man city vs. Groclin [R]

Greater surprises were:

Sporting (Portugal) 0 Genclerbirligi (Turkey) 3 [1-4]

Sochaux 4 - Dortmund 0 [6-2]

Teplice (Czech Rep.) 1 - Feyenoord 1 [3-1]

Brondby (Denmark) 2 - Shalke 04 1 [3-3] [Brondby in pk]

 

eastern europe is catching up with western europe

 

They were always up there. After the Berlin wall fall, for almost a decade, their football went thru a transition, where, with the exception of Rumania, showed a downturn.

They are back as strong as before lately.

 

Well, that's really simple. It's like saying that the only difference between Ronaldo and me is that he has more talent and better training...

Eastern Europe? I hate to say it. When was the last time an Eastern European (old Soviet Bloc) team reaching the knock-out stage of the CL?

1999 Dynamo Kiev

It means out the past 40 teams in the CL knock-out stage, only 1 was from the Warsaw Pact. And that's not behind?

THAT IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY BEHIND!!!!

As a matter of fact, the gap between Eastern and Western Europe club football is getting bigger and bigger. This is also illustrated by the number of teams reaching the CL group stage (only 3-4 out of 32 each year).

As a matter of fact, since the CL started its current format (32 teams) in 1999-2000, there has been no Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian teams in it, let alone the new republics like Latvia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Slovakia, Bosnia, Macedonia, etc. The only constant presences are from Czech Rep., Russia and Ukraine.

 

Best players were bought in a changing economy in the Eastern European countries.

The amount of rechange for the exodus weakened the clubs in those countries. Red Star is an example of this.

Now, the local leagues are readapting, that's why you see a few results like today's. Eastern Europe will get to the level of Dutch club football, where their stars will be bought as soon as they shine.

 

In the past 5-6 years, how many times have R. Madrid been outplayed by an Eastern bloc team?
And how many times have R. Madrid outplay the Eastern bloc teams?

For starter, if your "no money" team from Poland consistently outplay the 6 aces at Real Madrid, what would be the outcome?

They would be looted by Real Madrid!!!

How many **cash strapped** leagues can consistently produce great talents, looted by G14, yet still consistently produce teams that can compete with G14?

Look no further than the Dutch and Argentinian leagues...

 

The Dutch clubs are not overachieving in Europe. Their position in UEFA’s rankings is almost the same as their position in the biggest European economies list.

Russian clubs are the one to watch in the future. After recovering from the economic crisis in the late nineties, they now have money. They are starting to control the eastern European market, signing national team starters from countries like the Czech republic, Croatia, Serbia, as well as Africans and S.Americans, and now they are bringing in celebrated foreign coaches.

 

If it's that easy, how come you still haven't been able to cite an Eastern European team (other than Dynamo Kiev in 1999) in the knockout stage of the CL in the past 5 years?

Real Madrid can easily be outplayed by any team? That's possible. That team may be Juventus, Milan, Bayern Munich, or Man U. None of them are from Eastern Europe. And the last Eastern European team outplaying Real Madrid might have been one with Schevchenko and Rebrov. Guess why Dynamo's good run ended in 1999.

 

Rangers,

Have you figured out what was the economic situation of Football Federations and clubs in Eastern Europe in the 90's?

Add that every promising player was bought by Western countries. The European Community players were treated as nationals. Further stripping Eastern European countries from their stars, as well as South America and Africa.

This decade will bring the standard of professional football in Eastern Europe. We are starting to see it.

You are right with Dynamo Kiev. We should see more stories like this in the next few years.

 

I personally don't think that these recent successes of the Eastern European teams shows and significant shift in the power relation. I rather think that this is an anomaly, caused by the weak world-wide economy and hence the weak transfer market.

Basically, in the past (where clubs had money), any promising starlets would soon be snapped up as soon as they showed any talent. Nowadays, with the tought transfer market and shortage of money in the west, teams are much more likely to wait for a proven player before "betting" their money. Hence, there exists an opportunity for teams like Wisla last year and Groclin this year to gather up a small group of these starlets, (Kosowski, Uche, Zurawski, Szymkowiak, Glowacki at Wisla, and Mila, Zajac, Rasiak, Niedzielan at Groclin), and have these starlets stay together for some time after their talent is proven (in the local league). This additional time lets them develop their skills, gel together as a team, and as a result we see strong Western teams like Parma, Schalke, Hertha, ManCity, and Feyenoord get eliminated.

Once the economy gets back to previous levels (whenever that happens), then players like Mila will be exported much earlier in their careers and teams like Groclin won't be able to surprise western teams.

Basically, the success of any team from the weaker markets (like Dynamo a while ago, RedStar in the early 90's, and on a smaller scale Wisla, Groclin and Teplice is due to the a core of very talented young players - there is a delay between when a young talent develops international-class skills, and when this information reaches western clubs. It is during the time of this delay that the "poor" clubs get their good results. This has been and will be happening forever. All I think is happening currently is that this delay is slightly larger, allowing more such clubs than usually.

 

Not at all.

It's not as simple as the economy.

Even if Russia and Ukraine had drastically improved their economies, do you think they could have commanded the type of money that EPL/La Liga/Serie A commanded? that these leagues would have attracted the Ronaldos, Beckhams, RVNs, Zidanes, Henrys, Nedveds?

"Coming to TyC Sports this Saturday, it's Spartak Moscow vs Locomotive Moscow, featuring Crespo, Kaka, Samuel, RVN versus Rivaldo, Lucio, Pizzaro, Raul, and Makelee, don't miss it".

Somehow this is just not a realistic picture. Eastern European leagues simply can't get big-time. There are lots of cultural and historical reasons for that. If you want to convince me otherwise, you just have to show me more than Steaua Bucharest of 1986 and Red Star Belgrade of 1991...

We "should" according to what evidence? The heyday of Dynamo Kiev was 1975-77, a CWC triumph, a QF loss in the European Cup to St. Etienne, and a SF loss in the EC to Borussia Moenchengladbach, while using the whole club to represent the USSR, lost (as favorites) to Czechoslovakia in the QF of the 1976 European Championship. This era was capped by Oleg Blokhin's 1975 European player of the year.

Actually, in March 1976, I was very impressed by Dynamo Kiev, when they had the sight on both the European Cup and the European Championship, the first time that has ever happened. It was a historical happening. Unfortunately, they crashed out in the European Cup in March, and then in the European Championship in April.

While the heydays of Ajax was 3 successive European Cups, ditto to Bayern Munich, the heyday of Real Madrid was 5 successive European Cups, the heyday of Liverpool was 4 Cups in 8 years...

So your camp's argument is simply based on something that has never happened before?

 

I agree, the money is not the only thing, cultural reasons will make it difficult for Russian clubs to sign the top south Americans. But they can still form strong squads.
1) They have enough money to hold on to all Russian players
2) They can find a lot of good players in the Slavic eastern Europe who will be willing to move to Russia. That is already happening.
3) They can sign quality Africans. One of Lokomotiv’s best players in the CL has been a south African left wing-back

 

Let's not get carried away here.

The recent ***SUCCESSES*** of the Eastern European teams? where? You don't mean some triumphs in the 2nd round of the UEFA Cup, do you?

In the 4 years of the 32-team Champions League, these are the tally of the Eastern European teams:

reached group stage:
03-04: 4 (Locomotive, Dynamo, Spartak Praha, Partizan Belgrade)
02-03: 3 (Spartak Moskow, Dynamo, Locomotive)
01-02: 4 (Locomotive, Dynamo, Spartak Moscow & Praha)
00-01: 4 (Spartak Moscow & Praha, Dynamo, Shakhtar Donetsk)
99-00: 5 (Maribor, Dynamo, Spartak Moscow & Praha, Croatia Zagreb)

countries that had representatives in the knock-out stage (QF):
02-03: Italy 3, Spain 3, Eng 1, Hol 1
01-02: Spain 3, Ger 2, Eng 2, Greece 1
00-01: Eng 3, Spain 3, Ger 1, Turk 1
99-00: Eng 2, Spain 3, Port 1, Germ 1, Ita 1

There are three standouts from Eastern Europe:
Dynamo (5 appearances), Spartak Mosow (4), and Spartak Praha (4). Yet even if they are standouts among Eastern European teams, their achievement as compared to the English, Spanish and German teams are nothing to write home about. In other words, they are elite among Eastern Europe, but so-so in the whole Europe.

Among the 32 QF berths, this is the distribution:

Spain 12, Eng 8, Germany 4, Italy 4.

That accounted for 28 of the 32 berths. The spot appearances of Greece, Portugal, Turkey and Holland really didn't tell much about these leagues. I'll say it's more luck than anything.

Yet the Eastern European leagues still have a long way to go. If one of them could get 1 QF appearance in the next 4 years, then it would have matched the level of Greece, Portugal, Turkey or Holland.

What's the chance of one Eastern European league getting 4 quarter-finalists in 4 years?

 

just a recent Success:
since 1985 (Videoton in UEFA cup final) there was no Hungarian team in an european cup after the winter, now there is one (DVSC - Debrecen)

from our point of wiev it is a success.

(my ponit is that not only winning the champions league means success)

 

no suprise that man city didnt last long in the uefa cup.You dont expect a keegan managed team to last very long in any competition.

 

Rangers,


What I am trying to point out is not the ability of Eastern European countries to compete for the op players with $$. Hell, maybe you get a Roman Abramovich to invest in Lokomotiv or Spartak or Partizan or Steau or Red Star or ...

My point was that Eastern Europe was financially torn apart. Their leagues were affected by this.

Add to it the law in the nineties about communitary players. This alone meant that the strongest clubs in Europe could go and buy players from outside the EC. Mainly South America, Africa and Eastern Europe.

Hertha Berlin is a great example. They joined the Bundesliga, and were successful because there were $$ in the league, which in turn strengthened their ability.

A totally different scenario in Rumania, Yougoslavia, Croatia, and the ex-Soviet republics.

Teams from those countries will gradually become more competitive as their leagues gain financial strength. And this is possible only with a healthy local economy. For increased attendance and for sponsorship $$.