Interesting debates can be had for specific manager's best eleven.. I will start with Guardiola's: Neuer Dani Alves Kompany Dias Abidal Busquets Xavi Iniesta Messi Lewandowski Ribery 2nd team: Ederson Kimmich Hummels Puyol Cancelo Fernandinho De Bruyne David Silva Robben Ibrahimović Villa What do you think?
Great outfield players managed by Carlo ancelotti in no particular order of greatness Cristiano Ronaldo(Real Madrid) Zinedine Zidane(Juventus) Luca Modric(Real Madrid) Ricardo Kaka(Milan) Alessandro Del piero(juventus) Paolo Maldini(Milan) Ronaldo nazario(Milan) Ronaldinho(Milan) Allesandro Nesta(Milan) Zlatan ibrahimovic(PSG) Andrea Pirlo (Milan) Andriy Shevchenco(Milan) Arjen Robben(Bayern Munich) Franck Ribery(Bayern Munich) Clarence Seedorf(Milan) Frank Lampard(Chelsea) Sergio Ramos (Real Madrid) Karim Benzema(Real Madrid) Gareth Bale(Real Madrid) Didier drogba(Chelsea) Ashley Cole(Chelsea) Toni Kroos(Real Madrid) John Terry(Chelsea) Phillip Lahm(Bayern munich) Casimiero(Real Madrid) Gattuso(Milan) ATG goalkeepers managed by Carlo ancelotti Manuel neuer(Bayern) Gigi Buffon(Parma) Peter cech(Chelsea) Iker cassilas(Real Madrid) Played with Marco Van basten(Milan) Roberto Baggio(Italy) Ruud Gullit(Milan) Falcao(Roma) Franco Baresi(Milan) Frank Riijkard(Milan) Paolo Maldini(Milan) Bruno Conti(Roma) Played against Pele(friendly) Diego Maradona(napoli) Michel Platini(juventus) Zico(udinese) Micheal laudrup(lazio) Romario(PSV) Don Carlo is really the boss of all bosses
The list is a lot bigger than this (one might even ignore arguable imposters like Pickford or Joe Cole). I also don't understand why you leave out Courtois or VdS among the great goalkeepers (somehow, the latter had the most ESM votes and inclusions in 2010-11 but then Victor Valdes was in the ESM team of the year ). If you take The Independent their top 100 players of this century list (which I don't really like; no countryman is higher than place 30), you see how many Ancelotti has managed. You get something like 30%? The main ones you miss out is the Barcelona clique, and Manchester United (but more of the main stars there also went to other clubs for a chunk of their career). https://www.transfermarkt.com/carlo-ancelotti/eingesetzteSpieler/trainer/523 He has even managed someone as Aubameyang briefly. Or Rivaldo. Davids. Redondo... Also Everton has a few useful ones, or ones who might become useful (Richarlison). Kaladze... Jankulovski... The word is overused but it's truly "incredible".
Ancelotti was also assistant of the Italian national team. Include that and you get people as Baresi, Baggio etc
I think it’s hard to compare WhoScored ratings of players with very different positions/roles. KDB has a much more attacking role than Iniesta did. Not that Iniesta was a defensive midfielder—he certainly wasn’t—but he wasn’t an attacking midfielder tasked with very often making the final ball and surging into the box for goals in the same way that KDB is. So KDB has more output in terms of goals and assists, and that naturally leads to higher scores. Of course, there are reasons for those different roles. One is that Barcelona had Messi to score and make final balls, so there was less need of that from the midfielders. But those reasons also include that KDB is better at scoring and IMO better at the final ball than Iniesta (though Iniesta was great too—I just think KDB is arguably-GOAT tier at it). Meanwhile, though, Iniesta is better at advancing the ball with dribbling, short passing, keeping possession through pressure, etc. So I think they’re both better at their roles than the other one would be. It’s just that KDB’s role happens to be one that I think systematically gets higher scores. Anyways, in terms of the midfield in Guardiola’s best XI, I think it depends on whether you are wanting to just list the best midfielders that have played for him, or are trying to create a midfield that would actually function well together. If you’re trying to create a functional midfield, then it would have to be Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets, but if you just are listing the best players, then KDB goes in over Busquets.
For iniesta you have to combine different portions of different seasons to make a legendary peak I would say the dribbling of iniesta 2010/11 The final ball ability of iniesta 2012/13 The tackling of iniesta 2015/16 The scoring/finishing of iniesta 2010/11 Combined in one player would make a good challenge for KDB Otherwise I don't see it Iniesta has him beat in number of la croqueta moves though and some fake MOTM awards in the 2014/15 CL final or the 2010 WC final. KDB will likely never overcome that
I think they’re just very different players. In any event, Iniesta is, at the moment at least, undeniably the “greater” player, in the sense of career achievements, coming through in big matches, etc. But I regard KDB so highly that I think it’d be perfectly reasonable to think he is the “better” player. But the reality is that the comparison mostly just depends on what you value most, since they both have certain aspects of the game that they are clearly far ahead of the other in. I don’t think Iniesta was meaningfully different/better of a player in dribbling/scoring/passing/tackling in the years you mention compared to other years, by the way. I think you just went to WhoScored and looked up what years he had his most dribbles, most assists, most tackles, and most goals. But there’s a significant dose of randomness year-to-year in stats like that, because football just has a large randomness element and one season isn’t a huge sample size, and also players’ roles differ across seasons (which can often greatly affect the stats they end up with, even if their underlying skill stays the same). Iniesta certainly did have some seasons where he was better than others, but I think you’re mostly just pointing to statistical randomness when it comes to labeling Iniesta as having been meaningfully better at certain things in specific years compared to all others.
Statistical randomness like how iniesta was the worst rated player in his own team when Barcelona won the 2014/15 treble Barcelona players ranked above iniesta Lionel Messi Neymar Luis Suárez Marc Bartra Gerard Piqué Dani Alves Sergio Busquets Jordi Alba Jeremy Mathieu Javier Mascherano Ivan Rakitic Adriano Xavi Martín Montoya Andrés Iniesta https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/Archive/Spain-Barcelona?stageId=11810 15th best on his own team=9th best in Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_Ballon_d'Or KDB can't compete against this mythology no matter what he does
Iniesta wasn’t particularly good that season and struggled with injuries. But he also played a bit of a different role than normal that year. His role was much more about recycling possession and getting it to the forwards for them to do their thing (makes sense as a tactic when you have Messi, Neymar, and Suarez as your forwards), rather than him being used as the difference maker. You can see that in terms of how there was actually a pretty steep drop in his dribbles per game in that year (extending until Neymar left), for instance (which could in theory be statistical randomness, but is actually consistent with having a legitimately changed role). Not the type of role that yields high WhoScored ratings. But it’s also just true that Iniesta wasn’t in form in 2014-2015. He had a really good CL finals, but it was otherwise a pretty forgettable season. Of course, that season is legitimately irrelevant to this thread in any event, since he wasn’t playing for Guardiola then.
I think the topic exercise would be to compare KDB coached by Guardiola and Iniesta coached by Guardiola. So it makes no sense to compare Iniesta at the end of his career coached by Luis Enrique. Who do you think was the best player? Guardiola's Iniesta or Guardiola's De Bruyne?
Your point about him participating more directly in goal/assist makes sense. As it is a very objective list based on ratings, and goals and assists are the things that weigh the most, it makes sense that the rating be bigger. But I think as a player in general Iniesta was better than KDB.
Sir Alex Ferguson's: Van der Sar Neville Vidic Rio Irwin Beckham Scholes Giggs Cristiano Rooney van Nistelrooy Arsene Wenger's: Lehman Lauren Campbell Mertesacker Cole Ljungberg Vieira Fabregas Pires Henry van Persie
Mourinho's: Casillas Maicon Sergio Ramos Terry Marcelo Xabi Alonso Lampard Özil Di Maria Benzema Cristiano Ronaldo Guardiola's: Neuer Dani Alves Ruben Dias Alaba Cancelo Xavi Iniesta KDB Messi Lewandowski Sterling Ancelotti's: Courtois Cafu Nesta Sergio Ramos Maldini Pirlo Di Maria Modrić Kaká Cristiano Ronaldo Benzema
Are we talking about an XI of the best players to play under a manager, or just the players that performed best under the manager? So, with Wenger, should we include Weah and Thuram for his time in Monaco?
I made my lists based on how they played coached by the coach. But it doesn't seem clear from the author's description of the topic
I think with these it's natural I'd err towards earlier players (due to our ages and viewing experiences) mate. I'd say Schmeichel in goal, though Van der Sar did do really well at Man Utd, and was for sure a calmer and I'd say more reliable type of goalie to be fair. Personally I think it'd probably have to be Stam instead of Vidic (and maybe I even consider Pallister otherwise; Stam and Paillister is maybe an option too but I think I'd keep Rio Ferdinand in and put him as right CB actually). I guess Keane for Giggs, unless thinking 4-3-3 could be ok and then maybe Scholes could come out instead (or maybe he wouldn't, and Giggs would move further up the pitch...as otherwise for a second wing forward maybe I think it'd be Kanchelskis on the right, though it could be argued Rooney or Cantona from the left maybe...but anyway Cantona would go in for me so Van Nistelrooy or Rooney would have to come out). For the Wenger team I think Seaman in goal, and maybe Kolo Toure as right CB (otherwise Adams as one of the centre backs - for Toure or even Campbell given we're talking post Tottenham form...but probably not). Mertesacker out anyway I think to be honest. Fabregas did really well at Arsenal, although maybe peaked as an outright AM, almost akin to a second striker albeit not playing as such. Hoddle (at Monaco), Stojkovic (in Japan) and Scifo (at Monaco) were probably given quite a bit of freedom too, but I think they (possibly in that order) would be in mind for the creative midfield slot. Weah did already show some great glimpses of brilliance at Monaco I think, but for sure I'd have Bergkamp in anyway (so Van Persie would have to drop out). EDIT - Actuallly I made the post a bit quick: Amoros for RB or LB in the Wenger team I think (probably RB), and another Monaco player Battistion might be the one I'd put in rather than Kolo Toure (or Adams) as CB or sweeper. Maybe it could even be Battistion at RB and Amoros at LB though: but in his Monaco time Battiston played as sweeper, and I guess poet would be more sure about it than me but Arsenal-version Ashley Cole possibly has too much of a case as LB to be left out (and it was going to be the right where I was most uncertain on the choice for an Arsenal player). Ferguson managed Aberdeen successfully too of course, but I think it's harder to see any of their players in the XI ahead of Man Utd options really (as compared to Wenger's Monaco options getting in). Although Ferguson was also the Scottish NT boss for the 1986 World Cup actually 1986 FIFA World Cup squads - Wikipedia I'm not sure any of the options would be enough in their peak periods in that squad, even if not considering the longevity factor though (otherwise personally I could give McStay a chance vs Scholes for example in midfield as the more attacking partner...maybe)
Hi mate, my criteria when choosing were mainly peak performance under the manager. So what they did without the manager I didn't take into account. That said, I once did a study and saw that Van der Sar had the highest save% in ucl history in the modern era in 07/08, this taking more shots on target than any of the greats like Cech, Buffon, Neuer, Casillas, etc... I don't know if Schmeichel peaked that high. I also think that Vidic had a higher peak (2008-2011) than Stam in any particular period. I must also say that the teams I chose were not made to work, but to be an "all time XI from manager x" and I can't take out Giggs, Scholes, Beckham or Ronaldo for Keane. But I understand your point of putting a #6 for the team to work. I opted for the 4-4-2 because that was the formation most used by Fergie. For the Wenger players I suppose none of them were at their peak in Monaco. Maybe what I saw of Seaman wasn't enough although I saw probably his main games at Arsenal against United and other Big Six teams but Lehman I saw a lot more and I thought better. But as you said, our age difference can contribute to this difference in the evaluation of modern players with those of the past. I do not discount your choices in any way. I think Bergkamp's peak was at Ajax. He still played really well at Arsenal, but I think at Ajax he went a notch higher. As opposed to Van Persie who had his peak at Arsenal. As we are talking about the players as coached by the manager, I think van Persie's peak under Wenger was higher (not by much) than Bergkamp's peak under Wenger. Again I may not have seen enough. I mostly watched the big games because I'm not an Arsenal fan. But from what I saw, I thought van Persie was better in his prime under Wenger. If it was Bergkamp at Ajax then I don't think there's even a discussion.
Yeah, like you say the age makes a difference (not to say you'd change your calls to mine in every case if you were older....or alternatively I'd change mine to yours without nostalgia factor or whatever lol!). I think mid to late 90s period was the best for Seaman and Bergkamp for example (with Bergkamp though it'd be arguable whether he was a better player around then as compared to at Ajax - for sure he'd lost a bit of speed already I think but he had also developed on the creative side, not to say he wasn't good on that side already). It's a good question about whether any of those players peaked at Monaco under Wenger (my inclination with Hoddle is maybe not quite, albeit here he does say he was fitter than ever; Amoros I think may have been in or around his peak in general and Battiston might have been in his best phase as central defender, generally speaking, but would have been more capable playing right back when younger possibly....but of course I haven't seen much of Monaco games from that time - maybe @wm442433 or @babaorum would have some insights) Arsene Wenger’s Monaco – Holding Midfield Here is one about his time in Japan (referring to Stojkovic, with a video about his assists) too Big in Japan: Wenger in the J-League | The 90s Football Party (wordpress.com) Hoddle talks about Battiston here, just after 1 minute (not including Amoros actually, although he mentions him IIRC) Glenn Hoddle - #OnetoEleven | Video | Watch TV Show | Sky Sports Amoros is the one combining with Hoddle here though anyway (the number 2) @forgottengoals on Twitter: "Glenn Hoddle for Monaco. Had never seen this before. Brilliant https://t.co/T5yHezjR90" / Twitter There isn't one for 96/97 though. I think as a playmaker, and player who knits things together he's much better than Van Persie. As a scorer it's a different case maybe, although he was pretty good (and capable of brilliant ones of course) at that too. For sure he was a top player in 1992 though
Lol. I forgot about Alaba.. those team make no tactical sense. De Bruyne is redundant with Messi on the pitch and Xavi and de Bruyne cant hold midfield alone with 4 offensive minded wingers / attackers. The same applies to Ancelottis XI with thiago and lampard next to Bale and Cristiano And Drogba is never making the list if whoscored had ratings for seasons prior to 2009/10 season. Ancelotti himself went for Pirlo Modrić Lampard Kaka Midfield and i would agree: In attack I would simple add BBC. They work together. Or just Benzema and Cristiano
You underrate Drogba under mourinho Drogba in 2006/07 was voted in the ESM team of the month 5 times Andres iniesta under Pep 2008/09 - 2011/12 Was voted in the ESM team of the month 6 times(4 seasons) https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Andrés_Iniesta Drogba with lampards penalties would be viewed entirely different in this generation. I'd take his peak above Karim Benzema but ultimately it doesn't matter as Shevchenco for me Is the best CF ancelotti had Btw That ancelotti handpicked midfield you referenced is lethal That team doesn't even need a striker IMO