

    Of course it may be just overly paranoid conspiracy theory, but ive heard it mentioned more and more of late, and im noticing more and more AF's in prime positions to overturn a bad refereee descision do absoloutly nothing.
     
  24. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    oh well

    well, i guess we will disagree on that one, i will say though that there are alot of neville haters out there.

    You believe? Hey, im no guru but I tried to put numbers on there... if u are going to call my stats crap then give me yours!

    Bellion has 4 goals in 2 starts this season, better ratio than most strikers in the EPL, do u think he is a top striker? Obviously Eidur, not because he has more goals, but because he just is a better player going forward (also because he has more goals) Terry has scored off corners, he has never hit a nice set piece or went screaming down the wing or hit a shot from build up... that's what i was refering too... I will admit though that Terry is excellent in the air and one of the best at getting onto corners.

    that's right, he's better. I'm talking about skills going forward, Nesta might have been more cavalier in the past but nowadays he aint as silky smooth as Rio.

    and he could not get off the bench for Portugal... lets not use past competitions. I just don't think he brings as much as Gary - in the air, tackling or crossing, but a less biased person might say they are even.

    Did I say he was the fastest LB? nope, but all around package baby.. how many LB's you know can attack as well as he does and defend as well as he does? Gio is great going forward but a lightweight in defense... Lahm is wonderful going forward from the little i've seen. Bridge is well balanced, but a step behind in attack and defense when compared to Heinze and that's the original discussion anyway.

    I take it u've not seen us play much this year either if u can even compare Bridge and Gallas to him.

    You are right, it was hyperbole.

    ....................

    the sum of the parts my friend... the sum of the parts.

    fine, Scholes shoots better from distance and makes much, MUCH better runs and is a better header of the ball.

    we've conceded 5 goals since Rio's comeback. In that period u've conceded just 4... pretty even in my sight and we played Arsenal, Pool (healthy) and Newcastle
     
  25. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Terry has scored two in the league and 3 in the CL.

    Better at going forward as a CB? Who cares! And I don't know if you remember Terry making a run all the way into Fulham or Blackburn's penalty area and putting the ball a bit wide all the way from CB? He used to be a striker, you know.

    Not true. He starts now.

    You mean like last year's CL? Why in the world not???

    Heinze is still unproven as an EPL LB. Remember, two years ago you'd have said the same thing about O'Shea.

    Gallas spends a lot of time in the opponent's half. I've watched your games too.

    Any sum that includes Silvestre as the starting CB is less than ours. Period.

    Scholes doess NOT make better runs and is most certainly NOT a better heard of the ball. Come on johno, where is this coming from? Scholes a better header? What was the last contested header you can think of that Scholes scored on? The tap in last week? The goal against Croatia? Give me a break. Lampard's better in the air, and his runs are certainly no worse than Scholes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to admit that with age, Scholes has been passed by Lampard.

    And we've also played Newcastle, to whom we conceded no goals (League Cup against their A side), we also played a healthier Liverpool (Baros, Cisse and Garcia), we played Bolton who drew with you, and more importantly, we've only lost once in the EPL, and have allowed more than one goal scored against us in one game all season in all competitions. Fener scored two against you at home!
     

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