Majority of Americans say Invading Iraq Was Not Necessary

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by ratdog, Jun 11, 2004.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh NC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What was interesting, and new to me, was at the bottom. Half of voters don't know of Kerry's plan for Iraq.

    He's got to fix that.
     
  2. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kerry's got a plan?
     
  3. Yankee_Blue

    Yankee_Blue New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    New Orleans area
    Taken from Kerry's website under the title "A Strategy for Success in Iraq":

    "To establish security and move forward with the transition to Iraqi sovereignty, the President must show true leadership in going to the major powers to secure their support of Lakhdar Brahimi’s mission, the establishment of a high commissioner for governance and reconstruction, and the creation of a NATO mission for Iraq. These steps are critical to creating a stable Iraq with a representative government and secure in its borders. Meeting this objective is in the interests of NATO member states, Iraq’s neighbors and all members of the international community. True leadership means sharing authority and responsibility for Iraq with others who have an interest in Iraq’s success. Sharing responsibility is the only way to gain new military and financial commitments, allowing America to truly share the burden and the risk."
     
  4. Richie

    Richie Red Card

    May 6, 1999
    Brooklyn, NY, United
    Poll Iraqis and ask them if they thought an invasion of Iraq was necessary or not, and see what they say.
     
  5. ratdog

    ratdog Member+

    Mar 22, 2004
    In the doghouse
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We didn't go to war to "free the Iraqis". We went to war because Bush told us Iraq had WMDs that were a genuine threat to us. Most Americans have finally figured out he was at best totally, massively wrong and at worst lying his ass off.

    At any rate, now that the truth is out that Iraq was not a WMD threat and Americans have had time to think clearly about this, the pro-war crowd is in the minority. Which is why the Bushies were so hot-n-hawny to invade while Americans were still scared by 9/11 and before Americans had time to consider what was really going on. Hopefully, we as a people have learned that you don't go around starting wars without a damned good reason.
     
  6. Letterman

    Letterman New Member

    May 3, 2004
    Upstate NY
    Well, actually he did cover this in his Jan 2003 Address:
    "And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation." "And as we and our coalition partners are doing in Afghanistan, we will bring to the Iraqi people food and medicines and supplies -- and freedom."
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh NC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're spending the money. And we're losing soldiers. Who gives a f*** what the Iraqis think, compared to what Americans thing? If Iraqis wanted you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? :D
     
  8. Yankee_Blue

    Yankee_Blue New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    New Orleans area
    I would if they threatened to hang me from it...
     
  9. Penarol1916

    Penarol1916 Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    Chicago, IL
    Then why would they be wanting you to jump off a bridge if they were planning on hanging you from it?
     
  10. Yankee_Blue

    Yankee_Blue New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    New Orleans area
    Is this a real question? How bout this:
    "Either jump from this bridge into the water below or we'll hang you from it."
     
  11. Richie

    Richie Red Card

    May 6, 1999
    Brooklyn, NY, United

    First moron I did not say to free the iraqis. I just said poll them just to see what they thought about it that's all.

    Second for the millionth time all intelligence that everyone was getting around the world from other countrues, even the UN thought they had them. It may have been bad intel but it was not a lie.
     
  12. Penarol1916

    Penarol1916 Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    Chicago, IL
    Honestly, why would they offer you that choice?
     
  13. Yankee_Blue

    Yankee_Blue New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    New Orleans area
    OK, I'll play, let's say its 433 feet from the bridge to the water...
     
  14. Penarol1916

    Penarol1916 Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    Chicago, IL
    How will they take a take picture of your burnt corpse then?
    But really, I don't think a mob would give you a choice, if they want a hanging, they're going to get a hanging. If they're willing to let you jump of a bridge, then they just don't care that much to begin with and they would have beaten you to death rather than hang you.
     
  15. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I think it is different to ask whether something is necesary or to ask whether it is the right thing to do.

    Maybe if there is a dictator who is a homicidal maniac who rapes and tortures his people, seeks weapons of mass destruction and has used them in the past against his people and against neighboring countries and has invaded neighboring countries, it was not necesary to invade his country.

    Maybe if this particular dictator happens to be sitting on the second largest deposit of the resource that makes the world economy go round, and so has the resources to become dangerous to the whole world, rather than just to his poor subjects and neighbors, it still was not necesary to invade his country.

    Maybe if this particular dictator sits in the middle of the most unstable part of the world, and his very presence is an obstacle to ever achieving stability, it still was not necesary to invade his country.

    Maybe if this particular dictator is a sworn enemy of the United States, and maybe if he has tried to murder an American president, it still was not necesary to invade his country.

    Maybe if America, in the past, was partly responsible for helping to feed the monster that became this dictator, and maybe if America, in the past, had promised to the people of his country that it would help them get rid of this dictator, but reneged on its promise, to the point that many people lost their lives due to America's failure to act; maybe even then it still was not necesary to invade his country.

    Of course it was not necesary to invade Iraq. But it was the right thing to do.
     
  16. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Wow. I was just wondering what Bush supporters thought about all the misleading war propaganda, and I guessed that there were a few out there who still believed that it was all just "bad intel." Is this a widely held view, though?

    My sense was that most intelligent conservatives actually would readily admit that the intel was cooked by Bush, but that the war was still an "overall good" that justified the means of bringing it about. That seems pretty clearly to be the position of the neocons calling the shots, anyways.
     
  17. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That would be a neat conspiracy theory, except for the fact that the 'bad intel' predates the Bush presidency.
     
  18. Northcal19

    Northcal19 New Member

    Feb 18, 2000
    Celtic Tavern LODO (
    While it is easy enough to believe that GWB was just hoodwinked by his intelligence, of course that isn't the case:


    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4113438/

    The Bush administration chose not to look at information that didn't jive with the plan, they bashed knowledgable military leaders that disagreed, and then they sent Colin Powell to lie his ass off at the U.N. There was bad info out there, and there was good info. Bush and the Chicken Hawks decided to invade based on what they chose to look at. The rest of the world wasn't clamoring for this action, witness the coalition of the Billing.

    A year later, given that we were wrong about WMD, that the mission isn't accomplished, that the world is a more dangerous place and terrorism is up, that we have become a hated country in the eyes of the world, that the disgraces of our Iraqi prisons and Guantanemo have shown how serious Bushco is about human rights............. well it is just hard for me to believe that there are people still willing to defend this tragedy.
     
  19. TheWakeUpBomb

    TheWakeUpBomb Member

    Mar 2, 2000
    New York, NY
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Defending taking action on Iraq and defending the way the US took action on Iraq can be two separate things.
     
  20. ratdog

    ratdog Member+

    Mar 22, 2004
    In the doghouse
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The trouble with the argument that the U.S. went in to "save the poor Iraqis" is that it is completely inconsistent with way too many of our leaders' actions around the world both past and present. The most succinct rebuttal is "OK, so when do we invade Cuba? Or Myanmar? Hell, I hear those Burmese even have oil!".

    Here is the less succinct rebuttal: The fact is we as a nation don't give a rat's ass about "the poor Iraqi people" just like we didn't give a rat's ass about those poor East Timorese, those poor Guatemalans and El Salvadorans, those poor Hutus or whoever was getting hacked to bits by the thousands in Rwanda, or those poor Nicaraguans (well, until the Nicaraguans drove out our pet murderous dictator Samoza, that is. Then suddenly "we" cared a lot. Go figure.). There have been a whole lot of "poor <enter nationality here> people" that neither the American people nor our ruling class have or do give half a crap about. With regard to Iraq in particular, we didn't give a crap about "the poor Iraqi people" when Saddam came to power, when he killed alot of his people in his futile war with Iran, when he was gassing his own people (with the chemical weapons WE - and the Krauts and the Singaporeans, to be fair- sold him).

    So no, we did not conquer Iraq to "save those poor Iraqis".

    Garcia erases the "Vagisil" portion of my response in the other thread which is actually funny and lets you call people "moron" which is just, well, moronic, actually, truth be told. Nice. Anyway, the word "moron" in your inane retort should have commas before and after it.

    And the WMD experts were busy telling anyone who would listen that even if by some unlikely happenstance Saddam had any WMDs left, they were inert by now. And that's not even getting into Bush's claims to know exactly where the WMDs were, the bogus aluminum pipe fabrication, and other fibs he told which it took reporters and the anti-war folks about a day each to debunk. Which means that even by your argument, we should have either a reporter or anti-war activist as our next president because he/she'd be a lot less dangerously gullible and inept than Bush.

    As for what Iraqis (ignoring for the moment that the term "Iraqis" does not constitute a monolithic group) think, have you seen our casuality figures? If so, I'd say that's your answer right there because the resistance could not operate without a certain minimum of aid from the general population in which they are active.
     
  21. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It is legitimate, as ratdog does, to question the motives that the US leadership may have had for removing Hussein. In war and politics there are usually ulterior motives. I am sure that President Bush had reasons to remove Hussein which were not the stated ones, just like Jacques Chirac had reasons to defend Hussein's regime which were not the stated ones.

    But having said that, I believe that the fact that there may have been questionable ulterior motives does not in any way alter the more significant fact that removing Hussein and the Baathist party was the right thing to do. It was in the best interest of Iraq and in the best interest of the middle east and of the whole world. It should have been approved by the UN. I think that the attempt by France and others to obstruct America in order to keep the Baathists thugs in power was despicable and the US was right to ignore it.

    If people could only separate the significance of what the US and the coalition are accomplishing in Iraq from their personal hatred and distrust of our president, the liberation of Iraq should really be a bipartisan issue which unites us rather than divides us. This should not be at all about president Bush, and whatever motives, real or imagined, we might ascribe to him.

    What America is doing in Iraq is an endeavor that trascends president Bush and it trascends partisan politics. It is an effort that should, (and I am confident that it will), be taken to its completion regardless of which party wins power in November. I am confident that Senator Kerry understands that this was the right course of action, and that if he wins he will make every effort to keep the course. Kerry is now careful not to say much, because he realizes that in order to win he needs the support of some people who just don't get it when it comes to Iraq. But those who think US policy towards Iraq will change will be dissapointed if Kerry wins.

    We cannot seriously equate the effort in Iraq with some other American actions from the past. I presume ratdog means to compare it to American involvement in support of right wing dictators, like the incidents in Chile for example. But this is very different. America in Iraq did not help remove a legitimate elected leader, like Salvador Allende. They helped liberate a people from an illegal regime which was killing and torturing them and had waged war on its neighbors and brought instability to the world.

    What is happening in Iraq is precisely the opposite of the disruption of democracy and the establishment of a right wing dictatorship like Pinochet's Chile. The effort under way is meant to bring freedom and democracy to the country. It may succeed in its lofty goals, or perhaps not, but it has already succeeded in removing the murderous dictator.

    I realize that mistakes were made in the process, and it is unfortunate taht some Americans behaved in a despicable way. What happened at the Iraqi prision was a black eye for America.

    But Americans should not dwell so much on those few regretable incidents that they miss the significance of the great accomplishment that was the liberation of Iraq from Saddam Hussein and the Baathist regime. I believe that America will stay the course regardless of who wins in November, and that freedom will ultimately succeed in Iraq. I believe that this effort will succeed, because I see freedom and democracy as values that most people all over the world, including Iraqis desire for themselves. I believe that the day will come when Iraqis will look back at this turbulent days and will see them as a proud beggining of a new era. And Americans will look back and be proud of what their country was able to accomplish.
     
  22. Frank Cunha

    Frank Cunha New Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    UNION TOWNSHIP, NJ
    we had no business been in Iraq, we did it for Bush's father, and our resources instead should be all over Bin Laden
     
  23. Yankee_Blue

    Yankee_Blue New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    New Orleans area

    I thought it was for oil. Damn.
     

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