Sure ... my point is that simply being a Big 5 player is not necessarily good enough to start for the US or "raise our ceiling." I feel like I've become the anti-Tillman guy on here, which is ironic, because I was one of his bigger supporters after his first couple of terrible games. But I'm not. I see a lot of skills. I think the guy is a good player who can be very productive in the right spots. What I am anti is the absurd hype machine disconnect between what people think is super impressive at club and what happens on the field for the US. Tillman isn't unique -- we go through this with much of the roster. Why are Tillman, Scally, Johnny, CCV, Richards, McKenzie, etc., etc. less impressive than people expect them to be based on usually very high level analysis of the player (such as "Bundesliga starter" or "his coach praised him in the press.") The only answer about half the posters ever seems to have is "The coach makes them worse" -- hell, notice that most poster don't even try to answer the question. The reality is that holding your own, even in Champions League, is simply not as impressive as people think it is. That fit and situation are really important for most of the pool, and we only have a few guys who are basically good, period. That the talent gap between leagues is not a gap, but an overlap. If Tillman goes to a lower level Bundesliga team, he's not going to produce like this at all, and people are going to say service, etc., which is both right and wrong. Of course, if PSV is really holding out for big money, he won't go there. But I doubt he goes anywhere, because what teams can pay $50M -- or even $30M for Malik Tillman and is he starting there? In Germany, that's 2 teams. I really can't see Bayern pulling the trigger. The other is Dortmund. That seems a steep price for them. France seems out. England has more teams that can pay. Maybe a scattered few in Italy and Spain. There's teams that may hit that intersection. Not a ton of them, though. And of course, he's 22. So he can improve. I'd like to see him become more assertive -- I think the big gap between the US and PSV for him is that. We don't have a machine to be a cog in.
The question becomes where. The standard for a CAM is so much higher at the level that PSV's price tag is putting him at. Luckily for Malik, he has the physical tools to be a strong defensive CAM or an effective attacking 8. But I still think that if he is going to succeed and be a plus player at that level, there's a good chance he will either have to move back or get more defensive focused at his spot. I could see him doing well as an 8 somewhere higher up. Adding some selective offense. I struggle a bit more seeing him as an impact 10 at the places that would play him unless he improves a bunch. I simply don't think he's good enough (yet) to play 10 at teams that are stacked / at the very top. Which puts him in a situation where he's very skilled and can finish, but isn't running the offense. At the level we're talking, you're more of a free 8 to get PT, rather than a 10. Also, if his price tag is really $50M ... not a lot of teams out there for him.
Malik's progression up the pyramid has been very good. Bayern II-> Bayern (cup of coffee) -> Rangers (SPL YPOTY)-> PSV (Eredivisie Best X1, POTY). I believe his next stop will be another positive step up the ladder In evaluating Tillman teams will be looking at a #8.
Malik s not a CAM or #10 so not sure what your point is? For PSV he has primarily played as a CM on the left in a 4-3-3 (16 matches.) In the first half of the season he was played at LFW in the 4-3-3 (7 matches). As Beale his manager said back during his Rangers stint, he is a #8.
Poch had compared Malik to Dele Alli. "If we talk about talent, maybe they have similar talent, but of course, they came from different backgrounds. Malik, we need to use our experience to try to challenge him to compete in this way. Because if Malik competed the way that Dele used to, for sure he has the capacity, the talent, the body, the power, everything. "It's true that he's still young, and has a character that we need to help to express a little bit more. But he's an unbelievable talent." https://prosoccerwire.usatoday.com/...alik-tillman-dele-alli-mentality/75685233007/ If you look at Dele's goals for Spurs you can see similarities with their shots from the left hand side outside the box.
Yes, it was both a positive and negative comparison. If he had Dele's competitiveness, he has the tools and skills to be a beast. But this is what he said about Dele: "Of course, Dele Alli was an animal, very competitive. He was unbelievable when he arrived at 17 years old from MK Dons. [It was] impossible to stop him. We are not talking about playing football, we're talking about competing, killing everyone — teammates, opponents. Sometimes we needed to stop him and say, 'Calm [down], we need to arrive in a good condition to play.'" That's not Tillman. I don't think you can learn that at this age, but he can up his aggressiveness and fire.
This is a great talent assessment and comparison. Encouraging. The will to compete is lacking not just in Tillman, but in several players in this group. Pochettino has his work cut out for him.
The real competitors are basically a-holes and want to win in - everything. It consumes them. probably not the best people but you need a few of those. Dempsey was that on the field but totally different off. If Malik could learn a bit of that ...
There are some players who are great from day 1 on the National team. For others it takes a little longer to find their footing. I'm not really all that concerned. We see the talent that the man possesses from his play at PSV. I'm watching him for PSV and don't see a lack of a "will to win." Not at all. So, I don't know where that's coming from. Watch the damn games. All it takes is a good performance in the next USMNT game for perceptions to change. Right now, as we've said, part of the issue is simply identifying what his role is on the national team. There are other players in this position. Johnny Cardoso hasn't had a particularly strong outing for the USMNT yet.
I don't believe that Malik lacks the will to compete. You don't make the lung bursting defensive runs that Malik makes late in matches if you lack the will to compete. As Poch rightly said, Dele and Malik come from different backgrounds. Malik could be more aggressive but he just has a very laid-back personality. Dele Alli was the stereotypical volatile, very angry athlete from a very broken home; Alcoholic mother and out on the streets at 13. While Malik and Timmy don't come from money their upbringing did not create the same rage against the world.
Reports that CP is pulling out of Gold Cup. We are going to find out about Tillman one way or the other. Not that it’ll stop the squabbling.
Might ruffle feathers, but CP making the right call here. The next year will be non-stop, he could use the rest.
Pochettino was very clear in what he said, and he is right. When Pochettino says “express yourself” goofy American Euro wannabes think that he’s talking about trying more flourishes of skill like Derek Zoolander in the cologne commercial or something. What he’s actually saying is to dictate what happens on the field. To have an impact on what happens.
You are wrong that Malik lacks the will to compete, that is just nonsense. It is also not what Poch said.
He'll be 23 in a few days, but he is likely to make at least a couple more big jumps over the next few years. Players generally improve for quite a while past that age. That price tag reflects the number of years left on his contract, which gives PSV a lot of leverage. That said, I wouldn't put it past a team to offer 25M for him, and if he really wants to, he could put PSV in a difficult position that puts pressure on them. A club like Leverkusen could provide this scenario. I'm not suggesting that the tactics or coaching are the issue. What I'm suggesting is that Tillman maybe needs/needed a little of an adjustment period in order to be his most effective self. Maybe he needs to feel more comfortable with the coach's message or how his teammates interpret that message or something like that. By possible "team culture" issues, I wonder if Malik feels completely comfortable around his US teammates off the field. That could be an underrated hurdle in all of this. Not that he would dislike any of his US teammates, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little while before he feels completely comfortable around them. I'm sorry, but the prospect of a US roster that doesn't include Malik Tillman right now is certifiable insanity. Who knows how his international career will unfold, but he has all the makings of a potentially top top player for the US.
Malik does not have to be a Dele Alli or a Jermaine Jones. That is just not who he is. You are right you can't learn or fake that internal fueled intensity.
PSV don’t play a 433 with two 8s, as we would define it on this board. They aren’t playing a CM like Liverpool with Wijnaldum and Henderson. It is much more like City with KDB and Silva or Ajax back with Sneijder and Van der Vaart. This system is the textbook example why we created the 8/10 term. PSV have so little to worry about defensively that their players spend relatively little time doing the 8 part of that equation. Heck, Malik is second in the league in high turnovers forced behind a ST. Do we think that’s because he’s spending a bunch of time defending center circle to his own box. The Dele comparison from his manager is apt. If Malik is a big league AM then he has a chance to be worth €50m. If he’s an 8 then it becomes an even more uncertain value proposition.
Players can be squeezed at a position. Let me put it another way: if Gio were healthy and playing, my depth chart at CAM would be Gio, then Luna, then Tillman with Pulisic also playing at the top if that's where we chose to play him. I don't think that's certifiable at all.
PSV plays a classic Dutch 4-3-3 typically with Veerman at the #6 and Tillman and Saibari as dual #8s. It is a Dutch 4-3-3 so there are no designated differences between the CMs but typically Saibari is the one making deeper runs into the box while Malik plays outside the box and is more active in aggressively counter pressing and defending passing lanes against the break.. Reminder that Barca paid $75M + upside of another $11m for 22yo CM Frenkie de Jong in 2019 after 2 years as a starting CM for Ajax. FdJ did not have Malik's offensive numbers, producing in the Eredivisie 0G 7A his first full year and 3G 3A his 2nd year at Ajax. Frenkie's UCL numbers were good for a young player but were not at the level of Malik's stellar UCL production.
This version of the Dutch 433 has two 8/10s, that’s actually more in keeping with the true Dutch spirit. Saying 8 implies a pretty balanced division of two-way labor between defense and attack and this leans too heavily towards attack. FdJ was a high volume, press resistant, pick the ball off the backline and progress it guy who looked like the next Busquets. He was much more highly regarded than Malik. He’s also been something of a disappointment. What’s Malik’s profile in CM if his attacking game doesn’t translate? A good in 1v1s (on both sides of the ball) connector who can execute around the box but maybe does not impose himself enough on the game? -Wijnaldum moved to England for €20m, that’s like €26m in today’s Euros. His move to Liverpool was for €36m adjusted for inflation. -Fulham got Dembele from AZ for cheap, €8.4m adjusted for inflation. He went to Spurs for €25m adjusted but that was a release clause. -Kovacic went to Inter for €15m adjusted and then to Madrid for €50m adjusted and then €56m adjusted to Chelsea. -Barella went to Inter for €32.5m adjusted. -Brighton bought Mac Allister for €10m adjusted. Liverpool then signed Mac Allister for €43m adjusted (with possibly €25m in incentives although that is unclear as some reporting said it was a release clause). -Gravenberch, who had a more clear CM profile and broke out earlier, went to Bayern for €20m (€26m with all the add ons) adjusted. Liverpool then bought him for €40m. -Liverpool bought AM Szoboszlai for €72m adjusted after he moved from Salzburg to Leipzig for €43m. As a Liverpool fan I would not pay €50m all at once for Malik to backup Szobo and Alexis. Unlike those two guys he’s not proven in a top 4 league. As one can see all the big transfers came after those guys were proven in top leagues, except for Szobo who got the benefit of the AM premium teams will pay for the goals that kind of guy will produce. The biggest medium league to big league transfers for a CM version of Malik were Wijnaldum and Gravenberch who went for €20-26m adjusted for inflation. Paying €40m for him is still a pretty big bet even if you think he will produce like an AM against top 4 competition. A €50m price tag is more like a signal that PSV don’t want to sell him than an actual price tag.
You can't allow a player with Tillman's combined characteristics of quality, form, and youth/experience to be "squeezed" off the roster (assuming it's the US roster we are talking about). Only taking two attacking midfielders while leaving Tillman, who you could also justify in a narrow winger spot, would be absolute bonkers.