I think another big part of it, frankly, is that a large portion of the fanbase wildly overrates him because he's on PSV and spends a lot of time acting like he should be a star with the US and it's completely and utterly baffling that he's not. I just saw someone on Reddit claim he was our 4th best player. Other people were pimping him ahead of a healthy Reyna. I don't dislike Tillman, nor do I hate him, but we just have too many fans who simply do not incorporate anything but club, stats and highlights.
lol - lmao even. He’s been consistently panned as dreadful. Doesn’t mean over the course of 550 minutes you can’t find a decent pass from a professional footballer.
Are these users in the room with us? Any proof for this claim? You won’t find any receipts for your claim for me.
Well, in fairness, his valuation is basically right there with Pulisic, Reyna pre-injury, McKennie etc. Scouts view him as a top 5 or 6 player in terms of value in the market place, for now. It is worth noting his value has exploded since the summer of '22. I get that he's not a top anything US player. He hasn't done ---- so far, and I take your critique seriously, it would help explain why he struggles with us a great deal. But in terms of talent, the crazy fans aren't so wrong really either, value to the US, absolutely, perception of talent by the scouting market, much more in line with the crazy fans. Figuring out how to make him valuable for us is a big issue, it simply may not be possible, in any set up we use, and he doesn't strike me as a guy we should be erring toward building anything around, otoh, considering perceptions of his talent? We should probably figure out how to get the most out of what he brings to the table, and then use him, when those skills are actually useful to us within Poch's set up. I don't think, like some other seem to, that he should simply be tossed out due to lack of production in limited minutes, and it's worth noting, the entire team has been hot garbage virtually the entirety of the time he's been available (he debuted summer '22, got a Sept '22 call up, then missed the WC, march '23 and summer '23 call ups, and this was the last period of time in which the team was functioning at all, particularly in the attack). So yeah, a lot of excuse making, but it's a truism that the team has largely been total --- during the period of time when he started getting regular call ups (Fall '23 to the present), so that's a part of the story here too. Personally, I get your perspective, and that's certainly a part of it too. Fans see him logging two dozen goal contributions last year and its not surprising that they figure he's got to be one of the better players in the pool. The truth is more nebulous and uncertain because of the league itself. We'll have a better idea of his true level once he moves, hopefully to the Bundesliga, but there's no arguing whatever he does well, we haven't seen it in the shirt.
I think the most misunderstood determinant of a player’s success is “fit” — fit with teammates’ skill sets on the pitch, with the coach’s preferred style of play, and with the opportunities available positionally on the team. It is a tough thing to measure or operationalize for analytics people, and it is an amorphous thing in any case. And the difficulty of understanding it’s components make it easy for less analytical fans to decide that a player is “good” or “bad” apart from their situation. But I hope Poch can unlock the talents of Tillman and Johnny that seem to be clearly on display with their clubs.
What? On transfermarkt? Rumors that USMNT twitterati pump up as fact. (also, he's listed at $25M there; Christian is at $50M -- that's a massive gap). Transfermarkt is an algorithm without a ton of basis or good track record. Someone told me the other day that the fact that Bayern has a buy option tells you how much they value him. No, the fact that they haven't exercised said buy option tells you how much they value him. At below said buy option. Who are these scouts? I've never seen anything from any scout on Malik. Granted I don't know any. I've seen hype from his own club, for sure. He's 22, and will be almost 23 by next window. If he doesn't move then to a top flight club, you should ask yourself if these scouts really value him. Let's not compare him to Christian. Christian actually moved -- not rumored -- but moved for 64M to Chelsea at age 20. And I am baffled that anyone could watch Malik and compare him to a healthy Reyna as in the same range. But I'd love to find a scout who, health accepted, would equate them. But an actual scout. To risk beating a dead horse, you are not quoting a scouting market at all. You are quoting internet evaluations. Transfermarkt is not actual market value. The only real data we have is this: Malik Tillman was sold to PSV for 12M. PSV valued him at 12M. Bayern thought 12M was more valuable to them than Malik, but saw enough upside to give up a bit of cash for a buyback. We also know that despite a great year last year statistically, Malik Tillman was not sold. There were not even any rumors. Now whether that is because PSV were uninterested in selling, or because the buyback clause creates issues, or whether there just wasn't that much interest ... I mean, we didn't even hear ANY poorly sourced rumors. So before we go saying people aren't crazy for thinking he's Pulisic level ... maybe we should put the brakes on that, because from what I can tell, that's entirely driven off a transfermarkt valuation that has ... what basis? I mean, there's one dude that wants to punt him. I think we should try to make him work. But my point is what is the basis for people thinking he is the #4 player or should be a star, etc.? I think he has underperformed for the US to some extent, but from what I can tell, the large portion of why people think Malik should be Reyna or Pulisic level in attack is: 1. Lots of goals and assists playing mostly MLS-level comp on a super team 2. Participation in the UCL regardless of actual performance 3. A website with a vague algorithm claiming he is super valuable, and I wonder how much of that is simple PSV He's an attacker -- $10-20M is a flyer for a lot of these teams at that position. And so that number doesn't even really make me expect a star. But what I don't get is that you can just watch him, and he's not Pulisic, and he's not Reyna. Period. He should be better for the US -- there's some really struggles with whatever it is (physicality I think?). But like ... I continue to be baffled that people will watch actual performances and even have concrete data (that being that the Eredivisie is not super competitive) and still ... Badge FC always overrides their basic eyes. Some guys are better for country or better for club, for sure. A LOT of guys excel in certain roles or styles and not in others, and that's a bit of it here. But also, maybe, just maybe, the things that people are using to evaluate players aren't nearly as accurate as they think. Eh, some of this is true but some of this screams trying to make everything on the coach. I've actually largely been a Malik supporter -- I've defended him a lot until suddenly he became the poster boy -- but I think the match against T&T at home is a perfect example. Berhalter actually puts him in a pretty good position for his skills. He's playing a playmaking "winger" but he spends most of the game at the top of the box in the right half space. That's a good place for him because he's close to goal, he doesn't have to range back, and he's in a perfect spot to receive and play back balls. And that's the plan! Dest comes in and feeds him, back to goal and he's supposed to do those really nice short passes he does with PSV to a cutting Dest, or Balogun next to him or the CM. And he simply is wildly inaccurate. I'm not sure if it is a bumpy field (it was in the US) or lack of familiarity with teammates (I'm not sure he and Dest were teammates yet?) or my best guess -- he simply couldn't handle getting pushed around. But he couldn't do basic things. It didn't help that Paredes was also a disaster and Balogun not much better. I guess my point would be, that role wasn't all that dissimilar to his role at PSV. If he can't adapt that much, he's not that great of a player. Guys like McKennie, Pulisic and Reyna had Berhalter as a coach, and were often thrown all around in terms of role ... and they still found ways to excel. If the evidence is all that versus ... transfermarkt? I know what I'm picking. (And after all this, I still think he has value and upside! I think he will look much better for us at some point! I just ... no, he's not Christian-level.) This is where I'm admittedly beating a dead horse / trying to turn an oil tanker, but there's this endless circle where the fanbase plays Badge FC or overrates leagues or uses sofascore or does anything but actually watch the player ... and then the player doesn't perform over and over ... ... and there's never a questioning of the original evaluation. Every fanbase has its blind spots, but it's usually the exact opposite: the performance they see in the moment overweighs other data. It's a bit baffling to me, especially since this circular thinking happens over and over and over.
Dunno why there's discussion about Malik's possible transfer value, and that value depends on how he's perceived by those professionals who actually know how to rank players in the Eredivisie. How you're being perceived a an Eredivisie player has a huge impact on your transfer value. This article sheds light on that: https://nos.nl/artikel/2542914-till...geten-bij-psv-ziet-ook-stevens-hij-valt-nu-op Tillman fades memory of Schouten at PSV, Stevens too sees: 'He stands out now' Franklin Stoker follows PSV for the NOS He sometimes looks a bit nonchalant and introverted, but is also technically gifted, strong and above all an all-rounder. There are a lot of marks to put on PSV midfielder Malik Tillman in the run-up to the Eredivisie clash at Ajax tonight (18:45 CET). The 22-year-old American, in his second season in Eindhoven, is perhaps the PSV player who has made the most impression so far. Tillman has played in quite a few positions at PSV: from left winger to defensive midfielder. And that makes him very valuable to coach Peter Bosz. The coach recently used Tillman in the Champions League duel with Paris Saint-Germain (1-1) for the first time as a defensive midfielder, a trial that was born out of necessity due to the weeks-long injury of Jerdy Schouten. It turned out to be a golden move by Bosz, because Tillman held his own in that position in the Parc des Princes. He then also filled that position well in the match against PEC Zwolle (6-0 win). With that, PSV seems to have found a solution for the temporary absence of Schouten in the person of Tillman. Stevens enjoys Tillman Former coach and player Huub Stevens of PSV even thinks that Tillman is best suited in his new position. "The way I've seen him play, he's developing even better in that position. He has the game even more in front of him in that position. You can really see him stand out now, that's what many people think," said the Limburger. "He's played good games in other positions as well, but now that he's a little lower down the pitch, he has just a little bit more time to make a choice. And that's to his advantage, too." Coach Bosz is obviously delighted with Tillman. "His development is no longer so much in football, because he can already play very well," said Bosz on Friday. "I think he has put a huge development in his personality, because he needs it to become an absolute top player." "Despite his young age, I think he is already performing very consistently and that's what matters. You see that players perform at the top one week and less so the next, but in top football you have to perform every week. And Malik is now working on that development." .
Fabrizio Romano wrote this about Schouten: In the last 24/48 hours of the summer transfer window, Barcelona also tried for another midfielder. This is exclusive information, an exclusive name; PSV’s Dutchman, Jerdy Schouten, was one of the players also being considered by Barcelona. The answer from PSV was very clear; no chance, no way, so the deal was never going to happen, but the interest of Barça was there. So when you're getting compared in a favourable way with this guy, you're transfer value obviously is going to be above par.
Folks come with over-the-top takes on a player then dig in to defend increasingly untenable positions.
Tillman is a bundle of hope while Jones was an incredible wrecking ball. Question is how was Jones at 22? Was he a finished product with all that tackling and energy or did a lot of it come as he got more mature. We got Jones as a finished product and it just adds more fuel to the this team isn't full of a lot of veterans as are most top teams.
yes and it’s also on the player to find ways to to use his strengths in the role he’s assigned and effect the game in positive ways. The dynamic is the coach and his tactics, the player and his abilities, and the other players understanding of how to work together all coming together. Tillman has tons of strengths that he’s just not showed for a variety of reasons. We’ve seen glimpses, but not enough yet.
Well yeah. I don’t understand why posters are comparing the two. The are very different players. I think the biggest problem Tillman needs to solve is how to get more involved when he’s playing for the US.
At ~20, Jermaine was a striker on the Germany U20 WC squad that made the QF in Argentina. At 22 he was an AM for Frankfurth bouncing between BuLi and 2 BL. JJ did not start to become the world-class ball-winning DM until he joined Schalke as a 25 yo. Malik has time and is slightly ahead of JJ's trajectory. Looks like PSV is experimenting with moving Malik into a Rodri type DM role.
This concept of “fit” carries through all walks of life. People often have a hard time seeing and recognizing contextual factors - i.e., the environment - which play so a big role in how someone’s talents come to bear.
Certainly not by anyone who knows much about the game. As Clint posted earlier JJ was also panned by many posters who also knew very little about the game.
lmao. Claim to know something about the game and also claim Tillman hasn’t been dreadful for the usmnt. Laughable.
Did you consider the possibility that his remark was a response your post that he quoted, which excluded the bolded language?
Then it would be disingenuous because he very well knew what was meant. Especially because the post concerned references his 550 minutes for the usmnt. Context you also chose to leave out.
I have not seen much from Tillman at the international level. And he's had enough opportunity to show something. No reason to write him off, but no reason to expect any short term contributions.
Tillman not putting it together offensively for the USMNT doesn't bug me as much as something like his lack of effort/tracking back on Colombia's 3rd goal where he just subs on, jobs back, and the man he should be tracking scores on a late run into the box. To me, that kind of thing is more infuriating than a player being anonymous. As long as a player is producing at his club, unless they prove they are physically just not up for international soccer, should still be getting consideration. Do I also think someone like Diego Luna should also be given a look since with Gio out we need another guy who can be creative and Tillman has yet to grab the bull by the horns? Yes. But not ready to throw Tillman out yet. I just think some expect too much from him while also just not fully appreciating how much of a talent gap there is from PSV to the rest of the Eredivisie