Or we could credit them for not holding him hostage when they didn’t—at the time anyway—have any obvious role for him.
Not argumentative I don’t think, just addressing about 50 earlier pages of this thread. Nothing ironic about the best development league in the world consistently developing the best players, imho. Those who correctly rate the Eriedivisie correctly evaluated Tillman all along, those who didn’t didn’t. I’ll leave it at that.
I don't think their defenses are crappy they just play more offensively which means defenders are on islands a lot. I think this actually helps them as they learn to be really good one on one defenders and once they go to leagues who play more defensive they stand out when finally getting help. It's a great league for players to learn how to play instead of just playing safely.
Really good post. I love the Eredivisie as a one to two year development post for young footballers... those that fail to impress tend to stagnate or disappear but those that do well often find themselves playing integral minutes in top 5 leagues. And yeah... more specifically I think FBs get a very good education here. Like the Dutch NT, FBs are expected to defend one-v-one and contribute to the attack.... so the young players that prove it here are often hot commodities on the top-5 league market.
Does that apply to Jozy’s lack of success outside of Holland? What about Dest not making it at Barca; did the Barca scouts correctly or incorrectly evaluate the Ered? Heck, Tillman is the most expensive player in Leverkusen history. He hasn’t played like it yet. Plus if it’s the best developmental league in the world, how come France has a great team and also supplied dozens of players for other nations at the World Cup?
The Eredivisie is a 2nd tier league. As with any 2nd tier league, some players will successfully transition to the top tier. Most won't. The good scouts and front offices in the top tiers tend to be more successful in identifying who can succeed.
Also-- by national birthplace, the number of players in the 2026 World Cup France: 98 Netherlands: 67 England: 49 Germany: 48 Spain: 36 Belgium: 36 France has 4x the population of the Netherlands.
Knowing how to properly evaluate the Eriedivisie definitely applies to Jozy, Pepi, Dest and any other player in that league. Scouts know how to weight it, but I’m not talking about scouts, I’m talking about BS posters lol. Do French players not come through the Eriedivisie as well? How many Dutch players and Eriedivisie products were also all over other World Cup rosters as well, ours, Morocco, etc. Plenty of other leagues are great for developing players and some come and go from time to time, Eriedivisie track record speaks for itself. Eriedivisie is disproportionately maligned on here and by US media, because it’s often the measuring stick for MLS. Yes offensive statistics are inflated in the Eriedivisie, so it takes some familiarity and discernment to evaluate players playing there. So you think Tillman was a bad investment for Leverkusen and overrated because of the Eriedivisie still?
League 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 Allsvenskan (Sweden) 2.81 2.66 2.76 2.78 2.83 2.93 3.15 Bundesliga (Germany) 3.04 3.11 3.18 3.22 3.14 3.22 - Bundesliga (Austria) 3.06 2.89 2.96 2.58 2.77 2.70 - Czech Liga (Czech-Republic) 2.69 2.79 2.94 2.84 2.64 2.64 - Ekstraklasa (Poland) 2.45 2.67 2.47 2.69 2.71 2.74 - Eredivisie (Netherlands) 3.01 2.89 3.04 3.28 2.97 3.18 - People need to calm down with the "Dutch league is all offense and no defense" ramblings. There are more goals per game in Germany than Holland.
Yes, but if Curacao doesn't qualify for the next World Cup, that number gets cut in half. Most of the French comparables were likely to qualify even with 32.
67 minus the 25 Curacao players leaves 42 players. Again, France has about 4x the population of the Netherlands. Bottom line, Holland is a top developer of talent. Maybe the very best.
Bigger picture, the Eredivisie is a strong developmental league. There is little doubt that it is a high scoring league and that many of the defenses in the league are not very good. The fact that strong defenders have come out of it is pretty irrelevant -- they are a small percentage of the total defenders and very quickly end up on the better teams. Meanwhile, a good half of the league is not very good at all, especially compared to the teams Tillman was on. I have never been an anti-Tillman guy, and many of the takes were weirdly decisive. But I'm not sure why we can't really just follow this as it went. His g+a/90 at PSV were at .85; at Leverkusen, they've dropped to under .40; which actually is not ideal for a team that bought him as an offensive focal point. The dropoff was predictable. It also didn't mean he was a bad player -- just that the role that Leverkusen put for him isn't really his and the expectations placed on him -- $40M transfer right after losing Wirtz -- were simply unreasonable. Likewise, the takes writing him off for the US were never right. But also, he clearly struggled for quite a long time for the US until Pochettino really challenged his work rate and intensity last summer. And he came through. The stronger work rate and focus combined with the skills most of us could see is a great combo. This shift to more of an 8 role seems to suit him as well -- I think even more in terms of mindset than even skillset. He's been great this World Cup, and I do think a lot of this is about confidence for him -- he's not a naturally assertive personality, and you can see him grow into confidence.
Like so many discussions a lot of different aspects and viewpoints get tangled together. The Eriedivisie is a better league than commonly perceived on here. Tillman was a better player than commonly perceived on here. Those two things are distinct, but related. Poch and his staff are far superior evaluators and deployers of talent than any of the others we’ve had. They correctly assessed Tillman and how to utilize him.
Tillman's numbers have been lower in the B1, but he has also been playing in a different system. He's not a wide attacker, which he has mostly been playing in Leverkusen's 3421.
Remember, Leverkusen acquired Tillman when Ten Haag had been coach. Starting at CAM in 4231, Tillman started 1 game and scored a goal. Ten Haag then got fired. The new coach switched to 3421.
Tillman does not play as a wide attacker for Leverkusen. Their wide attackers are their wing backs Grimaldo and Poku/Arthur/Culbreath. Their manager tried to play Malik as a support striker and wanted him to make late/secondary runs into the box as a striker; Just not Malik's game, he is not any kind of a striker. The good news; Hjulmand has been sacked and replaced by Martinez who was McKenzie's manager at Tolouse. They have sold Grimaldo to Athletico Madrid and have bough a couple of young wingers. Martinez is a 3-4-2-1 guy but is much more of a counter-presser fast transition manager which suits Malik's style. We will see if Till now decides to stay at Leverkusen with the change in manager.
It's a 10/wide position in 3421. Tillman has reportedly requested a transfer. Hopefully, he moves to a team that plays him in a role that suits him. https://readliverpoolfc.com/news/liverpool-preparing-major-move-for-malik-tillman/ https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/malik-tillman-considers-leverkusen-exit-064000941.html
Don't dismiss the effect ALonso leaving, dismantling the first team and the new manager lasting only 3 competitive matches had on Leverkusen. I'm sure more players than Tilman had sub-par seasons.
Wasn’t sharp tonight but he fought and got a goal. We need to expand capacity at our German factory because the stuff we’re producing at home is unreliable as hell.
Turns out he is the last one to question about heart, fight, grit, give a shit, aggression or toughness, particularly when it actually matters. Who knew?
Thanks for the awesome set piece goals, sorry the rest of your team wasnt really up for it except for Balogun