In his last 7 in UCL against the Top-5 and Sporting Arsenal(CM in 433): 20/24 passing 2 key passes 3/9 duels 4 recoveries xA 0.48 SofaScore(7.0)4th Dortmund(CM in 433) 17/23 passing 2 key passes 8/16 duels 0/4 fouls/fouled 7 recoveries SofaScore(7.3)4th Dortmund(LF in 433): 35/41 passing 4/9 dribbles 2/3 long balls 7/16 duels SofaScore(6.8)8th From this season: Juventus(LF in 433): 31/34 passing 2 key passes 1/1 long balls 5/11 duels SofaScore(7.1)3rd Sporting Lisbon(LF in 433): 36/40 passing 2 key passes 4/6 long balls 6/7 dribbles 14/20 duels 1/5 fouls/fouled SofaScore(7.8) vs PSG(DM in 4231) 34/41 passing 5/11 ground duels 4 clearances 2/2 fouls/fouled 8 recoveries SofaScore(7.2)5th vs Girona(CM in 4123) 1 goal 2 assists 46/55 passing 6 key passes 0/2 fouls/fouled 5 recoveries SofaScore(9.9)MOTM
Tillman makes the Champions League team of the week for the second time in a row.... has any other USMNTer ever done that, like EVER? Maybe Pulisic? Introducing your Team of the Week! 🆕@cryptocom | #UCLTOTW pic.twitter.com/es4hrs6sCp— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) November 28, 2024 1st: Florian Wirtz 2nd: Malik Tillman3rd: Mateo Retegui4th: Julián AlvarezAnother Player of the Week award for Wirtz! 🏆@PlayStationEU | #UCLPOTW pic.twitter.com/WnrBOOd7DY— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) November 28, 2024 🥁 Introducing your Team of the Week!@cryptocom | #UCLTOTW pic.twitter.com/uKBLH5F0L7— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) November 7, 2024 Tillman >>>> Pulisic in Champions League it's just math 5 matches in, Malik Tillman leads the UEFA Champions League in Chances Created (18). Christian Pulisic is tied in 4th place (13) Christian Pulisic tied for 12th in UCL goal contributions through round 5, Malik Tillman tied for 7th What's funny is we have people here who say that dumb USMNT fans totally overrate the player pool which is worse than Canada (a country smaller than California with like three professional teams) maybe around New Zealand level, and we have people who say that the US should be calling up guys like Cristian Roldan, and we have people who say that Malik Tillman sucks and shouldn't be called up to the national team... and at least some of them are the same people.... and they think they're so much smarter than everyone else lol
Or that, Who cares, it's Shakhtar Donetsk. Like anyone can grab a brace in the last 5 minutes of regulation any CL, to bring you level in essentially a do or die match. This is a team that: Beat Barcelona, and won 3 games in the group stage last year. Beat Leipzig during a disappointing '22-'23 run in the group stage. Drew Inter in a disappointing '21-'22 group stage run. Beat Real Madrid home and away in '20-'21, and drew Inter home and away. Beat Atalanta and tied Manchester City in '19-'20. I don't know where there at these days, but if you look through their CL history over the last 15 years it is littered with wins and draws in the group stage against anyone and everyone. They're probably the best performing side in that time period of the road apples in the group stage you expect to get rolled. They've even advanced to the knockouts 4 times since 2010. They don't suck, like, at all. In terms of CL clubs that aren't big 5 or say top Portuguese, or Dutch clubs, they just might be the best performer, period. Just cruising through their CL history, I think I count 30 group stage and knockout stage wins since 2010-2011. But lets pretend Shakhtar sucks, and even if you don't believe that, well, they were down a man, and well, even if the goals had nothing to do with taking advantage of them being down a man, well, again, they were tired and they sucked. It's mind numbing. Admittedly as mind numbing as our inability and his inability to translate this in the shirt, but performances like that, reinforce x100, why it is worth the effort. He literally pulled two goals straight out of his ---, while they were down 0-2, and the clock read 86:50. One goal was taking advantage of goalie positioning, the other was a picture perfect shot that would have gone in if they'd had 15 guys on the field rather than 10. It really is pretty simple. He has skills we lack, he has the ability to produce goal dangerous chances at any time, for himself, or others, and we have what, 1 or 2 guys total that can do that magically out of nothing on the regular beyond him? It's crazy to pretend we can live without figuring out that talent.
According to Club Elo Shakhtar are the 123rd best team in Europe. Around the level of Lorient, Koln, St. Pauli, Espanyol, Venezia, PAOK, Midtjylland, Southampton, Dinamo Zagreb, etc…
You often tell me to ignore the extremes of the argument; I'd say so here. There aren't a lot of posters that don't want him called in. There's simply folks saying that people are overrating him. Opta has Shakhtar as a good but not elite MLS team. That may be underselling them because their league probably drags them down (you can only beat other teams by so much). I don't know how a red card doesn't affect the defense. Even a banger has to allow for the free shot that may not have happened with another defender. Frankly, if you're a PSV fan, it was embarrassing that you were down 2-0 for as long as you were. Malik does have a skillset that we don't have a ton of. Good short vision, good touch, nice passing. I don't think he has the ability to produce goal dangerous chances at any time for himself or others, though. He's not a guy you can simply pass the ball to and he's going to create something. These were well timed scores, for sure, but he's not doing it on demand. Why does he do better with PSV than with the US? I suspect it's in large part because he's a dude that plays off others. (Banger excepted, but those are few and far between for everyone.) It's quick back and forths with a lot of skilled players, playing a Dutch game and all able to play that way. And all able to practice so they know everyone's next move. He also clearly doesn't like to move a lot. Last camp, Pochettino tried to play him in the CAM role, but our version, unlike PSV's, involved a lot of dropping back to get the ball and then moving it forward. Pulisic is the type of guy who can do that. Reyna is, too. I suspect Malik could ... but it's not his game. It's not his instinct. He sat waiting up top for a pass that he could play off to someone ... except the pass never came because it was actually his job to go get the ball, not let it come to him. I don't think there's some insanely easy unlock here that no one can figure out. I think he's very comfortable in the PSV system that doesn't demand a lot of him in terms of bearing the weight of the game. The easier unlock for us isn't trying to get Malik to become "the man" -- which is possible but is definitely a mindset change -- but rather simply getting more talent out there so he can play a similar role.
Who amongst us doesn't see this goal and immediately think "Well of course, it was against the 123rd best team in Europe..." Goal of the Year? 🤯#PSVSHA #UCL pic.twitter.com/SUV1Ik0iRg— PSV (@PSV) November 29, 2024
Apparently having 10 men dropped them from 123rd to number... whatever the 2024 San Jose Earthquakes defense is ranked Relive the final minutes of PSV - Shakhtar Donetsk 💥😱#PSVSHA #UCL pic.twitter.com/u8CXjAUX0c— PSV (@PSV) November 29, 2024
He likes playing between the opponent's lines. That's how PSV use him. Up until his more recent stints as a 6 or 8.
I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. It's utterly pointless. We're on different planets, and I appreciate the analytics, based analysis, but there's some forest for trees pieces being missed here. Nobody anywhere has ever said he's some monster stud for the USMNT. He's done largely ---- all for the shirt, and generally not even been "mid" let alone "good," the only point going on here is that when you're doing what he's been doing for the last 3 seasons counting this one, its upon the fed, the coaching staff, and Tillman to figure out how to harness that for our national team's good, rather than pretend he sucks, or punish him for what happened in a handful of starts in '23 and '24 and mostly sub ons. The simple point is the truest. We need to figure out how to use what he does well because we simply do not have a lot of talent that can accomplish what he's done the past 3 seasons in Europe, even w/all the inconsistencies of committment, effort, and contribution. It should be ----ing obvious that this is so, and its mind boggling to me that it isn't. And for some reasons I'm being told Shakhtar is ---, when this team qualifies for CL every single year, and has done piles of damage the past near 15 years (And before that, i wasn't looking, for all I know maybe they were kicking --- in '00-'10, I simply didn't bother to look). Freaking 30 CL wins for some whatev's team out of Ukraine currently dealing with a war with Russia, since 2010-2011, 4 trips to the knockouts, even one year where they made the quarters. Are they as good now as their peak (probably a decadeish ago)No, of course not, but they aren't trash either. Kept it close with Arsenal away, drew with Bologna, as usual, they play teams pretty tough generally (did get their ---es handed to them in one game by Atalanta) Sometimes I think we just miss some of the most basic things, and some ways its particularly humorously applied: two years ago it was: well, he only scored in CL qualifying, not in CL, and not against Rangers, then, last year, it was, those assists don't count with my preferred stat site, I don't care if he's the guy who earned the PK, and now it's just, "meh, Shakhtar sucks and was down a man". Next month it will be:, "Well, the CB had hemorrhoids, and the 6's girlfriend broke up with him 2 days before their knockout match". Goalposts, goalposts, goalposts. I concede everything in the USMNT shirt, and I concede that maybe he isn't the best match fit for system, and is at best a supersub or whatever, but do I think the staff and he need to figure out how to turn those 34ish goals and assists for PSV, into goals and assists for us. I find myself shocked at times how sanguine people are with simply waiving away stuff like that match. It's just kind of crazy to me. Hell I even concede it may never work out. Sometimes players just never become relevant as internationals no matter how good their club form, but with someone doing what he's doing, we should probably be damn sure that's true, especially considering this team's issues with generating goals when a handful of guys are missing.
His team was losing at the time, Hirving Lozano had just bricked another shot, and Tillman stepped up and delivered to tie the game. It’s the Champions League. You can’t just dismiss the opponent.
I have the feeling that Pochettino will work out a way for him to contribute. Tillman is about to make a solid jump in club level from PSV, which is already one of the best-run clubs in Europe. All the USMNT has to do to figure out how to get the most out of Tillman is to call Earnie Stewart.
Well he's getting a move to a top 4 league next summer in all likelihood. So all the debates about whether or not he can do it vs better competition will be settled in the not too distant future. What's not being acknowledged here is by virtue of not playing in a top 4 league Malik doesn't face the better Elo ranked teams often. And that is the reality of players playing outside the top 4. On the rare occasion they do see a top club in UCL, that is a club who is elite and finished top 4 in a top 4 league. Anyway, the way scouting works in a league like the Ered is to look at the player profile, success and attributes vs the clubs the player does face, then try to project that player profile and attributes at a higher level. If you're looking for a good sample size vs the higher level you're doing it backwards and out of order. And right now Malik is one of the hottest targets across Europe who currently plies his trade outside the top 4-5 leagues. Yet he's got a weird target on his back players with far less upside in our player pool don't have. Curious stuff.
Jamaica’s Leon Barley ran rugged in EPL, but did nada in their shirt. When Brazilian fans watched Real Madrid game, they asked who is that #7 guy. Answered he is a Brazilian, but fans wondered why they never saw him on the field.
I think the why is mostly a speed of play thing. But I am curious if he can take a step up that ladder. Maybe Pochettino can help him, but it’s likely something that happens at club level.
Well, this isn't true, and that's why people keep talking past each other. He's in people's best 11. People here and other places have proposed running the offense through him. I've seen player rankings with Malik as the third best American player. That one pundit called him the best player in the Eredivisie. The question people keep asking is why someone with such great stats is seemingly poor for the US. There are people who think he's trash as well, who think he shouldn't be called in. That other side is just as silly, IMO, as least aside from a motivational technique. But there are also a lot of responses, including mine, that are a response to that first group. That think he should be a star for the US because he's doing very well at PSV. When someone points out that most of his competition is well below his team, or this game was against a team with 10 men, I'm not, and I suspect the other posters are not saying that Malik sucks or should not be called in. It's just that a lot of people here overrate his PSV performances if he they think he's a Pulisic level player or a star player for the US. The gap between his perceived PSV play and his US play is perhaps threefold: 1. Doing this for PSV isn't as impressive as many think it is 2. His role on PSV fits him perfectly, and they play a game perfect for him: the Dutch game played with a lot of very skilled Dutch-style players 3. Maybe there's also some nerves / lack of willingness to get physical For one, this is my above point. Me and several other posters do want him still brought in and played ... it's just the idea that he should be a star for the US that I don't really agree with. He should be better. I don't think he's an upper echelon player right now. As for what he does well, we know what he does well. I think this is what frustrates me is how little people actually watch the player beyond highlights or apparently don't trust what they see. Seriously, right now, I expect that if you've watched full games of his at PSV, you know what he does well. Give me the scouting report, good and bad. He has a soft touch. He has good but not great ball control -- his height can sometimes work against him. Very good for a US player, though. He's a very, very good short passer, both in vision and touch and the quick 1-2 of the Dutch game really works for him. Just watch his role in PSV. He has a ton of goals and assists, but they aren't necessarily specifically getting the ball to him and asking to create -- when they want that they go to Bakayoko. They play off him and he does create, but it's part of a well oiled machine. His physical size is a big advantage in the Eredivisie. A league based on skill and teamwork but he has some oomph to him. It's less of an advantage and more of a prerequisite in international play, where the game is rougher and less organized. Thing is, while Pochettino is bringing in more short passing, etc., we haven't really played like PSV at all for the US. Right now, our offense with Pochettino is the CAMs going back and doing that secondary break thing; it's not six guys in the attacking third playing patty cake with the ball. Tillman is good on the break for PSV, but he's not asked to do what Pulisic has been -- take the ball through three guys banging on you and then make the pass. Tillman can make the pass; but he seemed unwilling to do the first part. (Ironically, Berhalter's intended offense was much close to what PSV does most games -- but the physical nature at times really seemed to get to him.) His best game for the US was when he was put as a CDM and had a limited role. It's not his best role, but he did so much better when he could be part of a plan rather than be the focal point. My point is: we know what he does well. He may develop to be more, for sure. But I don't think there's some repressive magical unlock here that suddenly he's a star. Getting him to a role like at PSV is going to be kind of hard because to get the players around him that is needed makes it harder to put him on the field. Like, if you had an attack with him, Pulisic, Dest, Reyna, etc., I think he's going to look much better. But is there room for him there against anyone you need to defend against? He's shown he really can't be a Pulisic replacement. I also don't think he can do what Reyna did at our best -- basically play both an 8 and a 10. I think he can play his role for PSV very, very, very well. In Poch's Tottenham system, that might actually be that inverted RW role -- I'd bet with Dest at RB and Reyna at CAM, we'd see some fireworks. Shakhtar isn't shit, and no one said that. But it's not some juggernaut. Calling Shakhtar 120th in the world isn't that insulting. There's a lot of teams in the world. And given that at that level there's not a lot of difference between 80th and 150 -- basically that gap is the same as #1 v #10 ... no is saying that they are shit. It's the other way around for me: there are very few truly elite teams and the rest of the talent level in the World is a lot closer than people think aside from a smaller elite. The bell curve widens quickly. People simply overrate a lot of the teams in the UCL. People overrate teams able to keep games close. More importantly, people underrate what going down to 10 men does. We went through this with the Panama game and we're seeing it in this thread -- it's not surprising PSV scored absolutely shit all until Shakhtar went down, then suddenly was very dangerous? Shakhtar was up 2-0 until the Red Card -- so Shakhtar isn't shit ... but like, 10 men means something, folks. I mean, have you seen his first goal? That's a straight keeper error that isn't even open against 11 men. It's a smart play, but it ain't repeatable for any team. But either way, it doesn't matter if he has a goal against a really good team, either. It's about consistent performance. Matt Hoppe had 5 goals in three games against Bundesliga teams and absolutely was trash. For some reason this fanbase and board need these firm delineations. Big Five minutes. Wait, no! It's UCL minutes! Guess what -- there's no magic line that this dude is good and this dude is bad based on where they play. I'm not sure how much evidence we need to see on this. Malik is amazing for PSV and trash for the US Joe Scally has 100 starts for Gladbach but can barely pass forward Matt Hoppe had 5 goals in 3 starts and wasn't even USL level We constantly see guys in the Salvadoran League shut down Tim Weah or Christian Pulisic This has over and over been blamed on the coach. But we have a new coach. And the players are still the same players -- we can see Joe Scally not pass forward for Gladbach as well. At some point, it's time consider that maybe there's a pretty massive overlap of talent out there. That also, opponent, game state, teammates and fit do matter, and that simply playing in the Champions League or for a big team does not guarantee superiority. It's also time to note that the economic dynamics of Europe have changed drastically so that a lot of big teams in second tier leagues are not nearly as good as they used to be.
Right. He doesn't move a ton. I mean, it's PSV -- it's lots of coordinated, organized passing between a bunch of skilled players. He finds a spot, receives a pass, and generally makes a very smart, very good pass very quickly. And then makes a run. So far, Poch has basically taken our lack of that skillset and said "we're going to make passing really easy for almost every single one of you except our three really offensive talented players and we're going to ask them to do pretty much everything." The way Pochettino has played over the first four games really hasn't had that exact role. We saw him try to play that against Mexico when that almost certainly wasn't the role, and we couldn't get the ball to him at all. Perhaps had he played that with Pulisic getting him the ball, we'd have seen more of his positives. But in the last game against Jamaica ... that role was Pulisic's. He's not starting over Pulisic and he doesn't do what Christian does. He could've started him at RW, but Musah was up and down the wing the whole game ... again, Malik physically can do that but that level of activity isn't his jam. He could've played LW but Weah was creating at a level that I don't think Malik has in terms of individual creation. I do think Poch could have adjusted -- I really want to see Pulisic (and Weah) play off Tillman. But that's going to require more talent in other places to allow an attacker to play like Tillman. Right now those positions are doing multiple roles or more defensive roles. In the other three games, where the LW and the CAM played sort of dual 10s, Tillman did get a chance to play in one of those roles. But without someone in the CDM roles (and no Dest) to get the ball forward ... he got isolated up top. Get Dest back, play him with Pulisic, maybe even just Tessman back there, and I think you see a much more dangerous Tillman. But if Reyna is back by then ... he's on the bench because Reyna does all that and more. Put him as a second striker if we can balance the team. None of this is to say that Tillman CAN'T become that guy ... but what I've noticed is that the very best players are very flexible in roles they can play. But the next tier down play like they play. Brenden Aaronson plays like Brenden Aaronson. Asking him to do something else ends poorly. Asking McKennie to adjust his game does not. Right now, Tillman is in between the two groups, but he plays like he plays no matter where you put him. So in that way, he's more like the second group than our stars.
No weirdness. People react to other people's statements. Every time Tillman does something well, someone posts that other people are idiots for not thinking he's a superstar. Some people put him in their Best XI. People post that they disagree. That's not a target; it's a discussion. Yes, there's some folks who think he really sucks, but I ignore them just like I ignore Excellency's anti-McKennie obsession or Nietzsche's anti-Reyna obsession. I mean, so far, Mauricio Pochettino thinks he's not starter material, so I don't think it's exactly a vendetta to state that.
Yup. It's about looking at the whole picture. Club and country. Good games and bad games. Can't cherry pick if you want to have the best chance of projecting how a player will do going forward. We can have a rational debate about how to weight various aspects of performance for different players. Sadly we don't see much of that around here.
Which is not to say that will be the case in six months. Our team still has a ton of young players who are progressing but usually not in a linear fashion. I think our best 11 is pretty fluid. Then you add injuries. I think Tillman will be an important player for the national team. But there is a pretty wide range of possibilities, both near-term and long-term.
Agree. I think Malik's challenge for the US and playing time is somewhat simple. He's at his best surrounded by similarly skilled talent and in an offensive position. (I think we can all agree he's not really a grinder type, and while people grow, I suspect that's the not the route he goes.) But if we have a lot of our best offensive talent on the field, where does he play? Who does he supplant? Can he improve enough to supplant a McKennie or a Reyna? Does he defend well enough to take a spot on a field with our best offensive talent there? Against Jamaica at home, we were often rolling into attack with just 3-4 players, hitting quickly. In the other matches, we rarely got above 5 attackers. The striker has really been the only guy staying forward. And that is a hallmark of Poch teams -- he moves numbers across the field. It's rare to have players camp. If someone like Tessman develops into a real regista, that could open things up to keep one of the center mids more forward. But right now, the back is so poor across the board that you need more versatility and all around play from those spots. Back before Tillman got to PSV, there was a lot of discussion of position. I'm still not really sure he can play CAM at a high level. I mean, he's not Bruno Fernandes or something. If he's staying central, he needs to defend more and do more things, I think. At the time I thought he needed to move forward or more likely, move back to more of an attacking 8. I still think that's what is going to be asked of him in a Big 5 League. Maybe I'm wrong -- maybe he will be good enough to play at a higher level the way he plays at PSV. But the way PSV plays ... not a lot of teams do that. And I don't know that the US gets there, ever.
Tillman is earning the opportunity to join the core group of the US. He is growing within the national team as well. One thing that people forget is that the USMNT is a higher level program than PSV. You have experienced guys from big clubs who can't get into the starting 11. Tillman is making the jump up a level now under Pochettino. He looked very good against Jamaica and there's no reason he won't continue to exert himself on games and become more and more influential.
It’s almost like things change as a player goes from a teen who only has academy experience to a starter on a good team in a lower third tier league to a starter on a pretty good team in a higher third tier league in their early 20s. It seems like the crux of the discussion hinges on how well he was performing in the past, how well he will do in the future, and whether or why his club performances have translated to the international stage, along with the specifics. Those categories are broadly what we spend most of the time talking about. My take has been and is that he is very talented, but like almost every player in history, has had to learn to translate talent into onfield performances. As players do this they become more consistent and more impactful and thus better. Malik is no exception. I think early on with Rangers one can find me saying he’s a bit passive and inconsistent and you can find managers all the way up to Bosz and Poch who echo similar/related comments along with some supporting evidence from Malik and his teammates. Of course one could have just watched ball and seen indicators of this. Malik has improved on these things. He has learned to translate ability into performance. He has gone from not good enough to impact the game against top teams, to can hang against top teams, to maybe he can be an impact player against them. Making that last thing concrete and consistent are the next steps in the progression of a young talent. He’s probably going to have the chance to show he can do it week in, week out against top league competition in 2025. Where does that leave the USMNT. Well my position on Malik has also been that he has improved and his low sample of actual minutes does not accurately reflect his current ability to perform. Maybe the competitiveness issue Poch has spoken about impacts the ability to produce performances but, over time, it would have to be far worse than Poch has let on to prevent Malik from being a capable starter and a member of our first choice squad.